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Halo |OT11| Forward Unto Dong

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R

Ramirez

Member
heckfu said:
I'd be interested to see how you'd feel if you were Nokyard.
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It's hard to put yourself in those shoes if you don't care about it. It's no different than people wanting ranks, and the people who play for fun say it isn't a big deal! Well, to me, losing the ability to prove SLASO runs, & race around a Forge race track is a non issue to me.
 
H

Homeboyd

Member
Woorloog said:
Or a capture card.
Isn't that how Halo CE and 2 speedruns are done? And most other games?
Theater is a convenience for speedruns, it is not required.
Sure, losing it ain't nice but its not like its the end of the world. Expect for panoramas... though capture card and Blind skull could work, though what kind of panoramas one can take with those is somewhat limited.
Click to expand...
The tools are available yes. I could get a pen and pad and write down 50 points for every elite I kill, 10 for every grunt... Who needs scoring?!

Edit: should probably wait for confirmation before continuing much further
 
F

Fracas

#fuckonami
So Grifball gets a ton of support, and campaign scoring and theater get cut.

I thought community focus was a big part of the dev process? This is pretty lame.
 
H

heckfu

Banned
Ramirez said:
It's hard to put yourself in those shoes if you don't care about it. It's no different than people wanting ranks, and the people who play for fun say it isn't a big deal! Well, to me, losing the ability to prove SLASO runs, & race around a Forge race track is a non issue to me.
Click to expand...

Oh, I'm with you man. I mentioned earlier how I never used campaign theater more than 3 or 4 times but it stinks that it got removed.

And my point about empathizing with Nokyard IS different than people wanting ranks because I'm not sure of any community that bases its existence off of 'wanting ranks' etc.
 
H

Hydranockz

Member
Homeboyd said:
I don't know what you want me to say.

Nok, I guess you should just get over it and do what other communities do and get a stopwatch and a video camera.

?

Lets just see what communities come out on the other end. We'll see what communities "are killed" if these rumors are accurate and then we can come back and see if any of these predictions are accurate.
Click to expand...

You say I'm defending the decision to get rid of it. How did I do that? Do I have to say it's sad that those features are gone like everyone else has been saying? Can't that just be assumed because it's the rational thing to feel when something you had is taken away?

People are far too quick on the "you're defending 343" card and it's absolutely not true. I'm talking about what we see in front of us. I don't see a timer/scoring. Does that immediately kill off speedrunning communities? I disagree. Does it make it trickier to contribute to those communities? Absolutely. Everyone agrees with that second one.

Does holding the viewpoint that those communities can still exist mean I am implying 343 have done nothing wrong as a consequence? No.
 
R

Ramirez

Member
heckfu said:
And my point about empathizing with Nokyard IS different than people wanting ranks because I'm not sure of any community that bases its existence off of 'wanting ranks' etc.
Click to expand...

Wasn't that one of the biggest complaints about MLG in Reach?

I know MLG's existence is for tournaments and shows, but in MM, ranks are a pretty big deal for them.

monsterfracas said:
So Grifball gets a ton of support, and campaign scoring and theater get cut.

I thought community focus was a big part of the dev process? This is pretty lame.
Click to expand...

They cater to two of the biggest piles of crap to ever come out of Halo, and you question their community focus? There will always be one community that doesn't get what it wants, but to say they don't care about the community is pretty silly.
 
H

Homeboyd

Member
Hydranockz said:
You say I'm defending the decision to get rid of it. How did I do that? Do I have to say it's sad that those features are gone like everyone else has been saying? Can't that just be assumed because it's the rational thing to feel when something you had is taken away?

People are far too quick on the "you're defending 343" card and it's absolutely not true. I'm talking about what we see in front of us. I don't see a timer/scoring. Does that immediately kill off speedrunning communities? I disagree. Does it make it trickier to contribute to those communities? Absolutely. Everyone agrees with that second one.

