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Hearthstone |OT2| Created by Unstable Portal
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Professor Lich
Member
Cool, thanks. Makes sense seeing these new cards. Wonder how you combat that.
partyphone
Banned
I don't know that I agree that there's power creep. We've seen a mix of great, good and bad cards and they don't seem to be out of proportion with the current set. We need new cards that are strong otherwise no one would play them but we haven't seen any that are just outright broken.
maybe unstable portal. some percentage of the time it's just going to win you the game on the spot.
I'd be interested to know what cards you all think are causing power creep.
maybe unstable portal. some percentage of the time it's just going to win you the game on the spot.
I'd be interested to know what cards you all think are causing power creep.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
When is blizzard gonna stop rewarding common cards from arena boxes. Its such a kick in the face,here you go 5 fucking dust for 8 arena wins.
Minsc
Gold Member
You did get 150+ gold and an expert pack worth 100 gold though, so at the bare minimum you got a total of 255 gold/dust for the 8 wins.
Trying to recall the long post I just accidentally deleted, fucking touchscreens
Since it's a gradual process there's no simple yes or no answer. I was being half-facetious when I posted that, of course there aren't going to be enough super powerful cards to replace most of the old set in G&G judging by the selection we've seen so far, but power creep definitely exists in some capacity. In a game like this I consider the clearest sign of power creep cards that are straight up better versions of similar older cards, making them pretty much obsolete and undesirable to collect.
The newest Shaman card being a vastly improved Dust Devil, that Warlock cannon which is basically a Demolisher on steroids (although those two cards were already very niche/unplayable), or Naxx's Sludge Belcher and Loatheb completely dominating the 5 slot in the majority of decks, even aggro/flood ones like Hunter and Zoo which used to cut anything above 4 save for overpowered class cards like Doomguard and Highmane.
I'll have to look at the list of released G&G cards for more examples, but I'm sure there's a bunch already.
partyphone
Banned
yeah those are all strong cards but I wouldn't call any of them overpowered except for undertaker. the popularity of loatheb and sludge belcher speaks more about the overall weakness of the 5 drop slot than those two cards in particular.
they're being very careful to give aggressive cards 2 health so that they're very easy to kill. it's gonna be fun to play a rogue again, honestly.
so far the only card I'm worried about is unstable portal. it's a free coin and has the possibility to give you an insane advantage.
edit: like I think spider tank will be one of the most played cards and it's by no means overpowered. it's just filling a slot that has been vacant.
they're being very careful to give aggressive cards 2 health so that they're very easy to kill. it's gonna be fun to play a rogue again, honestly.
so far the only card I'm worried about is unstable portal. it's a free coin and has the possibility to give you an insane advantage.
edit: like I think spider tank will be one of the most played cards and it's by no means overpowered. it's just filling a slot that has been vacant.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
This is an interesting interview with several HS pros about the GVG expansion. http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/11/24/what-do-hearthstone-pros-think-of-goblins-vs-gnomes
@ppl claiming RNG is too much:
"Reynad: Aside from Unstable Portal, I think that the developers incorporated RNG in a healthy way this time around. Cards like the piloted mechs are great design flavor and balance-wise, even though on the surface they seem very random. It's not as volatile of RNG as cards that are unhealthy for the game such as Animal Companion and Ragnaros."
Even Reynad, the guy who just outright complains about certain RNG cards like ragnaros, thinks the new cards are fine with only unstable portal being an outlier.
@ppl claiming RNG is too much:
"Reynad: Aside from Unstable Portal, I think that the developers incorporated RNG in a healthy way this time around. Cards like the piloted mechs are great design flavor and balance-wise, even though on the surface they seem very random. It's not as volatile of RNG as cards that are unhealthy for the game such as Animal Companion and Ragnaros."
Even Reynad, the guy who just outright complains about certain RNG cards like ragnaros, thinks the new cards are fine with only unstable portal being an outlier.
Professor Lich
Member
In their HearthStone talk, I thought they said they want RNG, but they want people to be able to use it smartly to their advantage. So say with Unstable Portal, you could change the way you even play your deck to work around that one card. I like that idea because then you're not just playing in a binary, one track mind way.
Hard to say if we'll get that though, as it's been said before, consistency is normally better than randomness.
Edit: I mean, look at all the Spare Parts. If you can get them to work in your favor, you'll probably pull ahead in a game.
