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[Raide]

I'm wondering if they wanted to do some of these things, or they just didn't understand what we want after 2 games...

Because surely there is a way of getting Forge to have simple blocks, colours and flat spaces. I can't believe that so little has been added or improved on in this area.

The Playtest the hell out of MP and get all those fans and focus groups in but I bet you they did nothing of the sort for the Forge Community. Certain Affinity has people that make MP maps the way they like them and Forge is just some lego after-thought for them. That is why we have all these fancy looking maps with objects welded into the scenery.

Hopefully they push on for Halo 5 and actually make a level editing tool and not magnetic lego.

 

[Hydranockz]

And CoD allows you to create your own custom classes.

You're getting it now. You should look towards other AAA titles for featuresets that are feasable in a package containing many, many other things instead of XBLA titles that can literally dedicate their efforts onto one thing (Trials being essentially XBLA Forge).

Edit: Well, perhaps 'should' is a bit heavy handed. What I mean is that the two kinds of games have drastically different development needs and obstacles.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

You're getting it now. You should look towards other AAA titles for featuresets that are feasable in a package containing many, many other things instead of XBLA titles that can literally dedicate their efforts onto one thing (Trials being essentially XBLA Forge).

Edit: Well, perhaps 'should' is a bit heavy handed. What I mean is that the two kinds of games have drastically different development needs and obstacles.

I think I agree - there's a reason why Trials can go full out with a editor mode - I would argue Halo 4 was a huge undertaking for 343 even without considering forge/ theatre etc.

What im trying to say is - 343 has nailed gameplay - they now have a foundation for the future - matching feature parity with Reach is a lot to expect from a first game - most other games have far less content.

If Halo 5 slacks I will be dissapointed - but I can see why 343 would have forge lower on the priority list this time round.


EDIT:

Assassins Creed 3 looks so good - damnit game release dates. If Halo or AC3 came out earlier I could enjoy both this year. Going to wait till January for AC3 I think. I dont think im even going to bother getting Black Ops 2. Dishonoured is also going to be a late purchase. Its just hit me how many quality games are out at the same time.

 

[Hydranockz]

I think I agree - there's a reason why Trials can go full out with a editor mode - I would argue Halo 4 was a huge undertaking for 343 even without considering forge/ theatre etc.

What im trying to say is - 343 has nailed gameplay - they now have a foundation for the future - matching feature parity with Reach is a lot to expect from a first game - most other games have far less content.

If Halo 5 slacks I will be dissapointed - but I can see why 343 would have forge lower on the priority list this time round.


EDIT:

Assassins Creed 3 looks so good - damnit game release dates. If Halo or AC3 came out earlier I could enjoy both this year. Going to wait till January for AC3 I think.

I stil think that Reach tried to spin too many plates. Well, no. Bungie chose to spin those plates and it could be argued that having all those features fostered a lot of communities. It's an massive undertaking to try and keep those plates spinning now though.

 

[Overdoziz]

I wasn't even saying Halo 4 should have it because Trials Evo has it. I'm pretty sure there isn't even a color wheel in the editor itself, only when you customize your bike and character. I used that picture because it shows pretty much exactly what I want for Forge. I personally think that if 343 wants to allow people to create unique looking maps they have to add the option to change the color of objects, at least to a certain extend. Better lighting will make maps look better in some cases, for sure, but it won't differentiate Forge maps from each other that much which has always been a big problem with Forge.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

I think I agree - there's a reason why Trials can go full out with a editor mode - I would argue Halo 4 was a huge undertaking for 343 even without considering forge/ theatre etc.

What im trying to say is - 343 has nailed gameplay - they now have a foundation for the future - matching feature parity with Reach is a lot to expect from a first game - most other games have far less content.

If Halo 5 slacks I will be dissapointed - but I can see why 343 would have forge lower on the priority list this time round.


