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Hearthstone |OT| Why tap cards when you can roll need [Naxx final wing out now]
- Thread starter Minsc
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Fragamemnon
Member
So this is my current Freeze Mage, based on Trump's selection (Few cards missing) I've currently got 620 dust with the option to disenchant "Deathwing" for 400, bringing my total to 1,000.
Is there anything you would suggest for my Mage or Miracle Rouge? or just cards that would fit into any deck?
or should I hold out for another 500/600 to get a decent legendary?
I don't think Freeze Mage is reliably playable without Alexstrasza, speaking as someone who went to Legend with it last season. It's like Leeroy in Miracle or Grommash in control warrior, without it the deck is really missing out on its best way to close out games.
The deck is easy to play and super powerful. This trend is consistent with the last two and a half weeks of ladder last season.
nah, edwin is a good card. Unless you don't plan to play rogue you probably shouldn't disenchant him
Pyros_Eien
Member
You can replace Edwin with Questing Adventurer or Mana Addict depending on the deck, or just straight up replace it with something entirely different, and it won't really affect rogue decks all that much, so assuming you do want to play freeze mage, that sounds like a decent idea.
I refuse to DE even The Beast.
Officerrob
Banned
Why? (unless you are at the point where you have most of the cards you want/need).
I haven't even dusted my Millhouse Manastorm.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Incoming black knights! Run for cover!
No, destroying cover is black knight's greatest strength!
edit:
I asked about whether you earn xp in naxx and the response was yes, similar to the amount earned in practice mode: https://twitter.com/CM_Zeriyah/status/486935842259099649
I have never dested anything I didn't have extras of. Both my Millhouse and Nozdormu get used everyday when I play with my Randuin deck to close out a gaming session heh!
TheChewyWaffles
Member
#NoDustingCrew
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I would have kept my Noz if he was 8 mana. Fuck Noz.
Hater! It is one of my most played legendaries, a staple in any true Randuin deck.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I ran him in control war. It was fun. Would have been better in this meta with all the handlocks/miracle that take forever to take a turn.
Professor Lich
Member
I think it'd be cool if Noz was weaker and cheaper, but maybe that would ruin the whole dragon thing they've got going on. Maly and Yser are 4/12 while Alex and Noz are 8/8, with Death at 12/12, all being end game plays. Gives the idea of strong dragon cards that follow the lore I suppose.
I hope one day someone makes a video of all four former dragons on the board and then have the other guy play Deathwing.
Edit: Have to say, having both Warlock Dominance with the Meek quest together is the best excuse to run Murlock and it's been really fun to play.
I hope one day someone makes a video of all four former dragons on the board and then have the other guy play Deathwing.
Edit: Have to say, having both Warlock Dominance with the Meek quest together is the best excuse to run Murlock and it's been really fun to play.
Here is the current Enrage Warrior I threw together because I don't have the cards for control. Any obvious changes needed? I was thinking about throwing out the smith for Leeroy considering his synergy with whirlwind or as a finisher.
Did I face you? The 7/2 berserker on turn 2 is awful.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Here is the current Enrage Warrior I threw together because I don't have the cards for control. Any obvious changes needed? I was thinking about throwing out the smith for Leeroy considering his synergy with whirlwind or as a finisher.
Shieldbearer actually works really well in this type of deck. 4 hp taunt that can easily become a 2/3 with taunt once you hit with taskmaster. And then enrage and you got yourself a 5/6 for like 4 mana.
I realize this is a pretty stupid question (given that the answer is obviously yes), but is there anyone who forgoes all these pre-built decks and instead makes and refines their own decks? I find it pretty annoying to be constantly going up against the same cookie-cutter decks that everyone else on the internet uses. Obviously I understand why people do it, they like to win and don't like to lose, but it takes something away from the game in my opinion. I have a lot of difficulty respecting players who latch onto the same decks as everyone else just so they can win.
I expect a lot of negativity/disagreement here, as the reasons for following strategies and using proven decks is, as stated above, very obvious and common thing to do. Still though, I find it to be an immensely in creative thing to do, and I can't help but look down a bit at those who do it.
Flame away, given the slightly condescending nature of my post, I sort of deserve that, I just had to get it off my chest.
I expect a lot of negativity/disagreement here, as the reasons for following strategies and using proven decks is, as stated above, very obvious and common thing to do. Still though, I find it to be an immensely in creative thing to do, and I can't help but look down a bit at those who do it.
Flame away, given the slightly condescending nature of my post, I sort of deserve that, I just had to get it off my chest.
