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Hearthstone |OT2| Created by Unstable Portal

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I think its real downside is if he is in the real late portion of your deck. I think its strength will be determined by how bad it is when it is drawn late. Because it is pretty good when played late, since conceivably you've gotten it to 10 or more attack power if you've had it long enough. Your opponent is probably also strained for removal and 7hp isn't exactly easy to take out.

There is also a limited amount of silences available and silencing this could make tirion or sylvanas that much better.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Why would anybody waste removal on a 1/7? It doesn't even keep growing after you play him. A 1 drop (undertaker) is more likely to draw removal more than a plain Bolvar.

I'd argue that's half of what's so good about Undertaker. They have to use removal on a one drop or risk it growing notably bigger, leaving your later minions more clear.
 

caesar

Banned
Nobody should be making definitive statements like that. Its a completely new mechanic to the game. People are going to need to experiment before legitimate opinions can be made. It all comes down to how powerful he is on an average play and how varied the spread is. Without knowing that, I don't think definitive judgments can be made.

Upsides to Bolvar:

Above average stats potentially.

Downsides:

Silence
No immediate effects
Terrible topdeck
Bad mulligan
 
Upsides to Bolvar:

Above average stats potentially.

Downsides:

Silence
No immediate effects
Terrible topdeck
Bad mulligan

In control paladin, I'm sometimes okay with keeping a 5 drop. It isn't the worst thing in the world at least. Granted, since you have a higher curve you aren't exactly hurting for a big minion as well. It wouldn't be painful to see pulled early though.

I'm pretty on the fence about this card.
 

Leezard

Member
Upsides to Bolvar:

Above average stats potentially.

Downsides:

Silence
No immediate effects
Terrible topdeck
Bad mulligan

The best possible case for Bolvar should be a 6/7 on turn 5. A 5 mana boulderfist, and even then it's easily lost to silence. Anything more and he's just a BGH target in a deck with few (none if no Rag) BGH targets.

I think he seems quite bad.
 
The best possible case for Bolvar should be a 6/7 on turn 5. A 5 mana boulderfist, and even then it's easily lost to silence. Anything more and he's just a BGH target in a deck with few (none if no Rag) BGH targets.

I think he seems quite bad.

Or you can save him up to be much bigger than boulderfist. Not every deck runs BGH on ladder. I barely see that card (except when I run rag lol).

edit:
It is like van cleef... are you really afraid of BGH with van cleef? Sometimes you just win with a huge van cleef.
 

johnsmith

remember me
Bolvar would be viable if he kept growing after you played him, or at least started off with good vanilla stats 4/6. Right now he is trash, pure and simple. Needs taunt too.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
People keep shitting their pants about BGH killing Bolvar. Nobody runs that card in an aggro or midrange meta, unless you're a druid starving for removal from the occasional handlock. Its a tech card. You run it when the meta demands it. To assume Bolvar constantly dies from BGH is to assume that we move back to a handlock/control meta. And nobody can assume that right now.
 

Leezard

Member
Or you can save him up to be much bigger than boulderfist. Not every deck runs BGH on ladder. I barely see that card (except when I run rag lol).

edit:
It is like van cleef... are you really afraid of BGH with van cleef? Sometimes you just win with a huge van cleef.

Fair enough that not every deck runs BGH, but I think van cleef is a lot better than this card. It can be played earlier, and it is easier to put it at the stats you want. Topdecking van cleef is a lot better than topdecking Bolvar.
 
Warning, graphic violence ahead

Hearthstone_Screenshot_12_1_2014_18_04_00.jpg


Got one of those OMFG out of nowhere FON+innervate+double savage roar combos (some of the minions already buffed by potw the turn before). Was vs warrior (if you can't tell in the ss).

In all fairness, I think I would have won before I pulled an innervate. Just double savage roar was enough I think.

Fair enough that not every deck runs BGH, but I think van cleef is a lot better than this card. It can be played earlier, and it is easier to put it at the stats you want. Topdecking van cleef is a lot better than topdecking Bolvar.

It is like a van cleef that you play later rather than earlier and you also end up devoting less resources towards his growth imo. Minions are gonna die anyway. Sometimes playing to get a big van cleef can really put you in the negative if he is dealt with easily and you may have played cards you would not have otherwise. In other words, it is less all in than VC is as well.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
I think the card needs charge

If you gave Bolvar Charge he'd turn into an insane win condition in any paladin deck. Aggro, control, whichever. Bolvar+Faceless would be the new FoN/Savage Roar combo.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Sounds like something Paladin needs...

