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Hearthstone |OT2| Created by Unstable Portal

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Speaking of new players entering, what do you guys think about making some cards free as time goes on? Say two or three expansions come out, 100 cards each,
so it'll take five years
, would you guys be fine with say, all class specific rares(from the beginning) become free along with one class epic per class?

I think it'd be nice if down the line getting into the game becomes a little bit easier or at least lesson the divide in power somehow. I ask because in my WoW days, people would flip out if something they worked hard for became easier to obtain. I personally don't care, if I already have something, why does it matter how someone else gets it.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
They eventually will have to give new players more and more stuff to get them off the ground.

Kind of like decreasing prices on League Champions.
 

caesar

Banned
Speaking of new players entering, what do you guys think about making some cards free as time goes on? Say two or three expansions come out, 100 cards each,
so it'll take five years
, would you guys be fine with say, all class specific rares(from the beginning) become free along with one class epic per class?

I think it'd be nice if down the line getting into the game becomes a little bit easier or at least lesson the divide in power somehow. I ask because in my WoW days, people would flip out if something they worked hard for became easier to obtain. I personally don't care, if I already have something, why does it matter how someone else gets it.

Kinda goes against the principles of collecting cards.
 

slayn

needs to show more effort.
I think you handle a lot of this through adventures. Once adventure 2 comes out, Naxx becomes extremely reduced in price. Once adventure 3 comes out, Naxx is free and adventure 2 gets reduced price.

This gives new players an expanded single player experience to level up classes going against bosses and acquiring new cards.
 
Kinda goes against the principles of collecting cards.

True, but if after a few years of new cards with stronger minions, and possibly spells, coming out, you don't want your new player to be overwhelmed if all they can use is Goldshire Footmen and Bloodfen Raptors.

When the game started, there was roughly 380 cards to collect. I guess my idea is that after more cards come out, make it where there are only 400 cards to collect for new people or something along those lines.
 

Xanathus

Member
Hyped's giant mage is legit, 6 out of 7 wins. Only loss was against another secrets mage and I misplayed by not checking for counterspell.
 

Minsc

Gold Member
Level 9 warrior vs guy who can pull out Rag and the Tauren legend. It was a decent game until then. This is a fucking joke.

Half the time Rag would potentially hit some crappy 1/1 token, then die to BGH after getting faceless'd. You can only drop him safely if your opponent lets you a lot of the time.

It's easy to say rag won him the game, but definitely not always true. Perhaps more true than not if you have no cards, but there's a whole lot more going on in those 7 or 8 turns than many people realize, especially when they're new. There are so many cards to play around each turn, forcing poor trades, it could easily have been over-commiting to the board, or playing a large minion instead of two smaller ones (or vice-versa) that lead to the conditions where your opponent playing a Rag would win. There's RNG of course, but it usually works both ways, and when you have Rag yourself, you'll see it's not a card you can blindly play to win the game (I tend to feel when I have Rag in hand, there's more times I wish I had another legendary instead, as playing him isn't going to do what I need).
 
The fucking 4/5 that deathrattles for another 4/5 for 6 mana, I don't know the name. 8/10 worth of stuff for 6. Practically guaranteed to take a game from 'in the lvl9 warriors favor' to 'ahahah fuck you you don't have a legendary or even cards to deal with my legendary'.
 

Emarv

Member
The fucking 4/5 that deathrattles for another 4/5 for 6 mana, I don't know the name. 8/10 worth of stuff for 6. Practically guaranteed to take a game from 'in the lvl9 warriors favor' to 'ahahah fuck you you don't have a legendary or even cards to deal with my legendary'.

Look into Zoo Warlock or Trump's Free to Play Mage. Very good, efficient decks are often cheap. It just takes proper understanding of which cards are good and which are poor.
 

Minsc

Gold Member
The fucking 4/5 that deathrattles for another 4/5 for 6 mana, I don't know the name. 8/10 worth of stuff for 6. Practically guaranteed to take a game from 'in the lvl9 warriors favor' to 'ahahah fuck you you don't have a legendary or even cards to deal with my legendary'.