To make an original deck that is also effective takes a great amount of skill and knowledge that most Hearthstone players just don't have. Anyone who rolls into Ranked with their own decks will quickly realize this, which is why people tend to gravitate toward the popular options. Making your own deck for the sake of making your own deck is just handicapping yourself, so unless you don't actually care about winning games, or are supremely confident in your play, it doesn't make any kind of sense.
Look at it another way. Making your own decks in a vacuum is a recipe for disaster. When creating a deck, you take into account many factors like decks in the current metagame, combos available to your class, curves that play to your classes strengths, so on and so forth. All this knowledge is available out there on the internet, and not taking advantage of all the resources you have at your disposal during the process of deckbuilding is, again, misguided. But if you keep taking bits and pieces from the internet, eventually, you'll arrive at a deck that is not so different from one of the pro builds anyway. So netdecking merely skips the process of slowly iterating on your own build until it reaches maximum efficiency, because someone better than you already did it.
In short, why reinvent the wheel?
It comes down to whether you want to win or if you want to have fun deckbuilding. You can't have it both ways, unless you're a very talented player. I say this as someone who has slapped together a lot of janky MTG decks over the years for my own amusement, but never once did I fool myself into thinking any of them would be competitive, nor would I hold it against others for netdecking in a competitive environment. I would be more bitter if someone rolled into kitchen table Magic with Death and Taxes, but there really isn't an equivalent of kitchen table Magic in Hearthstone. Even Casual matchmaking is mostly a testing/training ground for aspiring Ranked grinders, or people who just want to get their dailies over with (usually by netdecking a fast and efficient build).
Look at it another way. Making your own decks in a vacuum is a recipe for disaster. When creating a deck, you take into account many factors like decks in the current metagame, combos available to your class, curves that play to your classes strengths, so on and so forth. All this knowledge is available out there on the internet, and not taking advantage of all the resources you have at your disposal during the process of deckbuilding is, again, misguided. But if you keep taking bits and pieces from the internet, eventually, you'll arrive at a deck that is not so different from one of the pro builds anyway. So netdecking merely skips the process of slowly iterating on your own build until it reaches maximum efficiency, because someone better than you already did it.
In short, why reinvent the wheel?
It comes down to whether you want to win or if you want to have fun deckbuilding. You can't have it both ways, unless you're a very talented player. I say this as someone who has slapped together a lot of janky MTG decks over the years for my own amusement, but never once did I fool myself into thinking any of them would be competitive, nor would I hold it against others for netdecking in a competitive environment. I would be more bitter if someone rolled into kitchen table Magic with Death and Taxes, but there really isn't an equivalent of kitchen table Magic in Hearthstone. Even Casual matchmaking is mostly a testing/training ground for aspiring Ranked grinders, or people who just want to get their dailies over with (usually by netdecking a fast and efficient build).
The fact of the matter is, the days of personal invention, in games, is dead. The idea is now little more than romanticism and nostalgia. The internet has made individuality exceptionally difficult to establish unless you have a truly pioneering spirit. In any game, particularly competitive ones, there will be forerunners, and followers, the latter of which will always grossly outnumber the former. It was different when your gaming circle would consist of maybe 4-5 people you played games together with, and perhaps 15-20 in your city/county. In those days, you could explore, invent, amaze people with something new, because no one had any idea what they were doing. But now? You're effectively up against a collective of thousands, sometimes tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands.
To think that you, alone, would be able to out-think such a hivemind is... arrogant, to say the least.
To think that you, alone, would be able to out-think such a hivemind is... arrogant, to say the least.
I have a Paladin deck that I've filled with "value" cards that I'm trying to get to work. I don't have Tirion or Cairne yet so I have no idea if the deck is necessarily viable once I've optimized it, but I'm trying at least.
Alex is probably the first card I'd cut if I were to get Cairne or Tirion. Debating the Faceless and maybe the Aldors.
Alex is probably the first card I'd cut if I were to get Cairne or Tirion. Debating the Faceless and maybe the Aldors.
Netdecking is boring. I make my own decks but they are mostly unsuccessful. I get comfort from the thought that when I see a netdeck its just another boring unsuprising opponent, but at least I (probably) provide memorable games when I Far Sight into a turn 6 malygos, or steal a 10/10 Van Cleef with Leeroy+ Mind Control Tech. I might only get to rank 10, but whatever.
Thanks for the great responses guys. I more or less agree with everything you all said. Following established, successful archetypes absolutely is essential if you want climb ladders, particularly given that everyone has access to these successful archetypes. I don't dispute the inevitableity of this, I'm just really bummed it can't be another way. I wish that people cared more about being unique than having the best chance to win. I wish people cared more about having fun than about being competitive (of course, this is a very flawed statement, given that winning is fun).