Priest went from last place to top tier because it got just one really good midrange card. So you think in order to balance Pally you need to give them serious burst potential? Serious burst, infinite heals, plus best board clears in the game, yeah that's healthy for the meta. Let's just make everybody play Paladin.
 
It would be a downright toxic card to give him charge in any form. When you're playing against a class with burst, you at least have some idea of how much damage he can put out in a single turn from a charge minion. With bolvar... 1 damage? 10 damage? 20 damage? 40 damage?

At least that's my thoughts on giving him charge.

Also, while I think paladin needs a way to finish an opponent off, I don't think charge is what paladin should get. Also, if a charge combo is needed, like really needed, they could also do something with charge, BOM, and faceless on neutral minions. They can hit 18-20 damage combos with BOM + faceless I believe. I guess that was pre-leeroy nerf though.
 

ViviOggi

Member
Priest plays turn 4 MINDGAMES, naturally pulling my Malygos

As expected I only draw Sap after he has attacked with it and obliterated my board with a Nova

He has a second Nova with both Pyro and Coin to answer my concealed Auctioneer on turn 6 because why the hell not

A single Thoughtsteal obviously gets an Assassin's Blade to deal with all of my 3/3s plus an Eviscerate

Of course he then has a Mind Control ready to take my actual Malygos after I've used it to set up lethal and kills me with a 10 damage Holy Fire because my second Sap is in the bottom 4 cards of my deck

I fucking can't
 
Priest went from last place to top tier because it got just one really good midrange card. So you think in order to balance Pally you need to give them serious burst potential? Serious burst, infinite heals, plus best board clears in the game, yeah that's healthy for the meta. Let's just make everybody play Paladin.

In what world is Priest top tier?

I'm just trying to help Paladin in constructed, because the cards it's getting in GvG pale in comparison to those of classes that were already stronger. Besides, they seem to have no problems making the game Hunterstone
 
Priest plays turn 4 MINDGAMES, naturally pulling my Malygos

As expected I only draw Sap after he has attacked with it and obliterated my board with a Nova

He has a second Nova with both Pyro and Coin to answer my concealed Auctioneer on turn 6 because why the hell not

A single Thoughtsteal obviously gets an Assassin's Blade to deal with all of my 3/3s plus an Eviscerate

Of course he then has a Mind Control ready to take my actual Malygos after I've used it to set up lethal and kills me with a 10 damage Holy Fire because my second Sap is in the bottom 4 cards of my deck

I fucking can't

I feel you. Priests always seem to get great cards from me when I play rogue. And just today one got an innervate swipe.

When I play rogue, they always get eviscerate and si7 agent. If I haven't drawn an eviscerate, I pretty much assume that is what happened and I am so often right it is ridiculous.
 
Priest plays turn 4 MINDGAMES, naturally pulling my Malygos

As expected I only draw Sap after he has attacked with it and obliterated my board with a Nova

He has a second Nova with both Pyro and Coin to answer my concealed Auctioneer on turn 6 because why the hell not

A single Thoughtsteal obviously gets an Assassin's Blade to deal with all of my 3/3s plus an Eviscerate

Of course he then has a Mind Control ready to take my actual Malygos after I've used it to set up lethal and kills me with a 10 damage Holy Fire because my second Sap is in the bottom 4 cards of my deck

I fucking can't

I actually cried with laughter. I'm so sorry, but that is hilarious. Turn 4 Malygos -> Turn 5 Nova is my new dream for Priest play.

In what world is Priest top tier?

They're probably the strongest class after Warlock and Hunter. They have bad matchups against Rogue and Face Warrior (nothing to steal) but they have tons of removal which makes them good against Zoo decks, plus not all their removal is dead if they manage to clear. Turn 5 Nova to clear - > Turn 6 Blademaster x2, CoH. The only ones that are truly dead are SW:Ds, but most decks only run one these days (I do anyway, and I'm thinking of adding a SW:p for belchers instead of Shadow Madness).
 

ViviOggi

Member
I feel you. Priests always seem to get great cards from me when I play rogue. And just today one got an innervate swipe.

When I play rogue, they always get eviscerate and si7 agent. If I haven't drawn an eviscerate, I pretty much assume that is what happened and I am so often right it is ridiculous.
I think I'll start a list of obscene Thoughtsteals played against me. Meanwhile my average pull playing Priest is Prep + Deadly Poison

I actually cried with laughter. I'm so sorry, but that is hilarious. Turn 4 Malygos -> Turn 5 Nova is my new dream for Priest play.