Does holding the viewpoint that those communities can still exist mean I am implying 343 have done nothing wrong as a consequence? No.
Click to expand...
No I'm saying, again, that like with Forge (a feature I didn't believe you used), the cuts or lack of improvements to you isn't a big deal. You don't use it. So what if it doesn't get any love? Like ram and heckfu said... Until something you care for passionately gets the same treatment, you'll never understand where these guys are coming from.
 
K

kylej

Banned
Ramirez said:
It's easy to sit there & be an armchair critic and throw out "good enough" sarcasm, but the reality of it is, none of us know what decisions had to be made along the way, or exactly how smooth the games creation was to begin with. Or it could simply be that on the priority list, expanding Forge past what it's always been, simply wasn't in the cards this time.
Click to expand...

Ok but as a consumer, who gives a shit? It was in the last three games, now it isn't.

In this thread people who don't understand development schedules and budgets try to tell people that they're wrong for voicing their concerns by saying they don't understand development schedules and budgets.
 
R

Ramirez

Member
kylej said:
Ok but as a consumer, who gives a shit? It was in the last three games, now it isn't.

In this thread people who don't understand development schedules and budgets try to tell people that they're wrong for voicing their concerns by saying they don't understand development schedules and budgets.
Click to expand...

As a consumer, vote with your wallet. But no one here will do that, so what's the point in discussing it?
 
H

Hydranockz

Member
Homeboyd said:
No I'm saying, again, that like with Forge (a feature I didn't believe you used), the cuts or lack of improvements to you isn't a big deal. You don't use it. So what if it doesn't get any love? Like ram and heckfu said... Until something you care for passionately gets the same treatment, you'll never understand where these guys are coming from.
Click to expand...

You can fuck right off with that thanks.

For the record, I have tinkered with Forge but I struggled with aligning blocks in a quick manner. It was frustrating and even though I had ideas I wanted to see come into fruition, the process of diving into menus and laboriously tryng to align them was too much for me. So for me, Halo 4 Forge is exactly the sort of thing which will circumvent those issues with magnets and the ability to duplicate objects. How Forge came up in a discussion of speedrunning the campaign, I don't know.
 
R

Ramirez

Member
Trey said:
Because it's the place to discuss the Halo franchise.
Click to expand...

You can gripe all you want on this message board, but the minute you hand over 60-90 bucks for that product you feel isn't living up to past expectations, you've rendered your argument invalid. You're telling them that even if they don't give you what you want, you're going to bend over & take it anyways.

I realize one boycott in a sea of millions means little, but what else can ya do?
 
F

Fracas

#fuckonami
Ramirez said:
Wasn't that one of the biggest complaints about MLG in Reach?

I know MLG's existence is for tournaments and shows, but in MM, ranks are a pretty big deal for them.



They cater to two of the biggest piles of crap to ever come out of Halo, and you question their community focus? There will always be one community that doesn't get what it wants, but to say they don't care about the community is pretty silly.
Click to expand...

I definitely think they care about the community. Hell, just Frank and David posting in here is awesome, and leagues ahead of what other game companies do. I just don't get why certain communities get exactly what they wanted while others may have lost something (yeah we don't know for certain, but the silence regarding something as big as this speaks volumes). I understand it's a matter of resources and time, but it really sucks for people like Nok. There are certainly workarounds for scoring/timing/recording (as Hydra said, I'd guess Waypoint will take care of scoring at the very least), but it certainly feels weird to see aspects of the game that I personally thought were crucial features cut.
 
G

GodlyPerfection

Member
I think it is fair to definitely see it from a consumer standpoint and that s definitely something that needs to be considered during the dev process and something I'm sure the folks at 34 takes into account. Game development is more often than not a black box system in the eyes of most gamers and it is important to see it from their point of view. What goes was there before it went into the black box and what is there after it comes out of the other end? Definitely important to see both sides of the matter. We can't expect everyone to know what is going on behind the scenes. It just isn't fair.

Basically we've all got good points to be made... we are all at our resulting conclusions for one reason or another. It is one of the great things about community design, understanding how to mold it into a supportive system is a whole skill on its own and something most developers don't take into account. It is still a fairly under studied field.
 
