Hearthstone |OT| Why tap cards when you can roll need [Naxx final wing out now]
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mysteriousmage09
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It's fucking pointless to play anything in this game other than a rush deck.
The Lamonster
Member
I really love just totally destroying people at the beginning of the season.
You expect everybody to run 2 ironbeaks and 2 spellbreakers in every deck or something?
If it becomes enough of a problem, yes, people will.
That they don't means that it's not that big a deal yet.
Deathrattle in this expac is going to drastically inflate the value of silence. The tools already exist to deal with cards like Eggs, it just remains to be seen whether they're worth using.
That they don't means that it's not that big a deal yet.
Deathrattle in this expac is going to drastically inflate the value of silence. The tools already exist to deal with cards like Eggs, it just remains to be seen whether they're worth using.
Blasphemy, my zoo lost to a priest by 3 hp!!?!?! How can this be lol. It was actually really refreshing, my zoo was undefeated this season so far (mainly only do ranked for quests). Got a pretty bad draw though, didn't draw soulfire for 20 cards, and he healed up the injured blademaster about 5 times, fun stuff. I don't believe the egg is OP, it requires something else to really get value, whether its aoe or a buff. If they have 2 eggs, 2 haunted creepers, pretty easy to just not aoe. If they played all those "temporarily useless" minions, you should have solid board control anyways. I enjoy playing a control pally against zoo, good win rate, only lose to god draws by them really. Meta will shift to combat zoo, but it will always be strong.
There aren't too many silence cards that are independently good though. Neither Ironbeak Owl nor Spellbreaker have stats that make them that great as regular minions. Part of Ironbeak is budgeted to the fact that it's a beast and Spellbreaker trades too easy with 3/2's. So most people generally don't want to run them. Only Keeper of the Grove makes much sense, because it can trade favorably with most 2hp minions and you have the option to snipe weaker minions. Plus, silence doesn't kill any card. Even a silenced egg can be a threat as zoo can still use the body.
And if everybody is forced to run 2-4 silence cards in their deck just to counter 1-2 key cards, I think that's really bad for the meta. Anytime you have cards being auto-included into any deck, that's bad design. You have to force people to make choices.
The choice is whether you want to Silence Eggs or play around them. Just like Harrison Jones and weapons, or Black Knight and taunts. These hard counters will rise and fade with the popularity of their respective targets. Similarly, the decks that can run these cards advantageously, again, will rise and fade according to the fragile balance between mechanics and their counters.
As strong Deathrattles become more and more common, the classes with access to silence (Priest, Hunters, both underpowered if you'll recall) will become stronger as well. Isn't that a good thing? I think it is. It is far too early to say whether or not Eggs are too strong, since there will be a new batch of cards every week for the next 4 weeks, and after that, another 2-3 months before the meta becomes "optimized". Then you can start talking about nerfs and buffs.
Moreover, players shouldn't be able to avoid running solutions because "they're bad cards". One of the key skills in card games is properly identifying trends in the metagame and then taking the necessary steps to surmount it. Do you think Miracle Rogues actually wanted to run Shiv, FoK and Coldlight Oracle? No, these are bad cards we ran because it was the only way to make the deck work in the environment at that time.
There is no "playing around" eggs unless you are specifically playing as something like Freeze Mage. Playing around eggs means not putting minions on the board or not using AoE. Part of the reason egg is so strong is because it's super anti-AOE in a deck that can only be punished via AOE. "Playing around" the egg in zoo essentially means letting the rest of the minions run all over your face.
But now you're talking about having those bad cards be included in every deck to make the deck work. Not just specific decks.
There should be no auto-include neutral cards in Hearthstone. Period.
Why are you arguing for nerfs based on hypotheticals? We still don't know how Zoo is going to shake out once Naxx is all said and done. Why nerf something at all when the environment is literally changing week to week? It's not nearly so bad as to warrant a snap nerf.
mysteriousmage09
Member
Either way it's Blizzard, we'll be lucky if any major card changes happen by the end of the year.
The only card that has a chance of making a dent in zoo at this point is Deathlord, and I am still skeptical that it will not be used in zoo itself. Even in anti-zoo, it's almost a bad play on anything but Turn 3, because doomguard and one other minion could kill it with minimal drawbacks.
Yes, because the amount of potential decks the new cards will enable won't change the relative strength of Zoo at all. Everything is just about Zoo isn't it? This is simply a thinly veiled "I hate Zoo" complaint.
No. I don't want zoo removed from the game. I think Nerubian egg currently makes zoo way too strong. I think zoo is perfectly fine as a concept, but Nerubian egg currently fills a major hole in what was traditionally a weakness of the deck, AOE. It's far more effective at this than amani berserker was.
Amaz had over 50k people watching at some point earlier today. Like his stream accounted for 75%-80% of all HS viewers at the time. He also got something like 200 new subscribers in the span of 15 minutes. Kind of insane.