I almost conceded after the Mindgames but at least I got a good story out of it
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Also, while I think paladin needs a way to finish an opponent off, I don't think charge is what paladin should get. Also, if a charge combo is needed, like really needed, they could also do something with charge, BOM, and faceless on neutral minions. They can hit 18-20 damage combos with BOM + faceless I believe. I guess that was pre-leeroy nerf though.

Arcane Golem, BOM, Faceless is 14 damage. Same damage as FoN/SR but the fact that it's a 3 card combo makes it significantly worse. 2 card combos are much, much better than 3 card combos. The only reason Rogue can pull 3+ card combos off is because of their insane card draw engine.
 
Priest plays turn 4 MINDGAMES, naturally pulling my Malygos

As expected I only draw Sap after he has attacked with it and obliterated my board with a Nova

He has a second Nova with both Pyro and Coin to answer my concealed Auctioneer on turn 6 because why the hell not

A single Thoughtsteal obviously gets an Assassin's Blade to deal with all of my 3/3s plus an Eviscerate

Of course he then has a Mind Control ready to take my actual Malygos after I've used it to set up lethal and kills me with a 10 damage Holy Fire because my second Sap is in the bottom 4 cards of my deck

I fucking can't
I wish you were there watching when I Thoughtstealed two Blade Flurrys.
 

Minsc

Gold Member
Upsides to Bolvar:

Above average stats potentially.

Downsides:

Silence
No immediate effects
Terrible topdeck
Bad mulligan

And don't forget there is already a 4/7 minion for 5 mana in the game, whose stats cannot be silenced, unlike Bolvar.

Really, only having just 1 in your deck means the odds of you getting it in your first 10 cards when you'd want it in your hand to grow its attack are not in your favor. So most of the time it won't give more value than many other 5-drops already in the game (actually a lot less value as you're more likely to draw it after turn 10 than before turn 10).
 

johnsmith

remember me
In what world is Priest top tier?
In the post-Naxxramas world.

Good matchup vs zoo, hunter, control warrior, shaman, and druid. Their bad matchups (handlock and freeze mage) are kept in check by hunter.


My last legend climb with undertaker priest was literally effortless. Was just playing games for fun when I realized I was rank 2. Almost no matchup felt unwinnable besides handlock, and even had a 50/50 rate vs miracle.
 

jblank83

Member
As someone who prefers to play Paladin, I would never carry that card in a deck. It's such a thin slice card, useful in narrow circumstances (opponent has no removal, draw it early). Even then it's a dead card half the game.

Why would I play Bolvar when I could play Spectral Knight? At turn 5 Bolvar might be, if I drew Bolvar in my opening hand, if I drew lots of early game minions to play on turns 2 3 and 4, and if all of them were destroyed by turn 5 (something no one wants to happen) a 5/7 or 6/7 minion. At that point it's silenceable, sheepable, assassinatable, hexable, and more.

Yet, by turn 5, I expect my opponent to have some removal. Or board control with several minions. Or both. Alternatively, Spectral Knight has 1 less health, maybe 1 or 2 less damage, but it's going to stay on the board. Nothing is going to remove it, short of an amped up AOE.

Maybe I draw Bolvar mid to late game and it becomes a 5 mana 2/7 or 3/7... or a 1/7. Complete garbage. The only scenario I can imagine it being useful mid to late game is some sort of minion producing card, like Haunted Creepers. Then you're playing trash just to get Bolvar pumped up. You might as well concede if you're doing that by mid-game.

It's not even worth thinking about. The card isn't on Rag level or Tirion level. It doesn't do enough right away. It doesn't have decent stats. It's not even Boulderfist Ogre or Stormwind Champion level. It's the proverbial Angry Chicken of legendaries: a joke that almost never works.

Throw it on the pile with Milhouse Manastorm, Nat Pagle, and Tinkmaster Overspark.
 

johnsmith

remember me
Wait, people seriously think Priest is top tier? Top players and stats disagree

http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/hearthstone/470669-power-rank-october-2014

http://hearthstats.net/

Most 3rd played class according to the stats and meta report. Win rate right in the middle, with a much higher skill ceiling than zoo and hunter.

That liquidpedia ranking is garbage, and applicable to tournaments, not ladder, where most people play. Rogues #3 in it but the lowest win rate on ladder according to hearthstats.
http://hearthstats.net/oct
http://ihearthu.com/meta-report-45/
 
Most 3rd played class according to the stats and meta report. Win rate right in the middle, with a much higher skill ceiling than zoo and hunter.

What part of that makes it top tier? Third most played, so with all that data it's exactly in the middle of the pack. I never said Priest was in a bad spot right now, but I'm not the one saying Dark Cultist made it top tier either.
 