EDIT:

Assassins Creed 3 looks so good - damnit game release dates. If Halo or AC3 came out earlier I could enjoy both this year. Going to wait till January for AC3 I think. I dont think im even going to bother getting Black Ops 2. Dishonoured is also going to be a late purchase. Its just hit me how many quality games are out at the same time.

I still don't think there are that many excuses for the lack of Forge innovation. Remember they outsourced it to certain affinity. I imagine they probably did ''all'' the work with 343 only looking if the job was done properly.

So 343 worked on campaign, multiplayer, Spartan Ops. Can't say they did much with theater, besides implementing it in the game and removing features. Spartan Ops is also still in progress I think (Or they already have all the 50 missions but are releasing them over 10 weeks). I know they had to Establish a whole new thing but I don't see any excuse why Halo 4 shouldn't be on par with Reach, feature wise.

 

[Hydranockz]

I wasn't even saying Halo 4 should have it because Trials Evo has it. I'm pretty sure there isn't even a color wheel in the editor itself, only when you customize your bike and character. I used that picture because it shows pretty much exactly what I want for Forge. I personally think that if 343 wants to allow people to create unique looking maps they have to add the option to change the color of objects, at least to a certain extend. Better lighting will make maps look better in some cases, for sure, but it won't differentiate Forge maps from each other that much which has always been a big problem with Forge.

There are limitations man, that's all I'm saying. Everything has a cost. The more you squeeze in to the game, the more you have to reduce memory consumption. If Halo scrapped Forge maybe you could get a better theater? Isn't that the sort of idea you'd have?

"Can I trade in Forge for a better Theater?"

Like I've been saying, those plates are spinning. I don't think anyone wants them to leave them fall because that's letting a community fall.

 

[Raide]

There are limitations man, that's all I'm saying. Everything has a cost. The more you squeeze in to the game, the more you have to reduce memory consumption. If Halo scrapped Forge maybe you could get a better theater? Isn't that the sort of idea you'd have?

"Can I trade in Forge for a better Theater?"

Like I've been saying, those plates are spinning. I don't think anyone wants them to leave them fall because that's letting a community fall.

Easier solution is make Forge PC and you export the file to the 360 to run it. All the shadow baking and lighting can be done on the PC.

 

[op_ivy]

one of my students told me he played and beat halo 4 at a friends house on a modded xbox... i immediately threatened to fail him if he spoiled it for me


the good news is - he says its awesome. lol

 

[bobs...onGaf]

I still don't think there are that many excuses for the lack of Forge innovation. Remember they outsourced it to certain affinity. I imagine they probably did ''all'' the work with 343 only looking if the job was done properly.

So 343 worked on campaign, multiplayer, Spartan Ops. Can't say they did much with theater, besides implementing it in the game and removing features. Spartan Ops is also still in progress I think (Or they already have all the 50 missions but are releasing them over 10 weeks). I know they had to Establish a whole new thing but I don't see any excuse why Halo 4 shouldn't be on par with Reach, feature wise.

I think it's more complicated than that though - the more you outsource - the more complicated integrating everything is - I mean certain affinity probably had less time and resources available due to the fact they where reliant on 343 to get the foundation and engine right - I imagine all CA did was geometry construction rather than engine tweaking - could be wrong

I do think CA dropped the ball with the forge pallet - bit that's another argument I feel.

 

[GodlyPerfection]

So, an example of one way of doing this that I was thinking about:

*texturing stuff*

Without texture atlasing that is going to be a nightmare for both runtime and storage. And even with texture atlasing, ever new color still makes a new instance of a material so with enough different colors the game is going to drop significantly in performance due to tons of draw calls. Not only, like you said there needs to be an additional texture per unique texture atlas to address the color masking if you are using non-repeated texturing. I'm no graphics expert, but I definitely think there is a better way of doing it and I'm going to take out some time to write out what I would do with forge if I were trying to create it myself.

Imagine this for Forge objects:

With this you could add subtle coloring to objects and not only bright contrasting colors which some people on here seems to think.

