Except they are not. There is multiple approaches on how to take the Scarab fights and each mission also gives you an other vehicle to fight them. Scarab fights are one of the best things in Halo 3 and it never felt boring to me. Heck, I soleley replay The Ark/ The Covenant to fight the Scarabs again and again from time to time. But I guess opinions...
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Halo 5: Guardians |OT2| All Hail The Conquering Hero
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Except they are not. There is multiple approaches on how to take the Scarab fights and each mission also gives you an other vehicle to fight them. Scarab fights are one of the best things in Halo 3 and it never felt boring to me. Heck, I soleley replay The Ark/ The Covenant to fight the Scarabs again and again from time to time. But I guess opinions...
Oh I agree the Warden fights were too much, I'm definitely not saying they're better than scarab fights.
I just think the scarabs are overrated and are repeated too many times as well.
Welfare
Member
The Covenant is still my all time favorite Halo level. Damn was it fun, and nothing in the next Halo's even get close to the type of gameplay variety and pure epicness that the level invokes, except for possibly Tip of the Spear.
Halo 5 lacked a good vehicle section.
I can agree with this. I never found the Scarabs to be THAT great, but what Bungie gave you to fight them was what made those sections fun.
Easy Breezy
Neo Member
Warzone game is almost finished and I lose connection with the server.
FFFFUUUUUU
FFFFUUUUUU
ElzarTheBam
Member
Terrible opinion, as always I see.
The scarab fights are a culmination of the scenario they're put in, you're thinking of the fight as a sole entity.
There's so many ways in which to have opportunities to kill the scarab, and you can use anything in the environment to do so, that sandbox experience extends to them.
I've started selling any shotguns and scattershots I get from req packs, usually takes a few shots for me to kill anyone with them. Feels doubly awesome when a single shotgun shot downs me from miles away.
The joys of being put into US servers now and again I'd imagine
¡HarlequinPanic!
Member
This and the teleporting platforms cutscene felt a lot like concessions made to accomodate the fact that you have 3 'independent' AI buddies following you at all times. I get what they were going for (full online co-op with buddies as your squad) but I don't think enough players would take advantage of it enough to justify the structure, especially if it makes us only speculators to some cool stuff.
In general I'm not a fan of PVE games, so maybe I'm just down on that in general. Still liked the campaign for the most part, had a lot of cool moments. Liked 4's a lot more though.
Scarab fights were repeated, but each instance was different.
First time you fight a scarab in Halo 3 is mission 4 I think, all you have is a mongoose and missile turrets. an elevator for easy access onto the scarab
Second time I think you're in a tank. or maybe it's a warthog, it's a vehicle though. there's also grav lifts to help you get onto the scarab
then the double scarab fight where you have hornets.
While Scarabs themselves weren't all that great, it never felt boring because each encounter was different.
In terms of "open sandbox with other vehicles to fight" I'll agree. Even Halo 4 had the Lich encounter which threw more stuff at you. It's probably the only thing I felt was missing from the game (also, it would have been nice to have had as many alternate vehicle paths for running encounters as we did alternate footpaths, for example on Meridian.)
inoperativ
Member
Agreed on the Scarab fights, they're still really fun (although a bit too easy when you know what to do). Disappointed Halo 5 didn't go with a more organic Kraken fight when the tech clearly is capable of it.
Halo 5's ending is really cool in terms of story IMO, it's an exciting cliffhanger which still ties the Halo 5 story up nicely and I think the writers should get credit for that. Halo 2's ending felt very abrupt (for obvious reasons). The fight itself was quite unmemorable as well.
I think the concept of the Halo 3 ending is a lot cooler than it actually is fun to play. Still better than 2/5, but not even close to The Maw for me. I remember finishing Halo 3 and thinking it probably just was rose tinted glasses that made me think it was so much weaker but it just isn't as well designed, The Maw has several routes through every room, better jumps, does a better job making the Warthog handling feel like it's helping you instead of making everything harder than it should be, and so on and on.
