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Hearthstone |OT3| Preparing for the Ball of Spiders Meta

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Most people run Gnomish Inventors and Loat Hoarders in the deck along with Slam for card draws. The deck is very dependent and in some cases Acolyte and Battle Rage may not be enough.

Gadgetan is interesting but I am not sure how viable it would be in the deck. It does have many cheap spells to use with Gadgetan so maybe he's on to something.

My guess is that it provides card draw plus a 4/4 body, which is going to help both in mirrors (obviously) but also for the cases when you need a semi-threat on the board as well. With whirlwind it could take out a belcher for instance while drawing a card and making a patron target.

I was thinking about how incredibly inefficient it is for 6 mana, and that warriors don't have something like prep that can really take full advantage of it, but I remembered Emperor is in the game now. I can plausibly see it getting a ton of value with 0-mana whirlwinds or executes and 1-mana battle rages or slams, or with rampage like he has in his deck.

It's definitely interesting, atleast, but I don't feel like card draw is as important a part of patron warrior as it was with miracle rogue. I don't know what he took out to make room for gadgetzan(s) and rampage, though.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I was thinking about how incredibly inefficient it is for 6 mana, and that warriors don't have something like prep that can really take full advantage of it, but I remembered Emperor is in the game now. I can plausibly see it getting a ton of value with 0-mana whirlwinds or executes and 1-mana battle rages or slams, or with rampage like he has in his deck.

It's definitely interesting, atleast, but I don't feel like card draw is as important a part of patron warrior as it was with miracle rogue. I don't know what he took out to make room for gadgetzan(s) and rampage, though.
Yeah they have two Inner Rages too which costs 0 mana. When Emperor gets played you also have 0 mana Whirlwinds, 0 mana Executes, 1 mana Slams and 1 mana Battle Rages.


It's definitely interesting, atleast, but I don't feel like card draw is as important a part of patron warrior as it was with miracle rogue. I don't know what he took out to make room for gadgetzan(s) and rampage, though.
In this deck card draw is EXTREMELY important and probably as important as Miracle Rogue. You want as many combo pieces as your hand as possible because that dictates how much damage you can potentially do in a single turn. This deck is the closest we have to Miracle Rogue as well.
 

Maximo

Member
Whats a few good decks to play these days ? Haven't compiled new Decks in awhile and wondering what to use If I want to play for fun and something for Ranked.
 

johnsmith

remember me

jiiikoo

Banned
Just played against a paladin that had Tirion. Conceded (at 28 life) after I killed it and had a Ooze to destroy the weapon. Feels good.

EDIT: In the arena
 

Dahbomb

Member
Whats a few good decks to play these days ? Haven't compiled new Decks in awhile and wondering what to use If I want to play for fun and something for Ranked.
Zoolock (the Midrange variant) and Grim Patron are the best decks, I also think Handlock is really good currently. Grim Patron is the most fun though but tough to play because it's very combo oriented.
 

Raxus

Member
Grim Patron Warrior is the best and most fun deck in the game right now.
http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/485476-card-choices-in-patron-warrior

This is true. I worry they may nerf the deck however. It would be a shame since this is the most viable warrior has been since GvG first came out.

Whats a few good decks to play these days ? Haven't compiled new Decks in awhile and wondering what to use If I want to play for fun and something for Ranked.

Ramp druid is good as always and Handlock is starting to pop back in. Demonlock is still around as well but quickly losing favor since everyone knows their tricks.

Easiest decks to assemble and play are probably Grim Patron (super fun to boot) and the Zoolock which is seeing a resurgence thanks to Imp Gang Boss. They also are easily in the top 3 decks at the moment along with Face Hunter (scumbags).

Freeze Mage, Spell mage, Wallet Warrior, Midrange Hunter, seem to be the other popular decks. Priest, Paladin, and ESPECIALLY Shaman got the short end of the stick sadly. Oil Rouge is still viable but I don't see it often. Mill is all but dead (Patron goes to town on it anyway).
 