There is a reason this isn't in user editors... for every color there needs to be a new material made, which is a new draw call at least. Sure the texture is the same, but the way graphics works is based on materials, with textures being a part of materials.

So basically it can work with players or anything in which you have a relatively small number of objects for. There is a reason that Halo has pre-selected colors and not a color selector like that... it ensures that there is a maximum number of materials used for coloring.

When you are dealing with forge you have hundreds of objects being shown at one time, which could amount to hundreds of materials... say goodbye to that framerate. So what you are suggesting may be feasible, but there would have to be a LOT of workarounds to get such a system to work which may result in limiting other things in forge.


I'm going to take some time to write up how I think forge should change for future Halos.


EDIT:

Easier solution is make Forge PC and you export the file to the 360 to run it. All the shadow baking and lighting can be done on the PC.

The amount of issues tied to this is absurd... lol. Security being a main one. And I can almost guarantee that Microsoft is going to have a HUGE say in how this works and if it works at all.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

I think your examples of x impacting y technically are flawed Hydranockz, but certainly, no one wants to cut features, it's a matter of choosing your priorities.
For me, I see it as more of a case of "If we want to have Campaign Theatre, it'll mean we'll have to implement XYZ, which will cost ABC time and people resources, so instead we'll funnel those resources back into Campaign and Sp Ops and unfortunately drop that feature."

Oh were I fly on the wall for the meetings where these decisions were debated.

 

[Hydranockz]

I think your examples of x impacting y technically are flawed Hydranockz, but certainly, no one wants to cut features, it's a matter of choosing your priorities.
For me, I see it as more of a case of "If we want to have Campaign Theatre, it'll mean we'll have to implement XYZ, which will cost ABC time and people resources, so instead we'll funnel those resources back into Campaign and Sp Ops and unfortunately drop that feature."

Oh were I fly on the wall for the meetings where these decisions were debated.

How does what you said differ from what I said?

 

[Shadders]

Imagine this for Forge objects:

With this you could add subtle coloring to objects and not only bright contrasting colors which some people on here seems to think.

Motorstorm had a similar customisation thing for its vehicles, you could choose a colour and material type and then they have sliders for rust, scratches, dirt etc. so you can make your car look all smashed up. It's pretty cool and means that out of a fairly small selection of cars you have near infinite possibilities on how they look.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

How does what you said differ from what I said?

You were talking about memory resources.
I'm talking more about budget and development resources, not technical ones.

 

[Raide]

The amount of issues tied to this is absurd... lol. Security being a main one. And I can almost guarantee that Microsoft is going to have a HUGE say in how this works and if it works at all.

Of course. If MS wants to push Halo even further, then this would be ideal. All this Windows 8 + 360 stuff they are trying to push means they can have the links already. I doubt very much they will ever bother with it but its a shame that Forge has not moved past the lego feel it started out with. Maybe its just the hardware holding it back but they could certainly push Forge more than just some shadows and magnets.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

How about every level being made out of forge objects, but built on a flat plane like forgeworld so you can select a map to start on and map "styles" instead of just "grey".

 

[Hydranockz]

You were talking about memory resources.
I'm talking more about budget and development resources, not technical ones.

I was just mentioning the memory as one limitation but yeah, apologies for making it seem like the only concern.

 

[Raide]

How about every level being made out of forge objects, but built on a flat plane like forgeworld so you can select a map to start on and map "styles" instead of just "grey".

Being able to build maps and then tell them to be Snow/Grass/Sand would be more interesting. Maybe they can use something like the Gravity Fields where you can assign a certain section to haver certain properties. For instance, this side of the map has a overgrown grass section, so when it bakes the shadows it also mixes in the grey and grass.

I would love 343 to just add some large empty worlds with fairly flat ground, the option to pick from Snow/Grass/Sand/Space and give enough objects linked to that space to make interesting things. If you pick sand, all the building blocks are sand textures. Throw in a few prefabs for interesting looking objects and off you go!

 

[Zeouterlimits]

I was just mentioning the memory as one limitation but yeah, apologies for making it seem like the only concern.