As is probably apparent, I'm very against the idea of basing my decks off other people's ideas, and because of this I tend to hover around Rank 18 in Hearthstone, very rarely going much lower. While I absolutely have a ton of fun making and refining my own decks and ideas, there is no doubt my decks are much, much worse than what the hivemind creates. Thankfully, I'm nowhere near arrogant enough to believe that my ideas could be better than top players and collected knowledge. Obviously many other people realize this too, so they go and build their decks how the internet tells them to, and why wouldn't they? They want to win, there's nothing wrong with that.
I just wish it could be another way.
How about Knife Juggler + Sorc + double Mirror Image? Against an aggro Warrior. I would have facedesked so hard if I was on the other side of that.
I wouldn't say that this is true in general, although it seems to be pretty true for Hearthstone. There are lots of games where the strategies employed by the best players aren't the best strategies for average players, either directly (players who aren't exceptionally skilled can't execute the strategy well enough) or indirectly (the other strategies that are made feasible because players aren't exceptionally skilled create a different metagame).
MOBAs are a pretty easy example. Average players simply can't execute the strategies that the best players can execute. Average players are much more vulnerable to certain strategies because of a lack of execution skill or a lack of teamwork. Average players are sometimes only proficient with a small subset of the characters, which is important when selecting characters. The difference between the best and the worst player on a team of average players is often much larger than the difference between the best and the worst player on a team of exceptional players, which has all kinds of implications for the strategies players and teams should adopt.
There's some effort put into helping players who are lower than they ought to be, matchmaking wise, move up as quickly as possible. But there's very little collective knowledge out there for average players who already are where they ought to be (which is far from the top). Extreme concern with the high-end meta at these levels always looks a lot like a cargo cult.
Cut Alexstrasza for another Argent Commander or a Stormwind Champion. I would take out the SoJ for a Blood Knight and Redemption in favor of Argent Squires. And since you already have other minions that are hard to remove, DoA should be stronger for you than Sen'jin Shieldmasta.
I was playing midrange hunter (non aggro deck? *gasp*) and a taunted turtle stopped his hijinks so badly that he had to sacrifice a leeroy into it a couple turns later.
ShinNL
Member
And if everyone thought like that, the world would never evolve. Don't see your point.
I both agree and disagree with your post Gotchaye. Agreed in that MOBAs are a good example of why copying the pros simply doesn't work (unless you're already very good). Disagree in that there are fundamental differences between Hearthstone and MOBAs to explain the former.
1) Hearthstone, like all card games, places very little emphasis on experience, and much more emphasis on knowledge, particularly the kind that can be read and copied. Contrast this with MOBAs, where one of the most important skills a player needs to develop is "game sense", which is basically the ability to predict what the opposing team is doing based on imperfect information, kind of like making reads in Hearthstone. Making proper reads in Hearthstone, however, is not nearly as important, and is just one of many skills a pro player needs to give them that 2-3% edge over the rest of the field, which is just a natural consequence of the RNG nature of card games.
Another relevant genre in this discussion are fighting games, where top players all seemingly have a sort of sixth sense that enables them to beat a weaker player despite being on a similar level execution wise. In fighting games, the equivalent of "netdecking" would be copying and practicing the BnBs that theorycrafters develop and share on SRK or your preferred fightman forum. Once a player learns these BnBs, they gain a huge advantage over players who aren't privy to them and, instead, try to create their own combos, much like how netdeckers have a significant advantage over solo deckbuilders. In both MOBAs and fighting games, you can copy certain strategies, but without the experience to back it up, it won't mean much at the highest level of play. Thus is individual creativity is overshadowed by the theorycrafting hivemind.
2) In MOBAs, the highest level of play and the average level of play are, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say, two different games. They might share all the mechanics and gameplay elements, but the contexts are just radically different. On the pro side, you have a group of 5 team members who frequently practice as a team, are usually friends or close acquaintances, share history together etc. On the pub side, you have 5 random people, possibly split into 2 or 3 groups depending on who queued with whom. These people usually go into the game with expectations as to what they want to do, which can bring them into conflict with other players. These conflicts, along communication issues and just generally assholery, can hamper teamwork, and the games frequently become separate 1v1s, 2v2s, etc, instead of a 5v5 with distinct phases, like it is for pros. I don't think it's particularly noteworthy that the strategies pros use don't translate well to pub play. They're in two different worlds, almost like Arena vs Constructed.