Dahbomb

Member
This is true. I worry they may nerf the deck however. It would be a shame since this is the most viable warrior has been since GvG first came out.
Some of the language they used in that interview worries me... mostly that part about them bringing up old decks that got nerfed in reference to Grim Patron.

Would be really fucking stupid if Grim Patron gets nerfed before Dr Balanced.

Also ironically Control Warrior is pretty strong right now because it has a good match up against Grim Patron.
 

Raxus

Member
What saddens me is Patron basically subverts scumbag decks and pulls out crazy wins typically. If they nerf it hard enough then it just brings back those decks in force which they won't do shit about.
 

Dahbomb

Member
What saddens me is Patron basically subverts scumbag decks and pulls out crazy wins typically. If they nerf it hard enough then it just brings back those decks in force which they won't do shit about.
Which scumbag decks? Combo Druid? That deck still does fine and can still win against Grim Patron deck. Or are you talking about Face Hunter and Mech Mage?
 
I don't really have much of a problem with Patron.

My issue is the ridiculous Warsong Commander-Frothing Berserker combos. Oh hey, let's give it charge then buff it up to 20 damage because you dared to contest the board. Honestly would like to see a change to Warsong Commander so that if a minion goes above 3 attack it loses the charge effect.

Of course, this could just be my Shaman saltiness talking.
 

Raxus

Member
Which scumbag decks? Combo Druid? That deck still does fine and can still win against Grim Patron deck. Or are you talking about Face Hunter and Mech Mage?

Face Hunter, Freeze Mage, Mech Mage (to a small extent, I still respect this deck)

Basically decks that rely on little thinking or exploiting a mechanic in the game. Handlock and Zoo are quickly reaching this status as well.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I don't think Freeze Mage requires little thinking at all. Scumbag yes... but let's be real here for a second.. Grim Patron is a scummy deck, as is Combo Druid, as is that new Zoolock deck. If your deck isn't scummy then it probably isn't that good.

And Mech Mage was phased out because the new Zoolock is basically a better Mech Mage. Had little to do with Grim Patron and more to do with the new Zoolock. Mech Mage can't really win against that unless they top dick Fireballs... Mech Mage simply runs out of steam way earlier than Zoolock.
 

Raxus

Member
I am not going to deny Grim is scummy, it does OTK in some cases.

As far as freeze mage, yes the deck requires a lot of thought but it does exploit value mad scientist to it's full potential as your board typically can't do shit but watch as your life ticks down to 0. It is super unfun to play against until Grim came along and Warrior being Freeze's naturally enemy came along and crushed it.

I am just ranting at this point, can't we all agree Shaman needs to be thrown a big bone?

The new BRM cards a step in the right direction but they really gotta find an angle for shamans to appear as a blip on the radar.

If your deck has a name, then it is scummy.
All Legendary deck ;P
scummy for a whole 'nother reason
 
If your deck has a name, then it is scummy.

Phantom Train is scummy?
cry.gif
 
I am just ranting at this point, can't we all agree Shaman needs to be thrown a big bone?

The new BRM cards a step in the right direction but they really gotta find an angle for shamans to appear as a blip on the radar.

I'm not counting on it honestly, considering in that interview they did with PC Gamer the answer they gave was essentially "mech Shaman does okay and we could add more overload stuff in the future."
 
I'm not counting on it honestly, considering in that interview they did with PC Gamer the answer they gave was essentially "mech Shaman does okay and we could add more overload stuff in the future."

That is the thing though, shaman needs better overload cards to be worth running lava shock. Lava shock itself is pretty baller imo. The problem is you have to run pretty bad cards to get value out of it.
 
That is the thing though, shaman needs better overload cards to be worth running lava shock. Lava shock itself is pretty baller imo. The problem is you have to run pretty bad cards to get value out of it.

But what's going to actually make Lava Shock worth running? A bunch of low mana/high overload cards? Even then, you're punished even harder for playing them on curve. It's why I wish Lava Shock was a 0 mana card that unlocked your mana crystals without the two damage.

