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Halo |OT| HaloGAF Evolved

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B

bobs...onGaf

Member
FyreWulff said:
It's interesting reading this what we know now:

* The entire third act of Halo 2 was cut (according to Staten), which would have made the game more Earth-centered in the final stretch

* That difficult-to-implement game mode they keep talking about we now know was Invasion, and Zanzibar was originally designed around it
Click to expand...

Im actually really happy Invasion wasnt worked into H3, they would have probably modified a few of the other maps to make it work.

I think having the earth centric final act would have really helped H2, but only if they captured the atmosphere from the announcement trailers. The Earth segments on Halo 3 were really weak, and I remember H2 not being as good as I had hoped. ODST and Reach did human play areas better but I still think its my least favourite sort of location.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
bobs99 ... said:
Im actually really happy Invasion wasnt worked into H3, they would have probably modified a few of the other maps to make it work.

I think having the earth centric final act would have really helped H2, but only if they captured the atmosphere from the announcement trailers. The Earth segments on Halo 3 were really weak, and I remember H2 not being as good as I had hoped. ODST and Reach did human play areas better but I still think its my least favourite sort of location.
Click to expand...

They tried to get into Halo 3 as well, Sandtrap was the abandoned Invasion map for that game.

http://www.bungie.net/news/content.aspx?type=topnews&link=Sandtrap_Postmortem

inline6.jpg



Dax01 said:
Yeah. Thankfully Invasion never made it into Halo 3. Would've drained resources from BTB.
Click to expand...

All two of Halo 3's mainly BTB maps? It was Sandtrap and Valhalla with rare appearances by Last Resort until DLC came out. BTB's huge support came in DLC: Standoff, Rat's Nest, Avalanche, Longshore, Sandbox. As it stands, Halo 3 would have ended up with only Valhalla centered around BTB if they hadn't tried for Invasion.
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
bobs99 ... said:
Im actually really happy Invasion wasnt worked into H3, they would have probably modified a few of the other maps to make it work.

I think having the earth centric final act would have really helped H2, but only if they captured the atmosphere from the announcement trailers. The Earth segments on Halo 3 were really weak, and I remember H2 not being as good as I had hoped. ODST and Reach did human play areas better but I still think its my least favourite sort of location.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Thankfully Invasion never made it into Halo 3. Would've drained resources from BTB.
 
S

StalkerUKCG

Banned
Invasion gets a lot of unessacary hate, it's a great game type the only problem with it is it requires unique maps for the most part. If a halo game could ship with more maps Invasion is a very welcome addition in my eyes however it's not core halo to me and much like infection and griffball I'd happily see it pushed aside in favour of developing a outstanding core multiplayer with balanced weapons, good maps and overall quality.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
StalkerUKCG said:
Invasion gets a lot of unessacary hate, it's a great game type the only problem with it is it requires unique maps for the most part. If a halo game could ship with more maps Invasion is a very welcome addition in my eyes however it's not core halo to me and much like infection and griffball I'd happily see it pushed aside in favour of developing a outstanding core multiplayer with balanced weapons, good maps and overall quality.
Click to expand...

It definitely requires more work and testing than normal BTB maps. Even when you're Forging an Invasion map, it can take you a month or more to work out all the kinks.

The higher difficulty in creating one shows: we haven't seen 343 ship an Invasion map as DLC yet. Bungie put out one and (I believe) it's a solid showpiece for what Invasion can do. And it's somewhat disappointing since a built in Invasion setup for Headlong would have been pretty damn neat, the map is most of the way there already. We can forge it in but it you could really make it go with map animations and so on. As it is, we didn't even get one-way shield doors on -any- of the Certain Affinity maps. What does CA have against one way shield doors?
 