The biggest frustration with H3 is that ever tile is coded to blow manually, and so on co-op if you're not close enough the trailing person is going to fall through and be left behind.
The exploding tiles also seem to inconsistently not affect your Hog, or knock it around. And yeah, there are far less successful routes (then again if you're going for time there's really only one good navigable path for the CE trench run too.)
Honestly the Trench run is something that worked wonderfully for the first game and really shouldn't be reused. Halo 4's "Forerunner" trench run just suffered from a similar lack of paths, but at least the "Midnight" fighter setpiece was something actually novel for the series.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
BTB update coming today?
well then, as soon as btb hits I'll play a lot and I usually want to talk during playing. so let's play together.
Samurai G0SU
Member
So no Sprints yet?
I AM SAD MAN.
I AM SAD MAN.
The Lamonster
Member
Is it a bug or intentional that I can't talk to my fireteam while navigating menus?
Gnome Scat
Member
The t-bag at the end perfected it.
Feel the Swift
Member
Really hope that custom game search feature works out well. Would love to run some competitive customs.
BigEvilTurtle
Banned
Is this how bronze is generally? Got my girlfriend to start playing and I feel like she could compete at this level of play. She struggles to move, aim and shoot at the same time but she's managed to get some kills.
I'm pretty sure it goes through Microsoft Cert testing which is now in their hands not 343's.
Only updates have to go through this process
Platinum in Team Arena, Platinum in Breakout, Platinum in SWAT, Gold in Slayer, didn't try FFA yet. Not too shabby for solo queuing like 97% of the matches and probably having a quitter on team once every 3 matches which ended in a loss. Time to poopsock upto Diamond at least. I really dislike this ranking system. Just blows my mind anyone thinks that 10 matches should be difference between Major, and Colonel in terms of Halo 3 ranks. Heck some people play like shit and even get Onyx and that's Brigadier level or above. I don't know. Quitters, no chance to fall below the rank, not displayed anywhere meaningfully. Don't see myself enjoying it for long.
User 73706
Banned
I would take 343 applying fan feedback of "we need more super open varied wide sandbox super battles with branching paths (even though that's pretty much only been in Halo (CE Level) and ONI Sword Base)" and cranking it up to 11 compared to them putting that effort towards doing the same thing with all the "there's no double scarab wow moments" comments any day of the week.
The more I play this game, the more the lack of playlists/gametypes is really getting to me.
I really hope they add more. 4 of the 5 playlist I don't like and only played to see where I would get placed. I like Team Arena, but it's basically Team Slayer with some Breakout thrown in for me.
I really hope they add more. 4 of the 5 playlist I don't like and only played to see where I would get placed. I like Team Arena, but it's basically Team Slayer with some Breakout thrown in for me.
0ptimusPayne
Member
Played a few matches last night with a friend, and had enough Req points for a silver pack..Rolled the dice and finally got the DMR cert right before bed!!
In the weekly update it was mentioned that one of the maps was designed (by the community forger at least) to be a good CTF map. Nothing definitive on what we'll see for game types though.
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
Still trying hard to enjoy Warzone, but it just doesn't work for me. I thought it would be this expansive playlist where you can do anything to earn points for your team, but as it is it's just go to boss, kill, repeat. All these weapons and vehicles and players, but it all just feels empty to me. It's also way too open, not enough nooks and trees and stuff to hide from vehicles. Halo gameplay just feels weird in big open areas.
Arena on the other hand is the best it's ever been. Too bad Warzone sucked the content out of it though, it's so damn bare bones.
Arena on the other hand is the best it's ever been. Too bad Warzone sucked the content out of it though, it's so damn bare bones.
Diablohead
Member
I would play team arena more if Breakout was not in it, I like that mode but not when I want to find objective games, Breakout is a special mode you really need to be in the mood to play.