Hard to say if we'll get that though, as it's been said before, consistency is normally better than randomness.
Edit: I mean, look at all the Spare Parts. If you can get them to work in your favor, you'll probably pull ahead in a game.
Two new cards:
"In Goblins vs Gnomes, many ogres will have the “50% chance to attack the wrong enemy” card text"
"so their ability can also potentially bypass Taunt and Stealth if one of their wild swings manages to connect"
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/16893475
"In Goblins vs Gnomes, many ogres will have the “50% chance to attack the wrong enemy” card text"
"so their ability can also potentially bypass Taunt and Stealth if one of their wild swings manages to connect"
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/16893475
Professor Lich
Member
That Ogre Ninja makes no sense and I love it.
Ogre effect actually does make sense because the two heads are always fighting about what to do. Pretty cool flavor.
Edit: I hope Ninja and/or Ogre decks become a thing.
Double Edit: One thing about Ogres is that they kind of favor Control Decks. If you can keep your opponent's board clear, the effect won't matter.
Ogre effect actually does make sense because the two heads are always fighting about what to do. Pretty cool flavor.
Edit: I hope Ninja and/or Ogre decks become a thing.
Double Edit: One thing about Ogres is that they kind of favor Control Decks. If you can keep your opponent's board clear, the effect won't matter.
partyphone
Banned
hahaha. ogre ninja. ogres make terrible ninjas.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Maybe they are just that good at being a ninja.
edit:
That said, for a rogue card only I think it isn't very appealing. Only 1/1 extra stats over stranglethorn tiger to get that whacky text.
cursedDice
Member
A couple of thoughts on RNG and randomness in Hearthstone:
I actually believe RNG increases the ability for better players to distinguish themselves. Nothing in Hearthstone is so random that you cannot predict all possible outcomes for any random 'event'. The better a player is at evaluating all possible outcomes of a 'random' card and weighing his decision based on those outcomes, the more games that player will win.
It also forces players to adapt to outcomes that are not ideal (these 'not-ideal' outcomes are seen before-hand by good players) and punishes those who play a random card without thinking through all outcomes.
An example:
Handlock playing Soulfire: A good Handlock player will evaluate every card that he could lose to playing Soulfire (and evaluate the long-term consequences of losing it) and decide if losing his best card in hand is worth the benefit from playing Soulfire. A bad Handlock player will see his hand size is large and may even acknowledge that losing a particular card would be 'bad'; but they end the thought process there and play the Soulfire. The better player not only thought through all outcomes, but played the game in his head for a couple of turns for each outcome; he will not be surprised or caught off guard.
Nothing I have seen in GvG so far feels so random that good players will not be able to evaluate all possible outcomes for any given bit of RNG. So far, the only cards that GvG is introducing that might be difficult to evaluate all outcomes for is Unstable Portal and Madder Bomber.
I actually believe RNG increases the ability for better players to distinguish themselves. Nothing in Hearthstone is so random that you cannot predict all possible outcomes for any random 'event'. The better a player is at evaluating all possible outcomes of a 'random' card and weighing his decision based on those outcomes, the more games that player will win.
It also forces players to adapt to outcomes that are not ideal (these 'not-ideal' outcomes are seen before-hand by good players) and punishes those who play a random card without thinking through all outcomes.
An example:
Handlock playing Soulfire: A good Handlock player will evaluate every card that he could lose to playing Soulfire (and evaluate the long-term consequences of losing it) and decide if losing his best card in hand is worth the benefit from playing Soulfire. A bad Handlock player will see his hand size is large and may even acknowledge that losing a particular card would be 'bad'; but they end the thought process there and play the Soulfire. The better player not only thought through all outcomes, but played the game in his head for a couple of turns for each outcome; he will not be surprised or caught off guard.
Nothing I have seen in GvG so far feels so random that good players will not be able to evaluate all possible outcomes for any given bit of RNG. So far, the only cards that GvG is introducing that might be difficult to evaluate all outcomes for is Unstable Portal and Madder Bomber.
Professor Lich
Member
Maybe that new Rogue card lets you silence your own minion!
Soooo, any signs to look for for a Control Warrior to be of the Worgen cheese-variety? I sat on 24 hp, also a Warrior, he had a Death's Bite up and I thought "I'll easily survive Grom.". Ended up getting whacked in the face for 2*16 or 24 or whatever it was.
Only thing out of the ordinary before that was a Sen'jin, but some regular ones run that.