It's a great card, but slow and trades 1:1 against other cards like boulderfist ogre. It's important to have a plan with your deck (and also realize when your plan isn't viable, it happens all the time, and either concede or find a new way to win), and if you are lacking the cards to have a game that lasts 8+ turns, you need to try and build decks that can win before turn 8 (many decks can win in the first 6 turns). Caine being slow makes it a bad card against many faster decks.

Not all decks are suited to win against all other decks, and you need to realize if you're playing a control game without key cards, you'll lose to other people playing control with those cards. If that bothers you, there's ways to get those cards, unfortunately they require money or being good at arena. But many people have successfully been able to do it.

And ultimately there really is no point to it all. Just have fun with what you have and set realistic goals, find decks you can put together and substitute what you're missing for the most logical choices. You don't get anything for winning 100 games in a row or having all the cards and making incredible decks. People who make legendary still lose to regular players (and probably feel quite embarrassed if they're sporting the legendary card backs and golden hero portrait).
 
Half the time Rag would potentially hit some crappy 1/1 token, then die to BGH after getting faceless'd. You can only drop him safely if your opponent lets you a lot of the time.

It's easy to say rag won him the game, but definitely not always true. Perhaps more true than not if you have no cards, but there's a whole lot more going on in those 7 or 8 turns than many people realize, especially when they're new. There are so many cards to play around each turn, forcing poor trades, it could easily have been over-commiting to the board, or playing a large minion instead of two smaller ones (or vice-versa) that lead to the conditions where your opponent playing a Rag would win. There's RNG of course, but it usually works both ways, and when you have Rag yourself, you'll see it's not a card you can blindly play to win the game (I tend to feel when I have Rag in hand, there's more times I wish I had another legendary instead, as playing him isn't going to do what I need).

No it won the game for him, flat out. It killed my stupid useless 6/7 ogre shit you get with the starting cards. The fact that he could kill the ogre in that turn and then have 8 damage again the next turn sealed the deal for him.

It was well in my favor until 'lol legendaries shit all over the efficiency of your stupid starter cards'.
 

Minsc

Gold Member
No it won the game for him, flat out. It killed my stupid useless 6/7 ogre shit you get with the starting cards. The fact that he could kill the ogre in that turn and then have 8 damage again the next turn sealed the deal for him.

It sounds like you're not following what I'm saying. By having only a 6/7 on the board on turn his turn 8 you invited that play (and if you have 3 other targets and it hit your 6/7, well that's RNG. You will just have to accept sometimes RNG will work against you and there's little you can do, and other times, most times, it will hit the smaller targets). It was your earlier turns that caused you to lose.

Either way, the game seeks to make you lose half your games, and when you start going on win streaks beating other new players, it will adjust and give you harder matches, whether it's by bad players with better cards or better players with similar cards.

If they were really that great they wouldn't be playing you after all. So even though you feel Rag lost you the game, or Caine, or whatever legendary, that you're playing them at all means the other player isn't really winning that much more than you with those cards.
 
I also like how you listed stuff like BGH and faceless as 'oh you can deal with him'. Yeah, great, rare cards I don't have will deal with the rare cards I don't have. There is so little useful stuff like that in the starter cards.
 

Xanathus

Member
I also like how you listed stuff like BGH and faceless as 'oh you can deal with him'. Yeah, great, rare cards I don't have will deal with the rare cards I don't have. There is so little useful stuff like that in the starter cards.

The whole point of a collectible card game is to get you to obtain better and better cards, and it's pointless if the better cards are beaten or are equal to the starter cards. You've simply won too much and ranked up too high to the point that you're matched against better players who have better cards, so now you're going to lose until you meet other players who have just as basic cards like yourself. That's the whole point of the ranking system and it's the only way it can possibly work.
 

slayn

needs to show more effort.
This is something I wrote a while ago on the hearthstone forums pertaining to having to buy cards/legendaries adn whether there should be a 'no legendary' matchmaking or something like that:

The problem, and I believe there is a problem, is more nuanced than I think most people give it credit for. The 'facts' somewhat change depending on the skill of the player involved. Do legendaries make your deck better than your opponents? The answer is not a simple yes or no. The real answer is: The better you are at the game the less the rarity of your cards relative to your opponent's matter.