As someone who was placed in Bronze and played a few matches, no not really. I'm tempted to let my son (who is 9) give it a try though to see how he would handle it. He's fine at FPS movement from lots of time playing Minecraft and some MCC Halo, but I think he might have trouble adjusting to the pace of a multiplayer match.
The few matches I've played in bronze were pretty good, including an incredibly tense 50-49 loss.
Jack The Nipper
Banned
This is my 2nd update to the map issues, I didn't include breakout or warzone as I don't really dig them or I don't play them enough to have a strong opinion on it.
Alright, worked on a part 2 beyond the visuals and moved over to actual map design. Keep in mind this is just my personal opinion and I understand not everyone agrees.
A lot of the issues i am going to bring forth are probably a result of having sprint, clamber in the game. And a lot of the issues can be gotten rid of with taking out clamber, sprint or both.
In the group of pictures we will go over the following ideas that will be covered
Sight lines- these are visble paths that help you keep track of enemies across map, or some where on the map. Also provides lines in which you shoot the opposing team and....
Choke points- these are points that are more or less forced or need to be used in situations
Levels- the basic idea of levels, how many layers is around and how it affects movement and shots
Rush points- I would like to consider rush points as the idea of going around a wall or area to finish a kill or gain entry to a choke point
Cover - cover is the basic idea of getting into a position that makes you had to kill
Clutter- Clutter is an idea when you basically have too many things on the map, in the way or just adding visual points to a map that make it harder to see or move. There is a fine line between Cover, Choke points, Rush points, and clutter. What can make or break it will be covered.
First up let's show some good examples of clutter that many people see mentioned for Halo 5
Pic 1- too many obstacles and varying levels to block movement or sight lines
Pic 2 - this one follows the sight line issues a eve when you do get shots with the sight lines provided you cant do rush points, because going around to finish off kills is blocked by big barries, then layers are a bit more forced and clamber is engaged
Pic 3- Just a lot of clutter and kills sight lines
Pic 4- Just a great example of clutter that breaks most everything, breaks sight lines, breaks rush points etc
Pic 5- Again, the clutter and walls just breaks sight points and forces you must chase people or find them in close range to kill them.
From the halo 3 pics provdied you can see that the clutter and cover provided makes it easy to engage and push in for a kill or push in to your death. In various pictures you can also see how it's easy to spot people in many sight points to go for shots with snipe such as narrows, or to push in for better positions to create a tactical advantage since you were spotting them on the good sight points before they realized where you were.
next up
Rush Points-
Pic 1 - in pic one if I am shooting a guy coming around the tube like structure, I can't easily go around and flank him in the rush point. i either need to rush him straight on, or forget about it. I can try to go around and rush him but he will either be gone or he will push the opposite side. either way, a very hard rush point. Halo 5 has these issues in spades.
Pic 2- In this pic you can see where rush points and levels play a big roll in making the game more hard. I can't easily run around and flush out a good Rush point here. The guy has too many options to run back and we won't be hitting any choke points to kill one another.
Pic 3- Same as above
Pic 4- Just a lot of big walled areas and clutter making kills difficult , needing to push in close
Pic 5- Rush point issues
Pic 6- this is an interesting one, if I am on bridge and I light the guy up across map, I simply can't finish him. I may be able to time some nice jumps to the rocket launcher spawn area but that only helps if he actually goes there. Getting to the rush point and sight line kills here is really difficult. Levels also plays an issue here as well.
More sight line, rush ponits, choke point issues
Pic 1- This is a levels issue, while the halo 3 pic has big walls, the choke points are still more chokeable. In the halo 5 shot the levels and random walls just hurts the basic idea of gameplay.
Pic 2- These big walls that I have been referring to cuts way down on sight lines and makes it near impossible to tell where other players are.
Pic 3- Same as above...
Pic 4- Same as above
Pic 5- Look at how huge these walls are compare to my character on the left- it''s no wonder I need sprint to get around these huge walls, Would take me quite a while to get any sight lines or visibility of people without sprint and this is why we need sprint out, so we can stop with these badly designed maps.