Essentially the only thing that's going to get Lava shock more play is if you have more really good cards with overload 3+ or if there are such a plentiful amount of good overload cards that you're playing several of them on the same turn which seems unlikely considering Shaman's draw is generally considered substandard.

It's just hard to imagine a scenario where Lava Shock starts to see considerable play but maybe Blizzard will come up with ideas that make it worthwhile.
 
But what's going to actually make Lava Shock worth running? A bunch of low mana/high overload cards? Even then, you're punished even harder for playing them on curve. It's why I wish Lava Shock was a 0 mana card that unlocked your mana crystals without the two damage.

Essentially the only thing that's going to get Lava shock more play is if you have more really good cards with overload 3+ or if there are such a plentiful amount of good overload cards that you're playing several of them on the same turn which seems unlikely considering Shaman's draw is generally considered substandard.

It's just hard to imagine a scenario where Lava Shock starts to see considerable play but maybe Blizzard will come up with ideas that make it worthwhile.

What will make lava shock worth running?

Better overload cards, like I just said. Also I'd imagine with some time people will better optimize shaman with the current pool. Fireguard destroyer is as good as I thought it would be, but people are really focused on grim patron warrior it seems.

Lava shock is well designed at 2 mana I think. I'd also prefer to get some guaranteed value out of the card rather than hoping to hit it big every time.

Shaman card draw is fine. On the other hand, early game for other classes has improved quite a bit meanwhile shaman's early game has become somewhat shoehorned into very aggressive or too reactive. Fireguard destroyer has no doubt helped in this regard. I think they need a 1 or 2 drop to really get them back into things, something good like minibot has been for paladin. I'm not quite sure what that would be, but probably a 2/3 stat distribution with overload synergy - maybe something like "when an overload is paid, make this immune to damage until the end of the turn".
 

Kenaras

Member
Yeah, Lava Shock is terrible. If you're overloaded for 1, it's an Arcane Shot or Holy Smite. If you're overloaded for 2 it becomes potentially good, but situational. It's only when overloaded for 3+ that it really starts to shine.

Removal is situational by nature, and it's doubly true for low-damage removal. If there's no good Lava Shock target on the turn you're heavily overloaded, using it is a waste. If you're not overloaded on the turn you need to Lava Shock, it's overcosted.

Overload is also one of the most misunderstood mechanics in the game. For some reason people think of Feral Spirit as a 3-cost card, or Fireguard Destroyer as a 4-cost card, with overload as a drawback. No; that's not how it works. Those are both 5-cost cards, and you need to treat them as such during card evaluation, during deck construction, and when planning your turns.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Aside from Mana Tide totem, Shamans don't actually have a good way to draw multiple cards and even that is a bit iffy. They need a solid two for one draw like Vigil or Arcane Intellect. They are stuck using Azure Drakes for their draws.
 

Rapstah

Member
I thought about this quote some more:
MD: For me, my main goal is not actually to get cards into decks permanently, but to have people experiment with new ideas a lot, which is slightly different. So, for example, Flamewaker caused people to try out decks with tons of spells in them. And some people had some success with that, but more importantly they experimented with it. So even if the Dragon decks, after a month of experimentation, don’t end up being the best decks—as long as people have had a lot of fun trying things out, then we've succeeded in one of our main goals. Grim Patron has shown up in a couple classes even though we expected it to be mainly Warrior or mainly Mage, and that’s pretty awesome too.
Maybe the point of BRM was to create cards that would make people go "woah, I have to try that card with combo X or with card Y" and see the meta shift from that? Rend, Thaurissan, Chromaggus, Nefarian, Dragonkin Sorcerer, Patron, all neutral cards that all classes have ways to make use of in theory. Maybe for that design idea to work completely, you also need more classes and decks to be viable before introducing the weird, unpredictable tech cards.
 

johnsmith

remember me
Ok, if my aim is just a gold rogue, aggro/backspace is the way to go. Games just go by way too fast, so even if the win rate is lower than oil, you win more because you play more games. Just gotta find a good list.
 

