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HALO 2 - No bots, and no low-gravity maps in multiplayer: Confirmed
- Thread starter Sai
- Start date
The Faceless Master
Member
strangely, alot of other people's friends who have the attention spans of hummingbirds and brains to match end up somehow managing to get onto xbc/kai... oh wait, it's probably bcause nowadays all you really need to dois have the xbox and pc plugged into the same router then start the app up and it autodetects the xbox(es)...Goreomedy said:
If they are so easy then why has no one done it right yet? I havent played a single game (console or PC, including UT2k4) where i have successfully managed to play for five minutes and not see a bot doing something so retarded even a human n00b would have been shouting "d00d wtf are you doing?" down his mic inbetween the heavy breathing and telling everyone how stoned he is right now.
eso76
Member
I think it would be pretty hard to implement bots in halo kind of gameplay...one thing is having people run in circles and just shoot at the player (quake ) different thing is having them think of elaborate team strategies...
Halo multiplayer is much more about strategy than the average fps, and bots simply wouldn't work, imho, at least on larger maps...sure they would make for busier matches, but it would still take at least 4 human players for the multiplayer to make sense. It could make for some interesting 2 humans vs the cpu world, but that's what the coop mode is for.
I never ever thought halo missed bots, and with live...nah, i would never play against them anyway.
) different thing is having them think of elaborate team strategies...Halo multiplayer is much more about strategy than the average fps, and bots simply wouldn't work, imho, at least on larger maps...sure they would make for busier matches, but it would still take at least 4 human players for the multiplayer to make sense. It could make for some interesting 2 humans vs the cpu world, but that's what the coop mode is for.
I never ever thought halo missed bots, and with live...nah, i would never play against them anyway.
Yeah, I'm kinda confused here. I guess they really want you to play with other people or not at all outside of campaign mode.
This is fine if you're going to play a Crimson Skies/PGR2 setup where everyone checks in before a round starts, but if you're into the Unreal model where the games are constant and bots are there to fill out the teams, then this is very bad news.
This is fine if you're going to play a Crimson Skies/PGR2 setup where everyone checks in before a round starts, but if you're into the Unreal model where the games are constant and bots are there to fill out the teams, then this is very bad news.
Ninja Scooter
Member
bad news guys. I was just a gamestop and saw a group of guys talking about Halo 2 and how much ass its gonna kick and i was like "Did you guys hear the news about Halo2? No bots." and they were like "WORD? No botz up in the multiplayer? FUck that yo im not buying this game anymore! Yo register dude, change my preorder to Metroid prime 2 echos!" The other guy was like "Man, i don't even know what a bot is, but i know if a game doesn't have them, it can't be good!" Looks like its already having a bad effect for Microsoft.
Sure that would be greedy, but I don't think it would be wise to potentially squander goodwill with your customer over a few extra subscriptions that would have little effect on the bottom line.Goreomedy said:
So, in other words, bot AI in most titles actually does a good job of simulating exactly the kind of variety you'll find out there among human opponentsGhost said:
Other than that, I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Are you saying that AI present in singleplayer Halo/2 wouldn't somehow be good enough to carryover to multiplayer modes, even though it already handles multi-side engagements among teams of opponents very well in SP? Are you suggesting that the singleplayer relies less on actual AI and more on scripting to create the perception of intelligent enemies?
Sp3eD
0G M3mbeR
Emulation of a human playing under fair and equal rules is about the highest form that AI can go. Bungie not even attempting to add that into either version of Halo is odd to say the least.
It is not about whether or not the AI is the end all of the multiplayer game AI. People that don't find something wrong about this obviously have never been in a lan game situation where you only have like 4 or 5 people and want to play CTF (Halo's most popular and balanced game mode). 2v2 CTF is retarded.
They are also good practice when you are learning a map. Most times in UT2k4 when I get a new map I will go into the game by myself, run around a bit, then add 3 or 4 bots. They might not be the best competition, however being that they do pick up weapons and health I can guage firefight zones and plan my online attack stratagy accordingly.
It is not about whether or not the AI is the end all of the multiplayer game AI. People that don't find something wrong about this obviously have never been in a lan game situation where you only have like 4 or 5 people and want to play CTF (Halo's most popular and balanced game mode). 2v2 CTF is retarded.