M

monome

Member
StalkerUKCG said:
Invasion gets a lot of unessacary hate, it's a great game type the only problem with it is it requires unique maps for the most part. If a halo game could ship with more maps Invasion is a very welcome addition in my eyes however it's not core halo to me and much like infection and griffball I'd happily see it pushed aside in favour of developing a outstanding core multiplayer with balanced weapons, good maps and overall quality.
Click to expand...

Invasion makes totally sense in Halo.

It's been said the team at 343i had made a breakthtrough developping a mode into something far greater, I hope it's Invasion.
 
N

ncsuDuncan

Member
Invasion has promise, but I get too frustrated with its implementation in Reach:

I don't like the phase transitions.

It's too easy for the attackers to beat the defenders to the next objective. The game doesn't give you enough time to fall back and set up your defense for the next wave.

Look at Battlefield's Rush mode - after the first set of MCOMs are destroyed, there is a transition period where the next part of the map is open to the defenders but not the attackers (via a team-specific soft kill zone).

Aside: team-specific soft kill zones would be a great object to have in Forge.

Team Fortress 2's CP mode (e.g. Dustbowl) splits phases into distinct rounds - forcing everyone to respawn after each objective is captured and the map shifts.

Spawning in Invasion sucks.

Bro-spawns feel too inconsistent. I think two squads of three players on each team would work better than three squads of two - you'd get more spawn options. Spawning at a fixed location is too easily camped.

The core phase is too linear.

The fastest way to capture the core is take a direct route, right? It seems like that's often the only way to capture the core. Look at Boneyard, Spire, and Breakpoint: You really don't have any paths to choose from, the only one available is the straight line from the core spawn to the capture zone. That third phase always turns into a war of attrition - spawn, go grab the core, move it 5 feet, die. Rinse, repeat. It plays out the same way every time - victory is just a matter of whether the defenders can slow that process down enough that time runs out. If the core somehow gets reset the attackers are pretty much fucked.

Of course, the straight line is almost a necessity because of the slow core carrier movement speed. I know carrying in third person looks cool, but I'd much rather have the normal speed of a CTF runner if it allowed a level design with multiple carrier paths.

-------
Invasion is a pretty ambitious mode (it's taken three games to finally get made), so I can understand why it isn't perfect. It's a neat way to link three distinct objective rounds and I think there's a lot of potential there. It certainly works well for the asymmetrical nature of Spartan vs Elite gameplay.
 
T

Tha Robbertster

Member
ElzarTheBam said:
According to the HBO family tree, I am your, Myyke's and MorpheusI9's father.

I also had an illegitimate child called HyperTrooper apparently.

Our gramps is BlueNinja!

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/1736/1327939551993.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

Is every member on there? Who the hell would be my father then? And do I have a son? So many unanswered questions!
Click to expand...
 
H

Hypertrooper

Member
Louis Wu said:
It's searchable (at least in the PDF reader *I'm* using).

Elzar's your daddy, too. ;)
Click to expand...
It only shows me blanket file. I know that there are names etc. but they aren't visible for me.

Didn't know that the community would put me in their family tree because I didn't post a lot.
 
W

wwm0nkey

Member
Letters said:
When are you coming to Venezuela?? All the bad things you've heard are not true. Yes there's an 80% chance you might get mugged and/or shot within the first 3 days here but we don't all live in huts, for example.
Click to expand...

Eh better odds than New Jersey or Detroit.
 
L

Louis Wu

Member
Letters said:
When are you coming to Venezuela?? All the bad things you've heard are not true. Yes there's an 80% chance you might get mugged and/or shot within the first 3 days here but we don't all live in huts, for example.
Click to expand...
Heh - we never got mugged or shot while we were there, but we ran into a guy who'd been mugged twice in one day. :)
 
G

Garrett 2U

Member
Was Halo Reach released earlier than it was originally planned?

I remember Frankie saying in an interview that both Halo Wars and Halo Reach weren't released when they were supposed to be.