I guess my point is more, I'm not sure it's a technical reason that we don't have a flat space like Sandbox for Forge.

Theatre is a weirder one with many possibilities that come to my mind as to why it's not there.

 

[Raide]

I guess my point is more, I'm not sure it's a technical reason that we don't have a flat space like Sandbox for Forge.

Theatre is a weirder one with many possibilities that come to my mind as to why it's not there.

Thinking logically, there must be way more memory used on a detailed map with all those caves, bumpy terrain, buildings and then you add all the Forge objects, whereas a basic space without all that clutter must be less memory intensive right?

Maybe they think that giving the Community basic spaces would be a let-down? You can see they put work designing those maps but they build them like normal MP maps, instead of letting teh Community just do what it wants to do.

How long did they spend making those lovely Forge maps, when they could have just made some simple open areas and put the rest of the time into making the Forge tolls better.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Thinking logically, there must be way more memory used on a detailed map with all those caves, bumpy terrain, buildings and then you add all the Forge objects, whereas a basic space without all that clutter must be less memory intensive right?

Eh, I don't want to be too quick to assume that, because there may be a layer of optimisation available to baked in work.

I just find it surprising that there are 3 odd shaped different Forge areas but not one of them is a true blank-slate, not even a small one. Again, I'm more interested in the why rather than the what.

 

[Raide]

Eh, I don't want to be too quick to assume that, because there may be a layer of optimisation available to baked in work.

I just find it surprising that there are 3 odd shaped different Forge areas but not one of them is a true blank-slate, not even a small one. Again, I'm more interested in the why rather than the what.

I know they must do some crazy optimisation for the maps. Forgeworld was pretty massive and you could build anywhere. I am just wondering if a basic area would just make the maps running a touch smoother if there was less background clutter.

They gave Grifball its own court and threw in "Its a Forge space too!" How about the same thing but in different types huh?

 

[Gazzawa]

Eh, I don't want to be too quick to assume that, because there may be a layer of optimisation available to baked in work.

I just find it surprising that there are 3 odd shaped different Forge areas but not one of them is a true blank-slate, not even a small one. Again, I'm more interested in the why rather than the what.

I know why there is no blank slate forge map:

Spoiler

dlc

mind-blowing I know

 

[GodlyPerfection]

EDIT: *DAMNIT I totally accidentally hit submit... lol. I'll be adding to this. I'm working on it. lol... WORK IN PROGRESS and I'll be reposting it.*

 

[kylej]

I agree with you guys, Forge is Good Enough.

 

[Sanjuro]

Wait, you mean you got this:

?

Awesome!

Boo. I scrolled through the thread fast and thought this was a corn dog.

 

[MrCookiepants]

Just played ODST for the first time in anticipation for 4. That was a really cute campaign.

 

[Omni]

Assassins Creed 3 looks so good - damnit game release dates. If Halo or AC3 came out earlier I could enjoy both this year. Going to wait till January for AC3 I think. I dont think im even going to bother getting Black Ops 2. Dishonoured is also going to be a late purchase. Its just hit me how many quality games are out at the same time.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Sooo many games coming out within a few weeks of each other. ACIII was actually sent out to me the other day (have to pick it up on Monday though ), but I'm not going to bother with Blops 2 and Dishonoured for a while. At least until after GTAV is out I think.

 

[NobleGundam]

Just played ODST for the first time in anticipation for 4. That was a really cute campaign.

Play it on Legendary. Very challenging yet rewarding after completion.

 

[TheOddOne]

Finished Dishonored a couple of times already. Time to give that game a rest. I welcome the new onslaught of Vidya Gamez.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Finished Dishonored a couple of times already. Time to give that game a rest. I welcome the new onslaught of Vidya Gamez.

Assassin's Creed 3, bro

 

[TheOddOne]

Assassin's Creed 3, bro

My rant about dudebro.