For the last time, there is no way for you or anyone to know just how strong Zoo will be once Naxx is done because there are just too many unknowns right now. Attempting balance blind is always ill-advised.
You have completely neglected to mention Shaman, which is going to get a massive boost with Reincarnation, who also plays Nerubian Eggs, and is perfectly positioned to counter Zoo's Eggs with Earth Shock, Hex, and Lightning Storm.
You've forgotten about Paladin's recent showing with Humility, Peacekeeper and Equality, all of which can deal with Zoo's Eggs. Paladin will also be getting a boost from Avenge, which just might be enough to turn it into A Real Deck.
And then there's Priest, with their access to both Silence and Mass Silence. Priest, like the previous two classes, is about to see a surge in popularity following release of their class card, which will go far in establishing board control in the early game, the class' most notable weaknesses right now.
Honestly, you're just tunnel-visioning into Zoo like everyone else in this thread.
You have completely neglected to mention Shaman, which is going to get a massive boost with Reincarnation, who also plays Nerubian Eggs, and is perfectly positioned to counter Zoo's Eggs with Earth Shock, Hex, and Lightning Storm.
You've forgotten about Paladin's recent showing with Humility, Peacekeeper and Equality, all of which can deal with Zoo's Eggs. Paladin will also be getting a boost from Avenge, which just might be enough to turn it into A Real Deck.
And then there's Priest, with their access to both Silence and Mass Silence. Priest, like the previous two classes, is about to see a surge in popularity following release of their class card, which will go far in establishing board control in the early game, the class' most notable weaknesses right now.
Honestly, you're just tunnel-visioning into Zoo like everyone else in this thread.
And what exactly are we talking about being auto-include? "Bad" Silence minions? They're tech options. Tech options are run to counter things so, yes, they're meant to be "auto-include in every deck" ... until they're no longer needed, anyway. Then they rotate out. Black Knight, Big Game Hunter, Harrison Jones / Acidic Swamp Ooze, etc. all fit this niche. Cards that are bad in a vacuum but good in specific instances. Maybe it's an agree to disagree case but I think these sorts of things are healthy for the game as it serves as a way to keep the meta in check.
As for the strength of Nerubian Egg, it's hard to say much about it yet. It's a really good card and the best way to deal with it isn't really ideal currently. Beyond that, it works really well with buffs which makes it really easy to trigger. Until we see how Shaman and Priest shape up with all their cards, I'm not really sure we can say that Egg is way too strong because of Zoo. To be fair, there's a non-zero chance that Egg just ends up being really good at creating weird niches for those classes (and, hell, possibly Paladin too) which comes back to your original point about Egg itself being too good but I'm not sure if that's really a problem then. Like, it serving as a big part of multiple decks is fine to me.
Hyperbole and venting aside, most of them just dislike it due to the popularity. At least, that's what I tell myself so I don't think everyone in the thread would like to bludgeon Zoo players to death.
Edit: I'm really curious as to how the Zoo style of play will be dealt with, though. With the game being so attacker advantaged, it's really hard to argue against Zoo's game plan. Use the best early game minions to put on pressure and control the board and dictate the pace of the game. The best way to deal with that is to ... out board control it or to survive until you wipe it all out. The problem is the former solution merely pits Zoo vs Zoo and the latter is too inconsistent (or simply too slow). Naxx is currently shaping up to try and fix that via a few class specific solutions but I'm not sold on it yet due to them not sounding consistent enough on paper.
Which again is why I find this unlock system so fucking bizarre. It just makes a mess of the meta for awhile on top of the whole "HEY THIS WORKS SO WELL oh wait not really" new card problem.
A case of theme/flavor overriding gameplay 
I dunno. I feel like the Hero Power can be played around for Zoo-style decks. Ideally, most of the game is dealt with by the time you can afford to Hero Power freely and still play cards. More things like Mad Scientist that thin the deck and serve as mana acceleration can open up opportunities for early aggro-control decks that aren't Warlock based.
I dunno. I feel like the Hero Power can be played around for Zoo-style decks. Ideally, most of the game is dealt with by the time you can afford to Hero Power freely and still play cards. More things like Mad Scientist that thin the deck and serve as mana acceleration can open up opportunities for early aggro-control decks that aren't Warlock based.
Burn could keep Zoo in check but people hate Burn as well. A tempo deck that can deal with Zoo without being Zoo would muscle out every other cheap creatures deck, and just become the new Zoo given enough time.
Can't win!
On a more serious note, as long as the Hero Power exists, Warlock will enjoy a level of consistency other classes can't match without similarly powerful card draw/card fixing tools, which will lead to frustration since players feel like they're just rolling the dice every turn (which everyone is) while Warlock gets to play consistently no matter what (which they do). More cards like Tracking, maybe some tutoring for Mages and Priests, etc.