Kenaras

Member
Ok, if my aim is just a gold rogue, aggro/backspace is the way to go. Games just go by way too fast, so even if the win rate is lower than oil, you win more because you play more games. Just gotta find a good list.

Yeah, I've used a variation of classic Backspace for doing Rogue dailies in Casual. It gets the job done very quickly, and I didn't need to use any dust. Don't know what a tuned list would look like these days, though.
 

MMaRsu

Member
Guys i need some help. I downloaded hearthstone thru the amazon app but I deleted it awhile back. Now Hearthstone needs an update but I cant get the amazon app
 

Rapstah

Member
They're going to kill Dank Warrior dead, Blizz hates true combo decks

Something something non-interactive (unless it's Druid)

They'll probably re-nerf Warsong Commander so it's "Your minions with 3 attack or less have Charge". I'll bet they forgot about Frothing Berserker when they changed Warsong to work with Patron.
 

FeD.nL

Member
I thought about this quote some more:

Maybe the point of BRM was to create cards that would make people go "woah, I have to try that card with combo X or with card Y" and see the meta shift from that? Rend, Thaurissan, Chromaggus, Nefarian, Dragonkin Sorcerer, Patron, all neutral cards that all classes have ways to make use of in theory. Maybe for that design idea to work completely, you also need more classes and decks to be viable before introducing the weird, unpredictable tech cards.

I really get the idea that Blizzard does not have a clear idea where it wants to be with the product in a few years. I mean Ofcourse noone probably anticipated it to be such a big hit but still. Looking at Naxxramas, that was a solid adventure for both newcomers and veterans, someone just starting out would get solid cards for any deck. Why change that template with BRM? The game already is becoming increasingly frustrating for newcomers and here we have an adventure that adds a lot of cards that require deeper knowledge of the game with no clear UI elements explaining that Naxxramas would be better for a newcomer.

I really hope the new set we'll probably get at the end of the year shakes things up, and we get some more ways to play RL opponents beyond ranked and arena.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Warsong Commander and Frothing has been a combo since forever. Suddenly now it is too strong? You can't tell me that Grim Patron is fine and then the Frothing combo is totes broke. Patron Warrior is a thing because Patron. Not Frothing.
 

caesar

Banned
The patron deck is fine for many reasons. Its powerful yeah, but it takes alot of skill to win against anyone half decent. A bad player can't just pick it up an winstreak to rank 5 like you can with face hunter. Plus its not even that hard to counter, in fact people already found a few. It is also keeps in check the scumbag decks such as tempo mage, zoo, face etc.

Blizz would be fools to nerf it anytime soon. If you hate combo decks dont make a fucking combo card. Meanwhile Druid will never get a good class card ever again because the combo is truely dumb as shit and Shaman is a fundamentally bad class.
 

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
I don't really have much of a problem with Patron.

My issue is the ridiculous Warsong Commander-Frothing Berserker combos. Oh hey, let's give it charge then buff it up to 20 damage because you dared to contest the board. Honestly would like to see a change to Warsong Commander so that if a minion goes above 3 attack it loses the charge effect.

Of course, this could just be my Shaman saltiness talking.

I'd be okay with this honestly.
 

V-Faction

Member
Overload as a mechanic was made to represent the bursty-nature of the Shaman class, yeah? 14 cards all come with the Overload text, yet there's only 1(!) with any synergy (Unbound Elemental). It feels like a severe imbalance. Take a look at the Combo mechanic of Rogues or the self-damage mechanic of Warriors or the healing Mechanics of Priest, and the reason they work is because of the excellent synergy they possess. Meanwhile, the singular advantage of being able to play these Overload cards super early doesn't work when you may not want to take advantage of them.