K

kittens

Unconfirmed Member
The fact that all the slayer playlists are ridden with terrible Forge maps really makes me not want to play Reach. Halo 4 better not meet the same fate. The already announced DLC maps make me hopeful. 343 just has to implement them well.
 
T

Trey

Member
Ramirez said:
I realize one boycott in a sea of millions means little, but what else can ya do?
Click to expand...

Nah. None of the recent complaints are make or break features, generally speaking. You can find the entire product worth the money, but still have issues with certain parts of your purchase.

Buying the thing does not render any complaints you may have invalid.

Even the the most most vocal of Reach haters around here put hundreds of hours into the game.

You can give feedback to the developers of the game.
 
T

TheOddOne

Member
kittens said:
The fact that all the slayer playlists are ridden with terrible Forge maps really makes me not want to play Reach. Halo 4 better not meet the same fate. The already announced DLC maps make me hopeful. 343 just has to implement them well.
Click to expand...
Now add on top Jetpacks and Armor Lock. Nah, never touching that shit again.
 
Pop

Pop

Member
Ramirez said:
You can gripe all you want on this message board, but the minute you hand over 60-90 bucks for that product you feel isn't living up to past expectations, you've rendered your argument invalid. You're telling them that even if they don't give you what you want, you're going to bend over & take it anyways.

I realize one boycott in a sea of millions means little, but what else can ya do?
Click to expand...

Don't knock it before you try it eh.

Only thing that pisses me off is once you hand over the $60 you automatically lose $20 on new games from certain retailers.
 
H

Homeboyd

Member
Hydranockz said:
You're saying I lack the ability to think rationally or empathise with someone who isn't myself.
Click to expand...
I'm saying it about myself as well. You or I can empathize all we want for someone like Nokyard who has built and maintained communities around these features that were (supposedly) cut, but we can't possibly know how someone like him must feel that something he cares for that passionately was handicapped that severely. In addition, empathizing is hard to measure in instances where you tell people like him he can get by using alternative methods. You're right, he can. Guess it's more of a feeling of not getting any love considering what he's done.

I don't know man.. It isn't me. You just have an odd way of showing your empathy.
 
O

Overdoziz

Banned
kittens said:
The fact that all the slayer playlists are ridden with terrible Forge maps really makes me not want to play Reach. Halo 4 better not meet the same fate. The already announced DLC maps make me hopeful. 343 just has to implement them well.
Click to expand...
The implementation of Forge maps into Reach's matchmaking was abysmal, to say the least.
 
H

Hydranockz

Member
Trey said:
Nah. None of the recent complaints are make or break features, generally speaking. You can find the entire product worth the money, but still have issues with certain parts of your purchase.

Buying the thing does not render any complaints you may have invalid.

Even the the most most vocal of Reach haters around here put hundreds of hours into the game.

You can give feedback to the developers of the game.
Click to expand...

This isn't the place for that. This is the place where people go to brownose 343 so they can get into the industry.

Unless it's negative feedback, then you're right, here is the place.
 
S

StalkerUKCG

Banned
kittens said:
The fact that all the slayer playlists are ridden with terrible Forge maps really makes me not want to play Reach. Halo 4 better not meet the same fate. The already announced DLC maps make me hopeful. 343 just has to implement them well.
Click to expand...

What makes a forge map bad?

Is it design or the aesthetics.

Because judging by some stuff iv seen H4 forge maps looks fantastic in comparison to Reach. Some look similar to shipping maps in terms of quality.

Having lighting on those objects does actually give the map a sense of character and that's a big role in how a map is received'
 
A

Akai__

Member
Love how Chris Pucket says "and his teammate is going to score that flag" in this top ten, where Tashi is featured. :lol
It was a Slayer game."
 
K

kylej

Banned
Trey said:
Nah. None of the recent complaints are make or break features, generally speaking. You can find the entire product worth the money, but still have issues with certain parts of your purchase.

Buying the thing does not render any complaints you may have invalid.

Even the the most most vocal of Reach haters around here put hundreds of hours into the game.

You can give feedback to the developers of the game.
Click to expand...

"I wish this feature that had been in the previous Halo games was still there."

Be quiet, you don't understand the development schedule and budget.