They are also good practice when you are learning a map. Most times in UT2k4 when I get a new map I will go into the game by myself, run around a bit, then add 3 or 4 bots. They might not be the best competition, however being that they do pick up weapons and health I can guage firefight zones and plan my online attack stratagy accordingly.
kaching said:
You're asking a bot to do everything single player enemies do, then handle multiplayer tactics (weapons, maps, teamplay, vehicles, objectives), then asking the xbox cpu to do it what? 15 times over? My point is, its not as easy as you think to implement, as shown by the fact that no one has done it right.
Maybe im alone in this but playing with bots has never been as much fun as playing either a properly designed single player mode or a multiplayer mode against human opponents, halo 2 has both of those, so playing against bots would be very very low on my list of "things to do with Halo 2"
I understand it'd be nice for people without Xbox live, but you've only ever needed 3 friends to have fun with halo 2 multiplayer (1 if you just play co-op)
truesayian
Banned
I"m kinda pissed about the lack of bots in halo... and you idiots dont even say that bots are for people with no friends... cuz that's BS. ..
I can get a group to play halo any time i want... But what i i just want to play the multiplayer by my self, and explore the level, with hard bots, i'm going against... training for when i play with friends... YOu dont get good at halo by playing the single player... That's a given... That only comes with experience... I was looking forward to bots... being able to play multiplayer anytime i wanted.. with out having to hassle with some 12 year old idiots online..
And another reason for bots.. lets say you only have 5 or 6 friends over.. but want to play some multiplayer... cuz honestly half of the maps suck without 16 people.. your team against the bots, or even it out... it's fun either way..
I can get a group to play halo any time i want... But what i i just want to play the multiplayer by my self, and explore the level, with hard bots, i'm going against... training for when i play with friends... YOu dont get good at halo by playing the single player... That's a given... That only comes with experience... I was looking forward to bots... being able to play multiplayer anytime i wanted.. with out having to hassle with some 12 year old idiots online..
And another reason for bots.. lets say you only have 5 or 6 friends over.. but want to play some multiplayer... cuz honestly half of the maps suck without 16 people.. your team against the bots, or even it out... it's fun either way..
Comfort_Eagle
Banned
Wario64 said:
Um....yeah.
I was hoping there would be bots as i dont have, nor do i intend to buy live. Ah well, the single player game will surely keep me busy for a long time.
Guys, this isn't about Bungie being lazy, or about the difficulty of implementing bots into multiplayer... Bungie simply doesn't like bots. They stated this prior to the release of the first HALO. I think this has always been their view.
Mebbe Stinkles could chime in, and make a quick and daring escape before the GA-hordes assault him.
Mebbe Stinkles could chime in, and make a quick and daring escape before the GA-hordes assault him.
No. You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't ask a bot to do everything a single player enemy does, I just suggested that that they have significant investment in exceptional combat AI routines for single player enemies/friendlies that could be leveraged equally well for multiplayer bots, making it easier to implement them overall. Obviously, if Halo singler player bot behavior was mostly reliant on scripting, it would be a much bigger task to implement bots for multiplayer since they'd have to build more AI routines from scratch. But that's not the case here.Ghost said:
Second, I put no numbers against how many bots are required, other than to simply suggest some bots are better than no bots. If they can't do 15, I'll take 7. If they can't do 7 then I'll take 5 or even 3.
Third, when you say "no one has done it right" you're referring to bot behavior not being able to perfectly emulate the behavior of a skilled human player. But that's your requirement, not mine. All I want is access to the kind of bot resources that I have had access to in several other FPS games for at least the last 5-6 yrs. Single-player enemies can't emulate skilled human opponents perfectly so why should I care if multiplayer bots don't?
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
Eh, no big deal.
They'd be nice to fill out empty slots in games, but if the games sells anywhere near as well as some expect to, I dont think that'll be a problem.
They'd be nice to fill out empty slots in games, but if the games sells anywhere near as well as some expect to, I dont think that'll be a problem.
T-1000_Model3
Banned
Not trying to spin any damage control here but I think this game is built soley for getting folks to subscribe to Xbox Live,with the rest of the public being content with more greatness in Halo's cooperaticve play. Anything more and you'd better wait for Bots on the PC version of this game.
Exactly.COCKLES said:
What the hell fun is playing against bots? I might as well play the campaign then. It's people, man!
Then again, I don't play all those big dumb team oriented games like CTF and all that stuff. Just give me some weapons and a bunch of people who want to kill me, and I'm good to go.