1) Hearthstone, like all card games, places very little emphasis on experience, and much more emphasis on knowledge, particularly the kind that can be read and copied. Contrast this with MOBAs, where one of the most important skills a player needs to develop is "game sense", which is basically the ability to predict what the opposing team is doing based on imperfect information, kind of like making reads in Hearthstone. Making proper reads in Hearthstone, however, is not nearly as important, and is just one of many skills a pro player needs to give them that 2-3% edge over the rest of the field, which is just a natural consequence of the RNG nature of card games.
Another relevant genre in this discussion are fighting games, where top players all seemingly have a sort of sixth sense that enables them to beat a weaker player despite being on a similar level execution wise. In fighting games, the equivalent of "netdecking" would be copying and practicing the BnBs that theorycrafters develop and share on SRK or your preferred fightman forum. Once a player learns these BnBs, they gain a huge advantage over players who aren't privy to them and, instead, try to create their own combos, much like how netdeckers have a significant advantage over solo deckbuilders. In both MOBAs and fighting games, you can copy certain strategies, but without the experience to back it up, it won't mean much at the highest level of play. Thus is individual creativity is overshadowed by the theorycrafting hivemind.
2) In MOBAs, the highest level of play and the average level of play are, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say, two different games. They might share all the mechanics and gameplay elements, but the contexts are just radically different. On the pro side, you have a group of 5 team members who frequently practice as a team, are usually friends or close acquaintances, share history together etc. On the pub side, you have 5 random people, possibly split into 2 or 3 groups depending on who queued with whom. These people usually go into the game with expectations as to what they want to do, which can bring them into conflict with other players. These conflicts, along communication issues and just generally assholery, can hamper teamwork, and the games frequently become separate 1v1s, 2v2s, etc, instead of a 5v5 with distinct phases, like it is for pros. I don't think it's particularly noteworthy that the strategies pros use don't translate well to pub play. They're in two different worlds, almost like Arena vs Constructed.
Meh, I'm probably just not all that great at Hearthstone.
Though, I'm certainly not all that bad either. I understand synergies, I understand clever ways you can use cards together. I understand when to hold cards back and when to lay them on the table. I have a pretty solid understanding of what classes can do what. All of that is why it's so much fun for me to make my own decks, it's fun to come up with random, clever shit.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
So apparently deathrattle is being changed slightly... https://twitter.com/cataclyst78/status/487087834809921536
AFAIK sylvanas doesn't ever steal baine currently but I guess after naxx patch deathrattles will always trigger from the order they are played.
I've been working on and evolving my own rogue deck since I started the game. Making a good deck just takes a lot of time, patience, and testing.
I wouldn't say my deck is re-inventing the wheel... the only rogue decks people seem to play lately are miracle and aggro variants. So I think my deck is pretty unique and I've hit legend with it in the past when I spent enough time. I usually don't spend enough time though.
AFAIK sylvanas doesn't ever steal baine currently but I guess after naxx patch deathrattles will always trigger from the order they are played.
I've been working on and evolving my own rogue deck since I started the game. Making a good deck just takes a lot of time, patience, and testing.
I wouldn't say my deck is re-inventing the wheel... the only rogue decks people seem to play lately are miracle and aggro variants. So I think my deck is pretty unique and I've hit legend with it in the past when I spent enough time. I usually don't spend enough time though.
I wasn't making a point, I was making an observation. This is just the direction gaming is heading in due to internet proliferation, and you can see this in any game with a powerful theorycrafting contingent like WoW, Souls, Pokemon, Magic, DOTA2, etc, etc.
The thing all those game have in common are a dedicated hardcore community that doesn't shy away from making their knowledge public, or are unable to prevent their strategies from hitting the web. Once a deck, a team comp, a build, etc shows up at a tournament, everyone with an internet connection can reproduce it. Whether that copying amounts to anything is dependent on the game itself, and how much of its gameplay is knowledge-based, and how much is experience-based.
Mind sharing the decklist? It sounds interesting, and I'm curious to see if it's not just a variant of Tempo.
Professor Lich
Member
I've been building and working on my own personal deck for the past two months or so now. It hasn't been wildly successful, but it's the most fun I've had with the game by far. It just started with a simple idea and has been slightly changed to work better within the meta or just by improving it overall. Of course the deck has changed in overall tone / play style or whatever, but the main idea is still there.
It's main the reason I'm really excited for Naxx, once new cards get out, the meta shifts, and all that jazz, there will be more ideas to consider out there.
It's main the reason I'm really excited for Naxx, once new cards get out, the meta shifts, and all that jazz, there will be more ideas to consider out there.