And also I watched a Bungie dev commentary and the guys mentioned they had to cut a lot out of the game because they didn't have time to polish it all.
They talked about how there was supposed to be a campaign level in which you take control of a scarab and traverse through a city while it was being glassed.
That level alone woulda made the campaign.

Also, those huge monsters on Nightfall were going to have a much bigger place in the campaign. There were going to be multiple types of them.
You were originally going to be able to climb ontop of them and control them.

Also they mentioned another feature that got cut, it seems to funny to be true.. but...
They said they were going to make the Moa ridable.
And not only that, but you could joust on them with Energy Swords.


Just a few cool additions that woulda made the game a bit more enjoyable I think.
Plus if the campaign was rushed, I can imagine how much the Multiplayer must have been rushed.

I know features get cut out for other reasons then the release date being pushed up, I'm just wondering if the date was changed causing Bungie to be caught off guard.


Anyways, here is a link to the interview if you're curious. It is a bit long and in multiple parts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GpmmyrmhJc
 
K

Karl2177

Member
Boomwood said:
Was Halo Reach released earlier than it was originally planned?

I remember Frankie saying in an interview that both Halo Wars and Halo Reach weren't released when they were supposed to be.

And also I watched a Bungie dev commentary and the guys mentioned they had to cut a lot out of the game because they didn't have time to polish it all.
They talked about how there was supposed to be a campaign level in which you take control of a scarab and traverse through a city while it was being glassed.
That level alone woulda made the campaign.

Also, those huge monsters on Nightfall were going to have a much bigger place in the campaign. There were going to be multiple types of them.
You were originally going to be able to climb ontop of them and control them.

Also they mentioned another feature that got cut, it seems to funny to be true.. but...
They said they were going to make the Moa ridable.
And not only that, but you could joust on them with Energy Swords.


Just a few cool additions that woulda made the game a bit more enjoyable I think.
Plus if the campaign was rushed, I can imagine how much the Multiplayer must have been rushed.

I know features get cut out for other reasons then the release date being pushed up, I'm just wondering if the date was changed causing Bungie to be caught off guard.


Anyways, here is a link to the interview if you're curious. It is a bit long and in multiple parts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GpmmyrmhJc
Click to expand...

I still wish this was an on-disc feature similar to the Halo 3 Legendary edition content.
 
T

Tha Robbertster

Member
Boomwood said:
Was Halo Reach released earlier than it was originally planned?

I remember Frankie saying in an interview that both Halo Wars and Halo Reach weren't released when they were supposed to be.

And also I watched a Bungie dev commentary and the guys mentioned they had to cut a lot out of the game because they didn't have time to polish it all.
They talked about how there was supposed to be a campaign level in which you take control of a scarab and traverse through a city while it was being glassed.
That level alone woulda made the campaign.

Also, those huge monsters on Nightfall were going to have a much bigger place in the campaign. There were going to be multiple types of them.
You were originally going to be able to climb ontop of them and control them.

Also they mentioned another feature that got cut, it seems to funny to be true.. but...
They said they were going to make the Moa ridable.
And not only that, but you could joust on them with Energy Swords.


Just a few cool additions that woulda made the game a bit more enjoyable I think.
Plus if the campaign was rushed, I can imagine how much the Multiplayer must have been rushed.

I know features get cut out for other reasons then the release date being pushed up, I'm just wondering if the date was changed causing Bungie to be caught off guard.


Anyways, here is a link to the interview if you're curious. It is a bit long and in multiple parts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GpmmyrmhJc
Click to expand...

I don't think Frankie would know that much about Reach's developments since he didn't work at Bungie at that time. But still, I don't think Reach was way earlier than it was supposed to be. They said fall since E3 2009.

And a lot of features get cut in games. That doesn't have to mean the game is rushed. I don't feel like Reach was rushed at all. Reach is one of the most major bugs and glitches free games I played in a long time.
 
Z

Zeouterlimits

Member
Boomwood said:
Was Halo Reach released earlier than it was originally planned?