Mr. Lemming
Member
Here is that quote I was talking about earlier:
"We just got CENSORED working and it's da bomb! No wait, that's a different game. But this game is going to be damn damn fun, especially for people with just a single box and no Xbox Live, but a bus load of controllers and lots of willing, friendly, yet competitive friends. And to think, we almost cut it! We also got CENSORED working earlier this week thanks to Adrian's magic coding fingers, although that game takes a larger group and larger maps to test, and everyone has been so busy with this Beta and with other looming milestones that we haven't really had time. Yes, it's possible to have too much cool stuff to do at once."
Now is CENSORED, Headhunter and CENSORED Mk II, Territories (Which I liked in Myth damnit) and the "different game" Assault (seems likely)... that I don't know.
"We just got CENSORED working and it's da bomb! No wait, that's a different game. But this game is going to be damn damn fun, especially for people with just a single box and no Xbox Live, but a bus load of controllers and lots of willing, friendly, yet competitive friends. And to think, we almost cut it! We also got CENSORED working earlier this week thanks to Adrian's magic coding fingers, although that game takes a larger group and larger maps to test, and everyone has been so busy with this Beta and with other looming milestones that we haven't really had time. Yes, it's possible to have too much cool stuff to do at once."
Now is CENSORED, Headhunter and CENSORED Mk II, Territories (Which I liked in Myth damnit) and the "different game" Assault (seems likely)... that I don't know.
It has no effect on my purchase of this game, and I will be playing on XBL whenever I'm not playing linked games with friends (the game still has link cable support, RIGHT?), but not having bots IS a disappointment. I'd like to have bots so I can play multiplayer whenever I feel like it, practice, get a feel for the levels, etc. I'm not always going to want or care to play the single player when I'm not online or with friends.
Deliberately gimping a game's feature set to force people to buy an additional service is bullshit. There are times when I want to play against bots rather than other human beings, for a variety of reasons. Sometimes I want to play on the maps that I like, using the weapons and rules that I like, rather than people voting or a server admin choosing for me. Sometimes I'm just not in the mood to deal with griefers, mouthbreathers, and the other idiots that infest practically every public server in existence. And sometimes, I like having teammates who actually listen when you tell them something in a team game. (Even when they're not the sharpest tools in the shed, the bots in most games at least try to follow the player's orders.)
I don't have Live yet, and even though I'm sitting here with this two month free Live subscription pass (from Burnout 3) in front of me, stuff like this makes me reluctant to ever sign up. The business with PSO Xbox being gimped so you couldn't play the game offline without Live had already left a bad taste in my mouth. (No other version of the game, be it on GC or DC, required a net connection to play. I know that PSO Xbox was the XBL pack-in for Japan, and the same reasoning seems to have been at work there as with the Halo 2 bots--MS likely prevailed upon Sega to make the game unplayable in any form for non-Live subscribers in order to boost Live sales.) Now we've got something similar with Halo 2, where the sort of multiplayer bot support that's become standard in other games is deliberately not implemented in an effort to make people 'play together' for an extra $50 a year. It feels like heavy-handed manipulation to me, and I balk at having a company try so blatantly to force me into buying something. It doesn't matter if it's a good buy or not--there's a part of me that feels like if I buy into this, I'm caving in to their thug tactics, and that makes me want to dig my heels in and refuse. Meh.
I don't have Live yet, and even though I'm sitting here with this two month free Live subscription pass (from Burnout 3) in front of me, stuff like this makes me reluctant to ever sign up. The business with PSO Xbox being gimped so you couldn't play the game offline without Live had already left a bad taste in my mouth. (No other version of the game, be it on GC or DC, required a net connection to play. I know that PSO Xbox was the XBL pack-in for Japan, and the same reasoning seems to have been at work there as with the Halo 2 bots--MS likely prevailed upon Sega to make the game unplayable in any form for non-Live subscribers in order to boost Live sales.) Now we've got something similar with Halo 2, where the sort of multiplayer bot support that's become standard in other games is deliberately not implemented in an effort to make people 'play together' for an extra $50 a year. It feels like heavy-handed manipulation to me, and I balk at having a company try so blatantly to force me into buying something. It doesn't matter if it's a good buy or not--there's a part of me that feels like if I buy into this, I'm caving in to their thug tactics, and that makes me want to dig my heels in and refuse. Meh.
shuri said:
I drop more than that on games every paycheck, so it's got nothing to do with cash. Denied. Try again.