Pic 6- this is a bit of the issues I find when I say a map is stretched out, bad sight lines, bad choke points , this map has most of it all
Even if I get some nice shots on a person, they have easy access to walls, and I have no rush points, no choke points and I have to cover a ton of distance and climbing to try it. With a good team this map is more manageble but it's more work than it's worth.
Distance issues again
Pic 1- not only is there distance issues, it's also a lot of bad sight lines, I honestly would have a hard time finishing anyone off under me, I'd have to chase them or know they are there and even then with then sprinting around everywhere who knows which turn they actually took. Also, even across map on the SAME level provides a lot of sight line issues.
Pic 2- I have to jump up to be shot at, which isn't a huge problem, but there is no where to shoot from without standing up in broad day light, other wise I can't see anything anyways, this is almost 1/8th of the map in this overall area. And I have no sight lines except up high.
Pic 3- Just more big walls and issues
Conclusion- I chose Halo 3 because I simply believe it has the best maps in the series (my personal opinion yes)
If halo 3 has a big wall, it's part of a specific part of the map like you find in high ground, rocket, sniper area and it provides a decent choke point. A lot of the maps in halo 3 are on a 1 layer flat level, with 2 levels provided in sections of the map. They provide good sight lines , easy to do rush points and they aren't cluttered.
Even when a map has 3 main levels such as construct they are created in such a way that you can still see and flank and get out of situations in unique ways.
maps like standoff provide rocks that give you the choice of pushing out to finish a kill or lose your battle and be killed. Other than that, they don't clutter things up that create issues in getting into your battles.
So, basically I feel clamber and sprint are some of the big issues for the things I have presented, map design is also bad in it self even if sprint wasn't in the game.
Sight lines really are a big failure in the game, can't see where people are, can't get decent shots at each other and make choices to push out to finish a kill etc
*Fathom doesn't show nearly as many of these issues, so I left it out of the comparison.
Alright, worked on a part 2 beyond the visuals and moved over to actual map design. Keep in mind this is just my personal opinion and I understand not everyone agrees.
A lot of the issues i am going to bring forth are probably a result of having sprint, clamber in the game. And a lot of the issues can be gotten rid of with taking out clamber, sprint or both.
In the group of pictures we will go over the following ideas that will be covered
Sight lines- these are visble paths that help you keep track of enemies across map, or some where on the map. Also provides lines in which you shoot the opposing team and....
Choke points- these are points that are more or less forced or need to be used in situations
Levels- the basic idea of levels, how many layers is around and how it affects movement and shots
Rush points- I would like to consider rush points as the idea of going around a wall or area to finish a kill or gain entry to a choke point
Cover - cover is the basic idea of getting into a position that makes you had to kill
Clutter- Clutter is an idea when you basically have too many things on the map, in the way or just adding visual points to a map that make it harder to see or move. There is a fine line between Cover, Choke points, Rush points, and clutter. What can make or break it will be covered.
First up let's show some good examples of clutter that many people see mentioned for Halo 5
Pic 1- too many obstacles and varying levels to block movement or sight lines
Pic 2 - this one follows the sight line issues a eve when you do get shots with the sight lines provided you cant do rush points, because going around to finish off kills is blocked by big barries, then layers are a bit more forced and clamber is engaged
Pic 3- Just a lot of clutter and kills sight lines
Pic 4- Just a great example of clutter that breaks most everything, breaks sight lines, breaks rush points etc
Pic 5- Again, the clutter and walls just breaks sight points and forces you must chase people or find them in close range to kill them.