And so you get strong players who will say legendary cards aren't better and so forth. And they aren't lying per say, but it also isn't strictly true when the game is being played at a low rank. When you're new to the game, you rely on the quality of your cards much more strongly. And because of this, one player having tirion and the other having nothing is a big deal.

But I think most of the people who do in fact see this as a problem are approaching the solution from the wrong direction. Measuring the 'strength' of a deck based on rarity or dust or anything like that is flawed. And the reason is because, as I said above, the strength of the cards in a deck changes dynamically based on the skill of the player and the synergy of their deck.

The real problem, as I see it, is this: Players who are new to the game are generally not going to create decks with a honed, well designed game plan. They both don't have the experience to even know how to make a top deck like that nor do they have all the very specific cards needed to make that happen.

Instead, they are going to make decks by throwing in cards that they generally think are good cards. Doing this will result in some kind of value/control deck. And they're going to get faced against people making their own value/control deck. And in these matchups, one player having legendaries while the other doesn't will strongly swing the game.

Why? Because a value/control deck needs strong end-game cards to complement it. And for whatever reason blizzard decided not to include strong common cards in the 6-10 mana slot.

At 6 you get boulderfist ogre plus some mediocre cards. At 7 you get stormwind champion which is... okish. And 8-10 nothing. This means that someone just making a value deck with generally good cards tops out at 6 mana. And when their opponent has access to 7-10 mana cards for their decks and their opponent doesn't that is a large handicap.

But the solution isn't to try and come up with some complicated match making that won't end up working anyway. The solution is to introduce powerful common minions in the 6 - 10 mana range that are on a powerful level equivalent with rag and ysera. We see this already with Boulderfist Ogre. Sure, given the option most people would play Cairne over Ogre but they really are quite comparable and there are many situations where Ogre is better. And I think even top players would be surprised at how effective Ogre would be if they would just swap Cairne for Ogre and play a few games. He's not complicated or 'cool' he is just a solid powerful card.

I believe that if you introduced new high end common cards a lot of the perceived problems would lessen because new players feel like they're only 40 dust away from a card that can compete at that level.

When people complain about being f2p and the cards they can't deal with they aren't talking about lorewalker cho, tinkmaster, or millhouse manastorm. They're probably not even talking about Harrison Jones or Black Knight. They're talking about Rag, Ysera, Alextrasa, Tirion, and so forth. And the very legitimate reason they are complaining is because there aren't any cards at that power level they are allowed to play. I see it as a flaw in Blizzard's design that there aren't comparable common cards at that level for new players to play with. But it is one that is readily fixable with the next expansion of cards.
 
That's unfortunate. A good education cannot be replaced, and eventually she will want to stop streaming(can't stream in your 60s I think, and without having a pension/retirement setup you can be in a lot of trouble especially if you don't invest while you have money, let alone if the economy crashes)

Kibler streams and he is pretty old (not THAT old) but I'd probably watch him regardless of his age. He is starting to make more of a name for himself among HS and he is still in the MTG scene and still working on solforge with stoneblade entertainment. Where he finds the time to stream is nuts.
 

ViviOggi

Member
Either way, the game seeks to make you lose half your games, and when you start going on win streaks beating other new players, it will adjust and give you harder matches, whether it's by bad players with better cards or better players with similar cards.
You keep saying this and I understand what you mean but this is the wrong way of looking at it. The matchmaking system isn't inherently set up to make you lose half your games, Blizzard doesn't gain anything from forcing losses on players. A 50-50 winrate is simply what you'll eventually, long-term, plateau at once the matchmaker has collected enough data to place you at the correct skill level and you stop improving. An even w/l rate for the bulk of players is not the goal, it's a byproduct of the matchmaker doing its job. And as long as you're improving faster than the average player you'll be able to rise above it.
 

ShinNL

Member
Well, Miracle Rogue definitely isn't dead. Just got my daily quite easily with pretty much the usual Miracle Rogue deck but instead of trying to get 3 cards, you just try to get 4 cards. Running only 1 Faceless and 1 Southsea Deckhand.