Brofist

Member
In what world is Priest top tier?

I'm just trying to help Paladin in constructed, because the cards it's getting in GvG pale in comparison to those of classes that were already stronger. Besides, they seem to have no problems making the game Hunterstone

I wouldn't say top tier, but since it does well against the deck people love to hate, like Hunter decks and zoo type stuff, it feels strong atm.
 
Damnit... I win a 1/4 chance for rag to survive.... later a warrior wins a 1/7 chance for his 5/5 to survive. Then his sylvanas has a 50/50 chance to get dotc and gets it. #rngstone
 

johnsmith

remember me
What part of that makes it top tier? Third most played, so with all that data it's exactly in the middle of the pack. I never said Priest was in a bad spot right now, but I'm not the one saying Dark Cultist made it top tier either.

It was the 3rd most played in September too, and had the 3rd highest win rate. So the win rate is going to have some natural variation. If you split the classes into 3 tiers of 3 each, it has a good argument to being in the top 3 after the 2 obviously broken classes. If you just split the classes into 2 tiers it obviously makes it into the top tier.

I guess I'll say its in the top tier of classes that don't obviously need nerfs.
 
I'm a bit surprised they settled on making Bolivar a card, to be honest. He's bad if you draw him late, but he's a legendary, so you can only have one of him, which makes him hard to draw early. And even then, Paladin's biggest problem isn't dealing with slow control matchups where you're happy to have cards in your hand that are dead until T5 (at the earliest) either, so he doesn't necessary bring much even when he shows up on time. I wonder what problem they think he's answering for the Pally class.
 
I'm a bit surprised they settled on making Bolivar a card, to be honest. He's bad if you draw him late, but he's a legendary, so you can only have one of him, which makes him hard to draw early. And even then, Paladin's biggest problem isn't dealing with slow control matchups where you're happy to have cards in your hand that are dead until T5 (at the earliest) either, so he doesn't necessary bring much even when he shows up on time. I wonder what problem they think he's answering for the Pally class.

As a "low" cost card of 5 mana, you can't really expect it to be the balls in the late game. However, bolivar actually can be the balls late game, unless you top deck him late.

I think if you look at this card as a card to be played on curve, or valuing it on that respect, it is being looked at way wrong.

edit:
For the record, since it probably looks like I think this is a great card, I am largely undecided. It probably isn't great, but it probably isn't terrible either. I think I need to see the new mechanic in action in a paladin deck (not actually that different than I run right now) to see how often it gets real big.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
I think it's too early to tell with Bolvar. I think he fits into a midrange/control Paladin that runs both Haunted Creeper and Muster the Forces. I think 5/7 might be that sweet spot where he gets played the most, kind of like a 6/6 Van Cleef. A single Haunted Creeper or Muster the Forces gets him to a 4/7, so all you need is one extra minion death to hit the 5/7, which could be a token/hero power. That's really not that difficult. If you get the early Haunted Creeper or Muster the Forces, he might be worth playing on curve. He'll excel if you draw him early and have enough other cards in hand that you can play semi-normally around him, and then drop him with really scary stats around Turn 7-9 or so. And yeah, maybe he's a pretty good followup to the pyro+equality combo if you're forced to kill some other minion other than pyro. But, I do agree he's a pretty awful topdeck in the late game. I think there has to be some experimentation with the card. I think a lot of people might be judging him too harshly as a class legendary just because 5 mana for a class legendary is traditionally quite low. I think most people are of the mindset that a class legendary needs to be a win condition, which bolvar clearly is not.
 

johnsmith

remember me
Gahz'Rilla could easily fall into the same category of Velen, Antonidas, and Kel'thuzad are in, where they have powerful effects, but they still aren't good enough to be played often because they do nothing immediately, or aren't sticky. If those guys don't get played, what chance does Bolvar have? Absolutely none. It will never see play.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Gahz'Rilla could easily fall into the same category of Velen, Antonidas, and Kel'thuzad are in, where they have powerful effects, but they still aren't good enough to be played often because they do nothing immediately, or aren't sticky. If those guys don't get played, what chance does Bolvar have? Absolutely none. It will never see play.

Again, I think this is the "class legendaries must be win conditions" mindset. Bolvar is 5 mana, not 7 or 8. Velen, Antonidas, and Kel'Thuzad also all need combo setups or specific board states in order to work. The only prerequisite for Bolvar is that he might have to sit in your hand for a bit. Once he gets to the target you need, you can drop him You don't have to wait until you draw a mind blast, a mirror image, or you start your turn with a sludge belcher on the board. Just plop him down and you're done.
 
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