Only thing out of the ordinary before that was a Sen'jin, but some regular ones run that.
It rarely works out like that, however.
The "RNG" people people are really complaining about is the stuff that swings a match one way or another.
Brawl against a full board and hope your Rag survives.
Play Ysera hinging on Ysera Awakens to clear the opponent's field.
There's no nuance here. It's "if I play this card, I have a 10% chance to win and a 90% chance to lose, but I have nothing else to do so I'm going to take that bet."
Blizzard should strive to empower players with choice and deliberation, not betting against the odds when things look grim. Every card you draw is already a roll of the dice, why add to this variance?
For all the complaints Miracle Rogue got as far as "topdecking" goes, it actually had very little variance. The whole point was to minimize luck of the draw by simply brute forcing into the deck. That's one of the reasons why it's survived most the nerfs against it, because it's hidden strength is consistency. Warlock is in a similar boat, because of the nature of their hero power.
"Do a thing and hope for the best" really should not be a viable or common tactic. But we've had many examples of this deciding major tournaments.
The "RNG" people people are really complaining about is the stuff that swings a match one way or another.
Brawl against a full board and hope your Rag survives.
Play Ysera hinging on Ysera Awakens to clear the opponent's field.
There's no nuance here. It's "if I play this card, I have a 10% chance to win and a 90% chance to lose, but I have nothing else to do so I'm going to take that bet."
Blizzard should strive to empower players with choice and deliberation, not betting against the odds when things look grim. Every card you draw is already a roll of the dice, why add to this variance?
For all the complaints Miracle Rogue got as far as "topdecking" goes, it actually had very little variance. The whole point was to minimize luck of the draw by simply brute forcing into the deck. That's one of the reasons why it's survived most the nerfs against it, because it's hidden strength is consistency. Warlock is in a similar boat, because of the nature of their hero power.
"Do a thing and hope for the best" really should not be a viable or common tactic. But we've had many examples of this deciding major tournaments.
The increased RNG is a direct response to game systems like VS system which collapsed into a pile of uninteresting "curve-out" matchups after a while due to the way in which guaranteed resource systems remove a TON of variance from the game. They're attempting to fight it by putting more RNG on the cards themselves. We'll see how successful this is long-term, but it's not wrong to do so.
They're also using controlled "randomness" to let things bypass taunt or hit stealthed (Auctioneer) minions- which I suspect the Ogres can do here as well.
They're also using controlled "randomness" to let things bypass taunt or hit stealthed (Auctioneer) minions- which I suspect the Ogres can do here as well.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Soooo, any signs to look for for a Control Warrior to be of the Worgen cheese-variety? I sat on 24 hp, also a Warrior, he had a Death's Bite up and I thought "I'll easily survive Grom.". Ended up getting whacked in the face for 2*16 or 24 or whatever it was.
Only thing out of the ordinary before that was a Sen'jin, but some regular ones run that.
I've noticed the enrage decks run a couple unique cards:
inner rage is the most obvious give away imo
But they also tend to run and focus on more card draw. I've seen loot hoarders, azure drake, slam (not often ran in the standard control variants anymore), etc.. I think gorehowl is a card that might be indicative of an enrage worgen deck because the number 1 thing that beats the deck is taunts.
Bleh, I'll admit I'm not great again and again on here, but man, there's nothing like getting shut down by a garbage player pulling a Undertaker Hunter. Despite having a golden portrait, he tried to use Kill Command on my Faerie Dragon, and his deck at least had two Silverback Patriarchs. But he got his darn Undertaker up and running and I didn't have a good opening hand to deal with it, so he just steamrolled me.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I'm starting to see how this card could be useful. Basically in a deck where you want to force your opponent into trading into your minions and I think this is the kind of minion that does that. Even if they drop a taunt you still have a chance to get value out of this card and force them to trade into it. It is like a slow aggro card, basically. And I am actually quite a fan of slow aggro rogue.
They're going to be forced to address it, it's just too good as is. Either shave a toughness off it or make more drastic changes.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
They should add randomness to undertaker.
"When you summon a minion with deathrattle, win the game in two turns or three turns"
But they should do "+1 attack or +1 health".
"When you summon a minion with deathrattle, win the game in two turns or three turns"
But they should do "+1 attack or +1 health".