And then there's the Shaman card draw, which feels like it has 0 burst comparatively. You've got Mana Tide Totem (a cool card admittedly) or Far Sight. Those cards allow for 1-for-1 card draw a.k.a. sustained card draw. The other card draw/gain options are Silftfin Spiritwalker and Neptulon. Both would be cool for their Murlocs if Shaman wasn't already juggling Totems, Mechs, Dragons, and whatever else class of card (plus, again, zero Overload synergy out of those). To fix this, something akin to Solem Vigil, Arcane Intellect, Sprint, or Battle Rage would have to be introduced.

And another weird thing: Shamans are the Totem class, yet don't possess a way to summon more than 1 Totem at once, even among the standard hero power versions. If Paladins get Mustard, give Shamans Catchup.

Seems like you could fix all these little problems with a few tweaks. Such as: Maybe give Totems buff synergy when using Overload? Or reclassify all the Elemental cards in the game to work with Overload. Or make the act of unlocking your locked Mana Crystals give card draw (with Lava Shock or simply with another card). How about giving Neptulon the option to drop Totems? Make the 0-cost cards not crap? There's got to be ways to think outside the box, to propel the class into something more interesting.

For a while I thought the bros at Blizzard were slowly going down the Deathrattle/Reincarnate route with Shaman as a class. That is to say, one which relied on the act of killing/revitalizing its own minions to create combos, pull of tactics, and unlock abilities. That would've been a fairly unique niche for a class but pretty darn creative.
 

Raxus

Member
I am surprised Shaman doesn't have a card that reads "You gain ________ for every overload crystal you have this turn"

Seems like the natural progression shaman should take to keep up the momentum secured by overloading in the first place.
 
But what's going to actually make Lava Shock worth running? A bunch of low mana/high overload cards? Even then, you're punished even harder for playing them on curve. It's why I wish Lava Shock was a 0 mana card that unlocked your mana crystals without the two damage.

Essentially the only thing that's going to get Lava shock more play is if you have more really good cards with overload 3+ or if there are such a plentiful amount of good overload cards that you're playing several of them on the same turn which seems unlikely considering Shaman's draw is generally considered substandard.

It's just hard to imagine a scenario where Lava Shock starts to see considerable play but maybe Blizzard will come up with ideas that make it worthwhile.

Lava Shock tries to do too much, and that really hurts it. Because of the 2 mana cost, it doesn't really help you unlock any crystals in the early game. Even if you do turn 3 Feral Spirits, turn 4 Lava Shock + 2 drop/hero power, all you really got out of it was a Backstab. As it is now, it's basically Shaman's second failed version of Preparation or Innervate.
 
Warsong Commander and Frothing has been a combo since forever. Suddenly now it is too strong? You can't tell me that Grim Patron is fine and then the Frothing combo is totes broke. Patron Warrior is a thing because Patron. Not Frothing.

You can't say frothing did not get stronger with patron either. And sure, warsong commander and frothing was possible, not that it was ever used even in the combo/otk warrior.

I can completely see why people think frothing might be a might needing addressing, even if they didn't think it was a problem before. It certainly wasn't shown to be a problem, but still could have been a problem nonetheless, and after taken into the spotlight when a deck as strong as patron warrior is - maybe it was always a "hidden" problem. I've always felt like the OTK warrior was a big scumbag and exists despite blizzard's claims to not want OTKs.

All I'm saying is that you have to think of the situation from a different perspective than before, and that is just how it works in card games. Old cards can be easily become the most broken cards in the game when another card is introduced into the game. Although I am not saying any of that myself in this instance.
 

Cagey

Banned
Is every weenie, stompy, or RDW-stylized deck considered "scumbag" in Hearthstone or something? There's a lot more overlap with Magic than I had realized, I guess.
 

marrec

Banned
Is every weenie, stompy, or RDW-stylized deck considered "scumbag" in Hearthstone or something? There's a lot more overlap with Magic than I had realized, I guess.

We need to convince Mark LePine to come to Hearthstone and make people REALLY mad.
 
Well there goes about a GB off my data plan.

Tried to update mobile app and it got an error about 3/4 through.

Decided to try again and got the same result.
 
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