From the halo 3 pics provdied you can see that the clutter and cover provided makes it easy to engage and push in for a kill or push in to your death. In various pictures you can also see how it's easy to spot people in many sight points to go for shots with snipe such as narrows, or to push in for better positions to create a tactical advantage since you were spotting them on the good sight points before they realized where you were.
next up
Rush Points-
Pic 1 - in pic one if I am shooting a guy coming around the tube like structure, I can't easily go around and flank him in the rush point. i either need to rush him straight on, or forget about it. I can try to go around and rush him but he will either be gone or he will push the opposite side. either way, a very hard rush point. Halo 5 has these issues in spades.
Pic 2- In this pic you can see where rush points and levels play a big roll in making the game more hard. I can't easily run around and flush out a good Rush point here. The guy has too many options to run back and we won't be hitting any choke points to kill one another.
Pic 3- Same as above
Pic 4- Just a lot of big walled areas and clutter making kills difficult , needing to push in close
Pic 5- Rush point issues
Pic 6- this is an interesting one, if I am on bridge and I light the guy up across map, I simply can't finish him. I may be able to time some nice jumps to the rocket launcher spawn area but that only helps if he actually goes there. Getting to the rush point and sight line kills here is really difficult. Levels also plays an issue here as well.
More sight line, rush ponits, choke point issues
Pic 1- This is a levels issue, while the halo 3 pic has big walls, the choke points are still more chokeable. In the halo 5 shot the levels and random walls just hurts the basic idea of gameplay.
Pic 2- These big walls that I have been referring to cuts way down on sight lines and makes it near impossible to tell where other players are.
Pic 3- Same as above...
Pic 4- Same as above
Pic 5- Look at how huge these walls are compare to my character on the left- it''s no wonder I need sprint to get around these huge walls, Would take me quite a while to get any sight lines or visibility of people without sprint and this is why we need sprint out, so we can stop with these badly designed maps.
Pic 6- this is a bit of the issues I find when I say a map is stretched out, bad sight lines, bad choke points , this map has most of it all
Even if I get some nice shots on a person, they have easy access to walls, and I have no rush points, no choke points and I have to cover a ton of distance and climbing to try it. With a good team this map is more manageble but it's more work than it's worth.
Distance issues again
Pic 1- not only is there distance issues, it's also a lot of bad sight lines, I honestly would have a hard time finishing anyone off under me, I'd have to chase them or know they are there and even then with then sprinting around everywhere who knows which turn they actually took. Also, even across map on the SAME level provides a lot of sight line issues.
Pic 2- I have to jump up to be shot at, which isn't a huge problem, but there is no where to shoot from without standing up in broad day light, other wise I can't see anything anyways, this is almost 1/8th of the map in this overall area. And I have no sight lines except up high.
Pic 3- Just more big walls and issues
Conclusion- I chose Halo 3 because I simply believe it has the best maps in the series (my personal opinion yes)
If halo 3 has a big wall, it's part of a specific part of the map like you find in high ground, rocket, sniper area and it provides a decent choke point. A lot of the maps in halo 3 are on a 1 layer flat level, with 2 levels provided in sections of the map. They provide good sight lines , easy to do rush points and they aren't cluttered.
Even when a map has 3 main levels such as construct they are created in such a way that you can still see and flank and get out of situations in unique ways.
maps like standoff provide rocks that give you the choice of pushing out to finish a kill or lose your battle and be killed. Other than that, they don't clutter things up that create issues in getting into your battles.
So, basically I feel clamber and sprint are some of the big issues for the things I have presented, map design is also bad in it self even if sprint wasn't in the game.
Sight lines really are a big failure in the game, can't see where people are, can't get decent shots at each other and make choices to push out to finish a kill etc
*Fathom doesn't show nearly as many of these issues, so I left it out of the comparison.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Nipper, your comparisons and analysis of Halo 5 vs. Halo 3 maps are bad, and you should feel bad. None of your pictures show remotely similar situations on remotely similar maps. For god's sake you compare Standoff to The Rig, and Standoff's a BTB map! A BTB map, Nipper! And ALL of your sightline comparisons are trash. You pick the longest line of sight on any given map (or the nearly longest), and you compare it to an H5 screen picked apparently at random.