 

[DeadNames]

Hey guys, I think a new shipment of gamefuel went out. So if it was 50+ miles away, chances are it's closer.

Now I have it near me! Yes!

 

[Tha Robbertster]

Boo. I scrolled through the thread fast and thought this was a corn dog.

This is way better than a corn dog bro!

 

[Conor 419]

Man, I have the sickest ideas for a Neogaf based sitcom, I just lack the means to pull it off.

 

[GodfatherX]

i disagree, forge is not good enough. lighting and better building pieces are nice additions but why should we be limited to 1 tile set per environment? altering textures/color/damage to pieces? altering environments? day/night/weather conditions?

its been 5 years since the first forge, and even then it was a nerfed tool even compared to other console fps map tools. However the controls were simplified and easier to use then most console map tools so it was acceptable. It's clear we are likely never going to get a complex halo map tool, but what we have should have advanced much further then it has to this point. This is not the forge we wanted, nor the one we deserve

 

[malfcn]

I don't understand why in one of the first Forge videos they even say it: "We have heard the fans complain about the grey colors" - and then ignored it.

 

[Plywood]

Why is he sleeping with Plywood?

I don't get it.

edit: Oh, I see.

 

[Omni]

I don't understand why in one of the first Forge videos they even say it: "We have heard the fans complain about the grey colors" - and then ignored it.

Oh? I don't see much grey at all now.

 

[Bsigg12]

i disagree, forge is not good enough. lighting and better building pieces are nice additions but why should we be limited to 1 tile set per environment? altering textures/color/damage to pieces? altering environments? day/night/weather conditions?

its been 5 years since the first forge, and even then it was a nerfed tool even compared to other console fps map tools. However the controls were simplified and easier to use then most console map tools so it was acceptable. It's clear we are likely never going to get a complex halo map tool, but what we have should have advanced much further then it has to this point. This is not the forge we wanted, nor the one we deserve

I highly doubt the 360 could handle this. The framerate would be dropping constantly.

A lot of people are forgetting technical limitations. I am all about Forge and would love to see some of the features that you guys are discussing but do you not think when Certain Affinity and 343 were going over Forge these things weren't on a list of wants? They probably tested some of the features that people want to see that the game was either crashing or dropping to 10 FPS. A stable constant game is a much better option and so features had to be cut.

With that said, the lack of a true Forge overhaul leads me to believe it will be the first thing discussed for Halo 5. New hardware with infinite possibilities. I'll bet 343 has a team already building the Halo 5 engine.

Is it disappointing that we'll have to wait until 5 to have a more significant Forge? Yes, but you can blame Microsoft for making this the longest console generation to date. Blame the console not the developer.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

Oh? I don't see much grey at all now.

I feel that a certain amount of common sense was missing - its still a block monotone colour lol - white/ beige/ grey - it doesn't matter the colour - just that its so monotone.

Have to say though - to me it seems like Forge is a Bungie thing that 343 felt compelled to keep for the community - I dont expect it to be the main concern for them, and so I dont care considering they have other things to prioritise this time round - I just find the (potential) lack of common sense hilarious.

 

[Hydranockz]

i disagree, forge is not good enough.

Who are you even disagreeing with?

 

[Sanjuro]

This is way better than a corn dog bro!

I Love Bees Halo 4 tie-in snack?

 

[Homeboyd]

Who are you even disagreeing with?

Kyle would be my guess. Doesn't appear to know his antics.

 

[BlueScrote]

Got around to watching FUD Part 4 this morning.

Spoiler

Dat magnum and Carbine

 

[Louis Wu]

And an equivalent of 6 halo 3 OTs (7 if you include the beta)

Heh - and one of those was... pretty long.

 

[Conor 419]

Yo, anyone got that gif of Lasky shaking hands with the chief?

 

[Hydranockz]

Kyle would be my guess. Doesn't appear to know his antics.

So he's disagreeing with the stance that no one is actually taking lol.

 

[GodlyPerfection]

*damnit... last post of the page. I'll re-post on new page. lol...