Priest players was making it hard to get my daily with Warrior, so I quickly put together the Rogue deck and lo and behold, the Priests died. Not much to Shadow Word or steal, bitches :D
 
Legendaries do make your deck better. Flat out. That fucking tauren is 8/10 of stuff for 6. That's just better. You have that, it's way better. And that's not even in the top tier of legendaries. Goddamn

I mean you could argue, hey there's silences, polymorphs.


But guess how many of those you get as a starter warrior.
 

Xanathus

Member
Legendaries do make your deck better. Flat out. That fucking tauren is 8/10 of stuff for 6. That's just better. You have that, it's way better. And that's not even in the top tier of legendaries. Goddamn

I mean you could argue, hey there's silences, polymorphs.


But guess how many of those you get as a starter warrior.

It is better. You don't have it. You are unlikely to win with players who have better decks than you. Deal with it.
 

slayn

needs to show more effort.
Legendaries do make your deck better. Flat out. That fucking tauren is 8/10 of stuff for 6. That's just better. You have that, it's way better. And that's not even in the top tier of legendaries. Goddamn

I mean you could argue, hey there's silences, polymorphs.


But guess how many of those you get as a starter warrior.
While I sympathize with new players who haven't spent money in my post above, this is just wrong. Evaluating Cairne as an 8/10 is a very poor way of evaluating the card that shows your inexperience. It is closer to a 4/10, or 14 stats for 6 which is only 1 stat better than a boulderfist ogre. And to compensate for the 1 point difference cairne is much less threatening (4 attack vs 6) and has his stats divided (which is a downside). If your opponent is winning and you play cairne, 4 attack is small enough that they can just ignore it and damage race you. Ogre makes that much more difficult.
 
Legendaries do make your deck better. Flat out. That fucking tauren is 8/10 of stuff for 6. That's just better. You have that, it's way better. And that's not even in the top tier of legendaries. Goddamn

I mean you could argue, hey there's silences, polymorphs.


But guess how many of those you get as a starter warrior.

Cairne is in the top tier of legendaries (when I said the Tauren legendary was bad, I thought you were referring to a different one, "ETC"), it's probably top two with Loatheb. The other guy had one of the best cards in the game and you had no answer to it as a new player, these things happen
 

Minsc

Gold Member
You keep saying this and I understand what you mean but this is the wrong way of looking at it. The matchmaking system isn't inherently set up to make you lose half your games, Blizzard doesn't gain anything from forcing losses on players. A 50-50 winrate is simply what you'll eventually, long-term, plateau at once the matchmaker has collected enough data to place you at the correct skill level and you stop improving. An even w/l rate for the bulk of players is not the goal, it's a byproduct of the matchmaker doing its job. And as long as you're improving faster than the average player you'll be able to rise above it.

It's just I like to warn players who think "I was winning every game I played, now it's all legendaries" that that's not how matchmaking works... if you won 10 games in a row, that mean 10 other people lost and it's not really fair if you can just win all your games, so the system places you at a higher skill level. I just find it healthy looking at it as a system that aims to make you lose half the time, so people don't expect to keep winning their matches.

This is something I wrote a while ago on the hearthstone forums pertaining to having to buy cards/legendaries adn whether there should be a 'no legendary' matchmaking or something like that:

This is a good write-up and evaluation, and I do agree with it generally. You need to have a game plan for every match and know when that plan isn't viable (like if you're playing miracle rogue and you see you're going up against a warrior, your game plan might immediately change). Not having powerful late game cards and playing a control-type game will lead to you losing, and I do wish there were better 6-10 mana cards.

I feel recently they really upped the ante for the 5-mana spot, and hopefully soon they do that for the 6,7, and 8 spots as well. They claim the breakdown of the value / mana cost for a card changes over higher levels of mana, but then you still have legendaries breaking that rule and offering much more value than other costs at the same cost.
 

ViviOggi

Member
Legendaries do make your deck better. Flat out. That fucking tauren is 8/10 of stuff for 6. That's just better. You have that, it's way better. And that's not even in the top tier of legendaries. Goddamn

I mean you could argue, hey there's silences, polymorphs.


But guess how many of those you get as a starter warrior.