And I can't wait for the Triple Leeroy extravaganza.
Just downloaded this an hour ago and played around a bit. Unlocked the Shaman and Warlock. It's a very cool game, and I have to give credit to Blizzard. It doesn't matter what they develop, even if it's a free card game -- it's going to be fun. I look forward to playing this in the coming days.
yep.
never found the appeal in netdecking.
Its like taking steroids in pro sports.
No its like following a common well founded strategy like tiki taka or the Dutch Total Football.
Deadceptor
Member
Been playing Hearthstone daily over 2 months now. At first I was gathering all the tips and info from various Hearthstone sites, like what are the most popular and best decks. But then again, just playing the game is much much more educational. So basically I don't netdeck, but I do copy combos/ideas/etc. that I see my opponents use. I've crafted shitloads of decks and incorporated these interesting bits and pieces in them. But there are many things I've just managed to figure out on my own and currently I have a very solid and simple Hunter deck that gets me from Rank 25 to 12-14 with ease. Now I've been working on my latest Rogue and it's quite good with 18 wins in a row.
It might be (highly) possible that my decks have formed in to some of these netdecks that everyone uses, but still it gives me joy that I've gotten these together on my own and not just straight up looking from the internet. I'm not saying it's bad or wrong to netdeck but that really kills all the fun for me. I love to craft decks and get the biggest kick from defeating someone tough with my own creation =)
It might be (highly) possible that my decks have formed in to some of these netdecks that everyone uses, but still it gives me joy that I've gotten these together on my own and not just straight up looking from the internet. I'm not saying it's bad or wrong to netdeck but that really kills all the fun for me. I love to craft decks and get the biggest kick from defeating someone tough with my own creation =)
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I've actually posted many iterations in the past. But it is always changing, even in minor ways. Even this season I have made several small alterations to accommodate trends.
Cairne/blackknight/argent commander/sylvanas compete for my 6 slot. I change it up based on what I am facing the most.
Earthen ring farseer is for when rogue/druid dominant meta since I am often focused on buying myself a single more turn to reach lethal (due to insane reach). But harvest golem vs control meta like control warrior/shaman. I've grown to like ERF more than HG because it allows my yeti to clear 2-3 drops and then heal back up. Also pretty important for freeze mage match up.
This season I had replaced both loot hoarders for 2 gnomish inventors and put a defias ringleader in, but I wasn't digging the 1 ringleader tbh. I prefer a 2 drop I can always play on curve or as a trigger for si7 agent or eviscerate on turns 4-5. I like gnomish inventor lately, 4 hp is just annoying enough to remove and it fills the same purpose as the old novice engineer... it creates me a card advantage when they have to spend a card to remove it. And when they ignore it, it makes a lovely 6/4... just out of reach of bgh. I recently removed one and put sprint in.
Now sprint is one of those cards that is just scarily good or terrible. When I have sprint in hand, I can play more aggressively for board control and I have to if I want to play sprint without just losing cause I played nothing for an entire turn.
The faerie dragon is a minion that has come and gone in and out of favor for me tbh. Kinda sucks vs druids cause they just use keeper on it, but then usually my 6 drops have a lot more effectiveness. Either way it hurts to see my pretty dragon die to keeper. Vs rogue without coin, they can't backstab/shiv so there is that benefit. Pretty good minion to keep initiative in a lot of match ups.
BGH cause, I have ragnaros and people love to faceless that shit or play their own. I also have cold blood so I can take out a minion for 4 mana. Assassinate cause that card is well underrated. Definitely a good card to keep initiative or get rid of a taunt.
Cold blood is actually a more recent addition. I don't think I really was valuing that burst damage until I lost a couple times to mainly that card.
I have been thinking about what I could do with ragnaros tho tbh. He could be due to be replaced. Not usually because of hard removal or bgh, but because of the dreaded faceless + bgh/removal or the dreaded enemy ragnaros hitting mine... or even ragnaros hitting face when I want removal. He hasn't been a problem thus far, usually I don't even need to play him, but in certain match ups he is undeniably strong.
I could talk for a long time about the evolution of this deck and the many variations. I've had argent squires, I've had 2x bgh, I've had 2xdoa, 2xtazdingo, 2xblade flurry, and heck I even ran 2 molten giants in past rogue decks (I never tried molten giants in this deck build though).
I label my deck as early tempo into midrange or just tempo/midrange.
Aquavelvaman
Banned
I wonder what it's like to fight a class that isn't druid.
More fun.
People are realising druid is ez mode and op. Not as hard to play as zoo to boot :b
Sounds like someone got beat by druids lately?
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