I don't think it's insignificant that the decks people hate to play against the most, Zoolock, Miracle, and Freeze Mage, enjoy a level of deck consistency other decks don't, because all their cards are bent toward one and only one clearly defined purpose. Other classes are just constantly playing goodstuff.dec, whereas these 3 decks have genuinely unique gameplans. However, this might be a symptom of shallow card pools more than anything else.
Yeah, the old Zoo counter back in the Board Control Warlock days was Freeze Mage. Then that got gutted and we were really happy. Really, a lot of the anti-Zoo style decks just got nerfed because they kind of circumvent a core part of the game (playing the board) but it just reinforces that Zoo's really damn good at that niche as is.
The current plan is just to basically put in a "slightly slower than Zoo but slightly faster than midrange" option it seems but, yeah, it'll just become the "new Zoo" then if it succeeds at that. Well, maybe a more expensive deck than Zoo and maybe that'll make people happy? I dunno.
Zoo's consistency will probably always keep it relevant, though. Mad Scientist is the type of card that excites me since it at least seems to try to embrace some form of curve fixing tech for other classes. Given enough of that then maybe we'll see something change.
Hunter kept Zoo in check, to an extent, but too many people wined for UTH nerfs and now we're in this situation. You reap what you sow!
Ironically, Hunter actually wants to play Ironbeak Owl, which will be increasingly relevant in the coming weeks. I wonder if this, combined with YOU JUST ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD will be enough to make it relevant again. Freezing Trap on a buffed Egg would be glorious.
Ironically, Hunter actually wants to play Ironbeak Owl, which will be increasingly relevant in the coming weeks. I wonder if this, combined with YOU JUST ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD will be enough to make it relevant again. Freezing Trap on a buffed Egg would be glorious.
partyphone
Banned
i've been playing nothing but warrior control this week because i kind of hate myself
i put in a spellbreaker
i put in a spellbreaker
partyphone
Banned
i'd hope that hunters running double flare would help solve that problem
I took out both of my Trackings, and put in Webspinners.. and took out the Eaglehorn Bow in favor of a Deadly Shot. (Not in favor of a more expensive Fiery Win Axe with no secrets.) Very solid deck in that configuration.
There is the Priest silence for 0 mana, but that's still kind of problematic since it's not trading 1:1. Even a silenced egg is still a body that can be buffed. On the other hand, Mass Dispel is valuable against gimmick-heavy decks, and it cycles itself out, but its cost can be a problem.
Haunted
Member
it's boring
it's popular
it's strong
The perfect storm. Probably the closest equivalent to cheese in SC2 in the current meta. I mean it's fun to watch every once in a while, but when the ladder is full of people playing the same deck in the same way, that playstyle will receive a lot of hate. It's just how it goes.
Haunted
Member
the thirst is real
There's a tipping point with every stream, once you've been past that once (during a regular stream, not a one-off event), it'll just continue to snowball from there. Viewers beget more viewers, subscribers beget more subscribers etc.
Pff, amaz had 50k yesterday... Nuts.
The spectral spiders aren't beasts. They're ghosts. They also don't benefit from timber wolf or the dude that gives a beast +2/+2 and taunt.
... I have a headache.
BTW those who hate Zoo now, just wait until next week and you'll be looking back to today as the good old days.
ShinNL
Member
Man, if you bunch really fear Zoo that much, why don't you just run:
2x unstable ghoul
2x wild pyromancer
2x doomsayer
2x abomination
2x iron beak owl
2x spellbreaker
2x mind control tech
2x blood knight
And whatever class AOE you have.
Wanna bet that if you AOE like that no Zoo can trade efficiently?
Add in a Black Knight and Baron Geddon and be even more awesome.
2x unstable ghoul
2x wild pyromancer
2x doomsayer
2x abomination
2x iron beak owl
2x spellbreaker
2x mind control tech
2x blood knight
And whatever class AOE you have.
Wanna bet that if you AOE like that no Zoo can trade efficiently?
Add in a Black Knight and Baron Geddon and be even more awesome.
I spent $70 and doubled the number of legendaries I have. I 'm not really winning anymore than I was, but it sure is fun playing control Warrior. You never know how it will go after turn 4.
Innervate into IronBark Protector --> Black Knight --> Concede
Cairne --> assassinate/shadow word death --> Grommash --> assassinate/shadow word death --> Ragnaros --> oh you ran out? --> Ysera
Gorehowl --> Anything other than Ooze --> Grommash + Inner Rage x 2
Zoolock is ljust squishing bugs until the big boys come out.
Innervate into IronBark Protector --> Black Knight --> Concede
Cairne --> assassinate/shadow word death --> Grommash --> assassinate/shadow word death --> Ragnaros --> oh you ran out? --> Ysera
Gorehowl --> Anything other than Ooze --> Grommash + Inner Rage x 2
Zoolock is ljust squishing bugs until the big boys come out.
And have a 0% winrate against other decks?
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