Did the thought of people finding fault with Microsoft automatically make you transform into an asshole, like a werewolf on the full moon? Or was my post a special case? If you want to address the points I made, by all means go for it. I'll gladly debate them with you. Otherwise, stop whining and spare me your half-assed personal attacks.
TekunoRobby
Tag of Excellence
This might seem suprising to some people but having bots in Halo 2 never crossed my mind. In fact I never once thought of how cool it would be to have bots in the multiplayer matches, all of it was directed at how enjoyable multiplayer was going to be with my friends.
Tellaerin said:
Well its not like you cant play offline multiplayer with Halo2. Or that you cant play single player unless the game detects an xbl account. I dont really see what's heavy handed about that. I really dont understand why there's a nearly 3 pages thread about not having bots in Halo2. It was never planned. Halo1 didnt have bots neither, yet it was a nice multiplayer game. Metroid Prime 2 wont have bots neither... And no online support to boot. Do we hear people crying about that?
Wellington
BAAAALLLINNN'
Man there are a lot of disappointed Nintendo fans now that Halo 2 has no bots, interesting.
I am disappointed that there are no bots. Sometimes I want to practice and there's no way that's faster and easier than setting bots on the hardest difficulty. Whoever said that this is a waste of some supposedly great AI is right on the money.
I am disappointed that there are no bots. Sometimes I want to practice and there's no way that's faster and easier than setting bots on the hardest difficulty. Whoever said that this is a waste of some supposedly great AI is right on the money.
I guess no one listens when i post it so lets try quoting from Halo.bungie.org
And i cant speak for other members but personally im not "defending bungie" merely defending my point of view that bots wouldnt add anything significant to Halo 2, just like it seems many members are totally insistant on defending their opposite point of view.
DSN2K said:
people think that you can just smack single player AI into multiplayer and it goes from there. that's wrong. first of all they would need to program the bots to roam maps to seek out a target then they must program new routines for other gametypes. etc etc. considering that bungie is still busting their asses to meet the deadline, to say they're lazy is rediculous as adding bots, making sure their quality (which Bungie would *HAVE* to do) plus all the QA that would require... it would have delayed the game a few more months (at least!)
DopeyFish said:
I don't think people understand that you can't just drop in other AI and make it work. Capture the Flag, Headhuner, Assault etc all require very different tactics and AI to make work effectively. Halo 2 is simply massive in scale and ambition, and when it comes down to bots vs robust Live support or bots vs finely polished campaign levels, I'll take the latter in all cases.
That's one thing about Bungie that most people don't understand - if it is not the best they can make it, it doesn't get into the game. There were enemies, weapons (flamethrower) and vehicles that were in Halo and pulled at the last minute because they weren't up to the level of quality Bungie wanted. I would rather have no bots than crappy ones that were spotty or frustrating.
And I almost never get to play multiplayer with others. And I'd still rather have no bots over crappy ones. (that said, I'm getting Live for Halo 2).
Ghost said:
They wouldn't add anything significant to Halo 2 for you, but it should be obvious from reading this thread that you aren't representative of everyone who's interested in the game. While it's not a dealbreaker for most of them, many people are disappointed that something which has become a standard option in other FPS's has been omitted from Halo 2 for no better reason (we believe) than trying to force people to sign up for Live.
GhaleonEB said:
Oh, I realize that there's more involved than just taking the enemy AI routines from campaign mode, doing a cut-and-paste, and dropping the code into multi. On the other hand, looking at the single-player campaign in Halo proves that these guys are capable of kickass AI programming, and would have no trouble coding bots that could play the multiplayer game properly in its various modes. I think the fact that they haven't has more to do with Microsoft's desire to push XBL than any technical obstacles.
TekunoRobby
Tag of Excellence
No sparks in Burnout 3, no bots in Halo 2? When will Microsoft stop ruining our lives and start giving back to the public!
TekunoRobby said:
Oh please. I guess I should've never commented on the sparks, even though the difference in the pictures that were posted was obvious to anyone who wasn't half blind. Better to pretend I'm above noticing the differences in a multiplatform game and turn a blind eye.
(And for the record, I ended up picking up the Xbox version of BO3. Still, both the motion blur and the spark effects on the PS2 version are slightly nicer. No need to bust my balls for noticing.)