Warrior is not a good beginner class if you're looking to play a control-style game, one of the main reasons being its lack of efficient and cheap removal. Control Warrior is and always has been the most expensive deck in the game.
If you're just starting out and are dead set on sticking with Warrior you'll have to go in either a full-on aggro or a tempo oriented direction until you've acquired a better pool of cards to work with. It is what it is, on the other hand classes like Shaman, Mage or Paladin offer decent control options with their class cards alone.
 
It is better. You don't have it. You are unlikely to win with players who have better decks than you. Deal with it.

I could play one of the many, many PvP games that have a playing field that's even for both players. I mean probably will. Which sucks, because I actually like the hearthstone card game itself, and I'd play the shit out of it if it wasn't surrounded by a system that obnoxiously tilts the playing field against new players.

Fuck if they even had free to enter arena mode, it would be great. But nope, can't just let the new players into the even playing field as much as they want.
 
Warrior is not a good beginner class if you're looking to play a control-style game, one of the main reasons being its lack of efficient and cheap removal. Control Warrior is and always has been the most expensive deck in the game.
If you're just starting out and are dead set on sticking with Warrior you'll have to go in either a full-on aggro or a tempo oriented direction until you've acquired a better pool of cards to work with. It is what it is, on the other hand classes like Shaman, Mage or Paladin offer decent control options with their class cards alone.

I just want to level each class to 10 ;;
 

Xanathus

Member
I could play one of the many, many PvP games that have a playing field that's even for both players. I mean probably will. Which sucks, because I actually like the hearthstone card game itself, and I'd play the shit out of it if it wasn't surrounded by a system that didn't obnoxiously tilt the playing field against new players.

Fuck if they even had free to enter arena mode, it would be great. But nope, can't just let the new players into the even playing field as much as they want.

At some point they have to make money. Other F2P games also have ways to nickel and dime you, I feel Hearthstone's is one of the least obnoxious (DOTA2 is of course the best), so you just have to pick between either spending time or money to get better cards. That's how all F2P games generally go.
 

ViviOggi

Member
It's just I like to warn players who think "I was winning every game I played, now it's all legendaries" that that's not how matchmaking works... if you won 10 games in a row, that mean 10 other people lost and it's not really fair if you can just win all your games, so the system places you at a higher skill level. I just find it healthy looking at it as a system that aims to make you lose half the time, so people don't expect to keep winning their matches.

Right, we're on the same page here, I guess I'm scarred from Dota where "forced 50" etc. is a common complaint by people who don't realize they're maybe just not as good as they think they are as well (where it's actually completely ridiculous due to an 100% even playing field).
 

iirate

Member
I could play one of the many, many PvP games that have a playing field that's even for both players. I mean probably will. Which sucks, because I actually like the hearthstone card game itself, and I'd play the shit out of it if it wasn't surrounded by a system that obnoxiously tilts the playing field against new players.

Fuck if they even had free to enter arena mode, it would be great. But nope, can't just let the new players into the even playing field as much as they want.

Also, I need to stress that a lot of the tilt against new players is more about a lack of experience than a lack of cards. Trump(and other experienced players) have built entirely free decks and played them to legend rank without spending a cent on them, and they get there with far better win/loss ratios than many other players playing their netdecks loaded with legendaries.

Boulderfist Ogre, for example, is actually a very respectable card that has seen competitive play. The real starting grind isn't earning your OP cards, but learning the game and matchups.

I got into the beta week 1 of closed and thus I was able to build up quite the collection before even open beta. When Blizzard reset everyone's collections, I decided to level all of my classes to 10 in ladder, without using anything other than the basic cards that I earned. Not only was leveling the characters easy, but I was quite successful on the ladder.

All of that said, I eventually got burnt out and eventually stopped playing. Even with my experience and collection, I've needed to study the current meta and get some play experience with it in order to compete.
 
Also, I need to stress that a lot of the tilt against new players is more about a lack of experience than a lack of cards. Trump(and other experienced players) have built entirely free decks and played them to legend rank without spending a cent on them, and they get there with far better win/loss ratios than many other players playing their netdecks loaded with legendaries.

Boulderfist Ogre, for example, is actually a very respectable card that has seen competitive play. The real starting grind isn't earning your OP cards, but learning the game and matchups.