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
The ogre ninja reminded me of this act
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3MsZjx1K8k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3MsZjx1K8k
two headed ninja can always check his backside
Dragon Puncher
Member
Mage is really getting the shaft in this expansion. Out of the 4 revealed so far, Goblin Blastmage is the only one worth a damn. That cloning spell better be damn good.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
You don't like the snowchugger? Freeze is a pretty strong affect on a 2 mana card imo and the stats are good for it.
I can't imagine it works this way, but Jeeves' text suggest you can use him to fatigue yourself to death instantly when you're out of cards (since it would just keep trying to pull cards until you have 3, which will never happen). Like an infinite loop in programming language.
Professor Lich
Member
It was already commented on by Brode, or some other Blizzard dude, Jeeves can only max draw three. So yes, he could do major Fatigue damage, but it's not an instant kill.
Ok, they should clarify that somehow in the text.
You mean you've never seen one. Which means they're doing their job.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Could be kinda cool if jeeves can fit into a late game control deck to speed up fatigue.
poppedcollar69
Member
I watched a trump draft arena tutorial video and i was like... wait... what??? you don't need a shit load of card draw?
time to remake all my decks
time to remake all my decks
Dragon Puncher
Member
Unless mechs are crazy good and become a viable subtheme in freeze mage, I just don't think it's good enough. 2/3 are acceptable stats, but pretty unplayable on their own and 3 toughness means it's almost always going to die after one attack. If I want a 2 mana freeze, Frost Bolt is just the better choice by far.
Professor Lich
Member
It's kind of hard to clarify though. Right now it says, "At the end of each player's turn, that player draws until they have 3 cards." So it's easy to see that you either get one, two, or three cards. Have to remember a big point of this game is making sure it's simple and easy to learn.
You can't have it say, "If your hand is empty, draw three cards, or if you have one card, draw two cards, if you have two cards, draw one card." It' way to long for simple card text.
You could have it say, "Depending on how many cards you have, draw up to three cards." but then people have to figure out what that means. While it wouldn't take long to figure out, compare the chance between two things happening in a game.
1. Someone having less than three cards (Favors the current text)
2. Someone having zero cards in hand and in the rest of their deck (Favors the 'new' text)
Which is more likely? It's got to be number one. Since that that happens way more often then the latter, the current card text makes way more sense. Not to mention that if you do get your opponent in that position and a Jeeves in on the board, you've probably won anyway.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I think you're underestimating the value of the freeze tbh. It makes trading up against the card that much more difficult since the minion is frozen for what tends to be a meaningful amount of time when a match lasts a short time. And then it can get additional freezes on weapon uses, the same way water elemental works, but at a much cheaper cost.
I dunno but it seems to have a lot more weight to it than the average 2 drop does.
Agreed. Snowchugger will get its best use out of freezing heroes and preventing weapon usage. This can easily shut down control Paladin and Warrior especially, as they're rather reliant on weapons to gain control of the board.
Compared to Water Elemental, its stats are roughly equal in relation to its mana cost (~250% for both), but it also has the benefit of being a mech. Good card. Should see some use. Would be surprised if it didn't. Hell, I'll probably use it. Love running Water and Frost elementals as it is.
Blizzard has posted the minimum specs needed to run HS on Android. Release should be just around the corner!
https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/hearthstone-system-requirements
https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/hearthstone-system-requirements
RumblingRosco
Member
If my HP Touchpad that I bought for $100 doesn't run it then fuck everything.
Haha! Yours is still kicking? Mine died ages ago. Still was worth it.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Just a sick joke today so far. 2 matches where a hunter got their UT easily up above 3 hp before turn 3. The last hunter managed to get it to 7hp by turn 5.
edit:
WTF, how did I just beat a handlock without drawing a single equality, aldor peacekeeper, or humility!?
I feel good about that result. I don't even run BGH and I wasted my black knight on a sludge belcher to protect my own board.
The guy was totally tap happy tho. I couldn't believe he tapped himself down to 7 hp then siphon soul'd my wild pyro...
edit:
WTF, how did I just beat a handlock without drawing a single equality, aldor peacekeeper, or humility!?
I feel good about that result. I don't even run BGH and I wasted my black knight on a sludge belcher to protect my own board.
The guy was totally tap happy tho. I couldn't believe he tapped himself down to 7 hp then siphon soul'd my wild pyro...
I might consider a Tab Pro 8.4 since it's $199 at BB.
Edit: I hope when they say these listed devices run well they really mean it.
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