They say, when the facts are on your side, argue the facts. When they're not, bang real hard on the table. Make a lot of noise, and hope people don't look too hard.
Would you please stop banging on the table?
They say, when the facts are on your side, argue the facts. When they're not, bang real hard on the table. Make a lot of noise, and hope people don't look too hard.
Would you please stop banging on the table?
The Lamonster
Member
Why does nobody ever acknowledge this question?
Because everybody else already knows it is intentional.
Even with different vehicles it still boiled down to "shoot the legs until it falls over". Giving you a scorpion instead of a rocket mongoose didn't really change it up all that much. The hornet scarab fight was okay but the environment was really boring and the fact that the rockets locked on made it far too easy.
Honestly though I've never really enjoyed Halo's vehicular combat in the campaign unless I'm playing co-op. Rolling around in a scorpion is fun for the first 10 minutes but quickly grows repetitive and relying on your AI teammates to shoot for you isn't interesting at all (This doesn't include the Warthog runs through, they were amazing).
Honestly I was perfectly fine with the lack of large vehicle sections and set pieces in 5. They nailed the on foot combat and level design so damn well that I don't think they were needed.
Yeah, these comparisons make no sense...
Honestly though I've never really enjoyed Halo's vehicular combat in the campaign unless I'm playing co-op. Rolling around in a scorpion is fun for the first 10 minutes but quickly grows repetitive and relying on your AI teammates to shoot for you isn't interesting at all (This doesn't include the Warthog runs through, they were amazing).
Honestly I was perfectly fine with the lack of large vehicle sections and set pieces in 5. They nailed the on foot combat and level design so damn well that I don't think they were needed.
Yeah, these comparisons make no sense...
¡HarlequinPanic!
Member
yeah I think I agree with this. Halo 5 simply has different map design sensibilities than some maps in the older titles, and the multiplayer suite is impeccably built around it. I want more maps, and especially more with some visual flavor to them, but I feel like every map feels really good to play in.
lol excellent. I have people now looking at me weird in the office I laughed so hard.
bobs...onGaf
Member
Pretty much every scarab fight had a way for you to board it without taking the legs out - which tended to be the more fun way of taking those things down
The Lamonster
Member
Thank you. Do you mind linking to 343's explanation? Because my buddies and I don't have an imagination big enough to justify this decision if it was intentional.
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
I appreciate the work you did, nipper, but I also don't get the comparisons. Yea, Halo 5 has some bad map design, but it needs to be different because of mobility. If the sight lines/rush points/choke points were like Halo 3 it wouldn't work either.
barneystuta83
Member
Jack The Nipper
Banned
The issue is there is clutter and no sight lines forcing people into close range fights. This just doesn't feel like halo and maybe for what halo 5 is is the real issue for me.
I don't feel I am comparing the gameplay pound for pound as much of what I'm showing what works for a halo game perhaps.
I really hate the low key visibility in Halo 5, and with the faster gameplay you would think you should have more sight lines while keeping the flanking points?
You mean if friends join your in-game party you can't speak to them until after a match starts?
I haven't noticed this because I've been using the dash to form parties. If this is true, it makes no sense...
Warm Machine
Member
This sounds like people complaining that there was too much glow and too many particles in Geometry Wars 2 meanwhile Your Ex Wife is the best player on the planet and can easily see through the noise, as can I.
wesleyshark
Banned
The Lamonster
Member
Yes, exactly. And if you create a party, you can't hear matchmade teammates in-game.
I'd love to see 343's reasoning on this 'decision.' aka "it's a feature not a bug!"
Jack The Nipper
Banned
I can also imagine that 343 would roll their eyes at me and feel I don't get it. I get what they are trying to do, I just don't like what they are trying to do I guess. Not trying to look like I don't understand why they implement more walls and less sight points. It just doesn't feel right for me for the most part.
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