"Ok but I'm still excited about campaign, I just want to express my concern over this missing feature because I've come to expect it with my purchase."

Microsoft tried really hard. Don't like it, vote with your wallet.

--- This is actual logic used by people in this thread to defend a Microsoft subsidiary.
 
R

Ramirez

Member
CrazY CroaTia said:
Love how Chris Pucket says "and his teammate is going to score that flag" in this top ten, where Tashi is featured. :lol
It was a Slayer game."
Click to expand...

That link took me to Top 10 LOL plays, I attempted to watch, but they all looked the same. I'll never get those games...

Oh, come off it Kyle, I'm not defending anyone. I even said it didn't mean I agree with the choices. 343 could come give you a BJ & suck your nuts daily, and you'd still find something to whine about sarcastically on here.
 
O

Overdoziz

Banned
kylej said:
"I wish this feature that had been in the previous Halo games was still there."

Be quiet, you don't understand the development schedule and budget.

"Ok but I'm still excited about campaign, I just want to express my concern over this missing feature because I've come to expect it with my purchase."

Microsoft tried really hard. Don't like it, vote with your wallet.

--- This is actual logic used by people in this thread to defend a Microsoft subsidiary.
Click to expand...
I think the biggest issue is that there's just not enough resources to give players everything they expect from a Halo game. Theater, Forge, War Games, Spartan Ops, Campaign, Custom Games. That's a lot of stuff for 343 to work on and that's a big challenge.
 
Pop

Pop

Member
kylej said:
"I wish this feature that had been in the previous Halo games was still there."

Be quiet, you don't understand the development schedule and budget.

"Ok but I'm still excited about campaign, I just want to express my concern over this missing feature because I've come to expect it with my purchase."

Microsoft tried really hard. Don't like it, vote with your wallet.

--- This is actual logic used by people in this thread to defend a Microsoft subsidiary.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Removing features from previous installments seem idiotic.
 
T

Trey

Member
kylej said:
"I wish this feature that had been in the previous Halo games was still there."

Be quiet, you don't understand the development schedule and budget.

"Ok but I'm still excited about campaign, I just want to express my concern over this missing feature because I've come to expect it with my purchase."

Microsoft tried really hard. Don't like it, vote with your wallet.

--- This is actual logic used by people in this thread to defend a Microsoft subsidiary.
Click to expand...

Most people said "aww, that's disappointing" or something similar right from the beginning when the bad news dropped. The defenses you mentioned happened in response to the passive-aggressive attacks on 343's integrity you and others threw out.

Ramirez said:
That link took me to Top 10 LOL plays, I attempted to watch, but they all looked the same. I'll never get those games...
Click to expand...

Me either.
 
K

kittens

Unconfirmed Member
StalkerUKCG said:
What makes a forge map bad?

Is it design or the aesthetics.

Because judging by some stuff iv seen H4 forge maps looks fantastic in comparison to Reach. Some look similar to shipping maps in terms of quality.

Having lighting on those objects does actually give the map a sense of character and that's a big role in how a map is received'
Click to expand...
I've put up with ugly ass Forge maps for going on five years now, and while I hate the monotonous aesthetics, I can put up with it if the map is designed well. It still seems that Halo 4's Forge is only a small improvement aesthetically. And Relay is the only 343-developed Forge map we've seen, right? I'm surprised we haven't seen the ones set on The Ravine and Erosion.
 
R

Rickenslacker

Banned
Ramirez said:
That link took me to Top 10 LOL plays, I attempted to watch, but they all looked the same. I'll never get those games...
Click to expand...
I've been trying to get into a MOBA but the games are just look so uninteresting and require learning to get into. I'll just never understand the popularity. Then that u4ix vid popped up a few days ago where he was equating LoL stream popularity and such to Halo 4 features like not being able to throw flags and being told you're carrying the flag on the top of the screen to make it more exciting for spectators who don't know what's going on. I didn't really get that, because if you need that HUD text even as a spectator to understand that then I question how this hypothetical person managed to live as long as they did to get to watch a Halo 4 stream.
 
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