I got into the beta week 1 of closed and thus I was able to build up quite the collection before even open beta. That said, I eventually got burnt out and stopped playing. Even with my experience and collection, I've needed to study the current meta and get some play experience with it in order to compete.

That's pretty much irrelevant. The game's best players can do well with free cards? Well, yeah they're the best and I'm not one of them and no new player is. I'm not even at the stage where I'm committing to building first decent deck yet, I'm still trying to hit 10 on every hero. And I get thrown into games where I'm inexperienced AND the other guy has a better deck.

And the only solution, the fair mode I could go to to play with fair deck building while I get more experience is locked away behind in game currency I don't have much of yet.
 

iirate

Member
That's pretty much irrelevant. The game's best players can do well with free cards? Well, yeah but I'm not one of them and no new player is. I'm not even at the stage where I'm committing to building first decent deck yet, I'm still trying to hit 10 on every hero. And I get thrown into games where I'm inexperienced AND the other guy has a better deck.

And the only solution, the fair mode I could go to to play with fair deck building while I get more experience is locked away behind in game currency I don't have yet.

We're in agreement. My point is that everyone needs to put their time into learning the game, just like any other. Those awesome legendaries(and they are awesome, no arguments there) aren't going to magically allow you to skip learning the game, but learning the game will also teach you how to succeed even without those power cards. It's no different from most other PvP experiences.

I get that you want a better deck to learn with, but I guess that I'm trying to say you should try to not stress out over losing at this point, as those better cards wouldn't help as much as you'd think.
 
This is your answer. Play against the AI until level 10 for each class. It'll give you a better understanding of each class and get you all of the basic cards for each class.

God no. The AI is an idiot, you don't get experience from that. And I certainly won't get any more gold.
 
God no. The AI is an idiot, you don't get experience from that. And I certainly won't get any more gold.

Pick your poison then. If you are just trying to get each class to 10 and are struggling with a class with little standard removal, either play the AI or try and plow through players with better decks. Most people these days have legendaries, it's just that simple
 

gutshot

Member
I don't even bother getting mad when someone beats me because they have better cards. I get mad when someone beats me because I have made suboptimal plays. But if I feel like I played a good game and they just had better cards, I shrug it off and move on to the next game.
 
I love this deck so damn much. Farsight has been the best thing ever. Also, I'd like to thank Rivendare for a special appearance.
4mnmvcK.jpg
 

Bisnic

Really Really Exciting Member!
What exactly are those golden cards you get at lvl 15? I unlocked golden arcane intellect yesterday and it seem to be the exact same thing as the regular one. Is it just an extra arcane intellect so you can use it more than twice?
 

iirate

Member
I don't even bother getting mad when someone beats me because they have better cards. I get mad when someone beats me because I have made suboptimal plays. But if I feel like I played a good game and they just had better cards, I shrug it off and move on to the next game.

I'm the same way. It's really hard for someone else to make me angry in any sort of competitive game, but if I know that I've made a big mistake or am playing poorly in general, I tend to beat myself up over it.

What exactly are those golden cards you get at lvl 15? I unlocked golden arcane intellect yesterday and it seem to be the exact same thing as the regular one. Is it just an extra arcane intellect so you can use it more than twice?

Golden cards are just cosmetic upgrades to the cards you already have. You could have 2 regular Arcane Intellect, 1 regular and 1 golden, or 2 golden ones in your deck. They count as the same card.
 

Emarv

Member
What exactly are those golden cards you get at lvl 15? I unlocked golden arcane intellect yesterday and it seem to be the exact same thing as the regular one. Is it just an extra arcane intellect so you can use it more than twice?

Golden cards are essentially just foil versions of cards. Each class has a list of golden neutral cards they unlock as they level up each hero. Some golden cards only come through boosters.
 

ViviOggi

Member
What exactly are those golden cards you get at lvl 15? I unlocked golden arcane intellect yesterday and it seem to be the exact same thing as the regular one. Is it just an extra arcane intellect so you can use it more than twice?
Golden cards are like foils in physical CCGs, just rare, fancy versions of regular cards. They count as the same card so no, no more than two per deck. Past level 10 you unlock golden cards from the Basic set via class levels so they don't clutter Expert packs.
 
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