I remember Frankie saying in an interview that both Halo Wars and Halo Reach weren't released when they were supposed to be.
Well HW was delayed originally, wasn't it? Isn't that what he meant?
And also I watched a Bungie dev commentary and the guys mentioned they had to cut a lot out of the game because they didn't have time to polish it all.
This is the case with most games, and practically every Halo game to date.
Click to expand...
If severe issues were noticed & the game wasn't delayed then yes, you could argue it was "rushed".
But I'm not sure the full scope of the backlash to Reach Multi was expected.
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
Zeouterlimits said:
Largely speculative (along with some Ske7ch comments) but :
All advertising & coverage (I think the Gamespot interview didn't even mention the Arbiter) focused on the Chief & fighting the Covenant on Earth.
So when the "twist" happened, that
a) we would play half the game as an Elite &
b) we would spend well over half the game not on Earth
-> players reacted poorly. People weren't prepared to invest in him.
I think if people's expectations were better controlled, then there wouldn't have been such a backlash.

It was added by the frustration of the cliffhanger.

What annoys me is that Bungie didn't help improve player investment in the character with Halo 3. God Halo 3's narrative is so minimalistic and the bits that were left in...
*gets pointlessly worked up*
Click to expand...

Good points, and I believe that people did react negatively to that, but I was not one of them. I love that the game turned you on your head early on, throwing what you thought the game was out the window. (Which is off course the time when the game becomes extremely interesting.)

I can only imagine Halo 2 with the original third act. Would have been the most ambitious FPS around (it was already huge).

Don't remind me of how awful Halo 3's narrative is. :/

ncsuDuncan said:
Invasion has promise, but I get too frustrated with its implementation in Reach:

I don't like the phase transitions.

It's too easy for the attackers to beat the defenders to the next objective. The game doesn't give you enough time to fall back and set up your defense for the next wave.

Look at Battlefield's Rush mode - after the first set of MCOMs are destroyed, there is a transition period where the next part of the map is open to the defenders but not the attackers (via a team-specific soft kill zone).

Aside: team-specific soft kill zones would be a great object to have in Forge.

Team Fortress 2's CP mode (e.g. Dustbowl) splits phases into distinct rounds - forcing everyone to respawn after each objective is captured and the map shifts.

Spawning in Invasion sucks.

Bro-spawns feel too inconsistent. I think two squads of three players on each team would work better than three squads of two - you'd get more spawn options. Spawning at a fixed location is too easily camped.

The core phase is too linear.

The fastest way to capture the core is take a direct route, right? It seems like that's often the only way to capture the core. Look at Boneyard, Spire, and Breakpoint: You really don't have any paths to choose from, the only one available is the straight line from the core spawn to the capture zone. That third phase always turns into a war of attrition - spawn, go grab the core, move it 5 feet, die. Rinse, repeat. It plays out the same way every time - victory is just a matter of whether the defenders can slow that process down enough that time runs out. If the core somehow gets reset the attackers are pretty much fucked.

Of course, the straight line is almost a necessity because of the slow core carrier movement speed. I know carrying in third person looks cool, but I'd much rather have the normal speed of a CTF runner if it allowed a level design with multiple carrier paths.

-------
Invasion is a pretty ambitious mode (it's taken three games to finally get made), so I can understand why it isn't perfect. It's a neat way to link three distinct objective rounds and I think there's a lot of potential there. It certainly works well for the asymmetrical nature of Spartan vs Elite gameplay.
Click to expand...

All good points. It could certainly use improvements, but I think the Invasion gametype is pretty good (some small changes like above could make it a lot better). The problem is the maps are terrible. Breakpoint is good, but Boneyard and Spire (especially Spire) are not good.

Interesting that the original Invasion maps that they tried (Zanzibar and the original design for Sandtrap) both sound light years better than either of the shipping maps for Invasion in Reach.

Agreed with Fyre that I really wanted to see an Invasion variant built into Headlong.
 
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