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Hearthstone |OT3| Preparing for the Ball of Spiders Meta

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M

Mobius and pet octopus

Member
The meta seems to always return to hunters being played the most. And after all this time I've never learned to enjoy playing against hunter, especially as rogue. Specifically face hunter, since midrange hunter has been much better ever since buzzard was nerfed (and frankly not ever nearly as bad as face hunter has been in any form - even 2 mana uth).

This isn't even about winning or losing. As paladin I know I have a 65%ish winrate over 4 seasons against hunter. Even tonight I am 4-1 with rogue against hunter, using my cut of oil rogue that is supposedly countered hard by face hunter I am 4-1 with and not by some stroke of luck either (I've played rogue enough to know when I am winning because of luck, and I've played against hunter enough to beat scrubs).

And yet, the more hunter is prevalent in the game, the more I just want to play something else. The whole "it just isn't fun to play against" argument doesn't even begin to cover face hunters. Although midrange has been... at least somewhat fun to play against ever since the buzzard was nerfed. Face hunter, on the other hand, has just always been dreadful to play against.
 
T

toddhunter

Member
Mobius and pet octopus said:
The meta seems to always return to hunters being played the most. And after all this time I've never learned to enjoy playing against hunter, especially as rogue. Specifically face hunter, since midrange hunter has been much better ever since buzzard was nerfed (and frankly not ever nearly as bad as face hunter has been in any form - even 2 mana uth).

This isn't even about winning or losing. As paladin I know I have a 65%ish winrate over 4 seasons against hunter. Even tonight I am 4-1 with rogue against hunter, using my cut of oil rogue that is supposedly countered hard by face hunter I am 4-1 with and not by some stroke of luck either (I've played rogue enough to know when I am winning because of luck, and I've played against hunter enough to beat scrubs).

And yet, the more hunter is prevalent in the game, the more I just want to play something else. The whole "it just isn't fun to play against" argument doesn't even begin to cover face hunters. Although midrange has been... at least somewhat fun to play against ever since the buzzard was nerfed. Face hunter, on the other hand, has just always been dreadful to play against.
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Hunter meta >>>>> paladin meta.

It is just a boring class to play against. Dragons made it a bit better, since at least you know you would end up winning.

At least face hunter is fast to play and you can deconstruct the deck should you choose to do so with taunts, healing and kezans.
 
M

Mobius and pet octopus

Member
Sounds like a game breaking bug.
ggdire.gif


toddhunter said:
Hunter meta >>>>> paladin meta.

It is just a boring class to play against. Dragons made it a bit better, since at least you know you would end up winning.

At least face hunter is fast to play and you can deconstruct the deck should you choose to do so with taunts, healing and kezans.
Click to expand...

Since when can't paladin's be countered? Heard of rogue? Black Knight? Harrison Jones?
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Mobius and pet octopus said:
The meta seems to always return to hunters being played the most. And after all this time I've never learned to enjoy playing against hunter, especially as rogue. Specifically face hunter, since midrange hunter has been much better ever since buzzard was nerfed (and frankly not ever nearly as bad as face hunter has been in any form - even 2 mana uth).

This isn't even about winning or losing. As paladin I know I have a 65%ish winrate over 4 seasons against hunter. Even tonight I am 4-1 with rogue against hunter, using my cut of oil rogue that is supposedly countered hard by face hunter I am 4-1 with and not by some stroke of luck either (I've played rogue enough to know when I am winning because of luck, and I've played against hunter enough to beat scrubs).

And yet, the more hunter is prevalent in the game, the more I just want to play something else. The whole "it just isn't fun to play against" argument doesn't even begin to cover face hunters. Although midrange has been... at least somewhat fun to play against ever since the buzzard was nerfed. Face hunter, on the other hand, has just always been dreadful to play against.
Click to expand...
Meta always returns to Hunter because whenever a new deck is discovered that is heavy on combos, is interesting/unique or is slow to get started... the Hunter decks shut that shit down real quick forcing them to put cards in to counter them (like heals and taunts even though you don't want to be playing those cards).

For better or for worse.... Hunter decks are the great equalizer. Their existence makes it so that greedy control decks will not dominate.


For the record I totally love playing long control games. I love playing Handlock, Freeze Mage, Control Warrior and the various Fatigue decks. They really get your brain moving. However, after a long day of work and I need to grind out some easy wins I hit up casual mode and RTSD with Hunter, Combo Druid and Zoolock.
 
M

Mobius and pet octopus

Member
toddhunter said:
I never said they could not be countered.

You win? It is a long and boring match.
You lose? It is a long and boring match.
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You said that at least with hunters you can "deconstruct" their deck using cards to counter theirs. You can do the same with midrange or control paladin.

I don't see why playing a longer game is boring or why playing paladin in general is boring tbh. With longer games you have more decisions to make and more chances for both players to make mistakes, making more interesting games where choice during the game has more of an impact. That is the opposite of boring.
 
T

toddhunter

Member
Mobius and pet octopus said:
You said that at least with hunters you can "deconstruct" their deck using cards to counter theirs. You can do the same with midrange or control paladin.

I don't see why playing a longer game is boring or why playing paladin in general is boring tbh. With longer games you have more decisions to make and more chances for both players to make mistakes, making more interesting games where choice during the game has more of an impact. That is the opposite of boring.
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Each to their own, but beating a face hunter because you made a deck to do so is satisfying. If you don't win? Well at least the match is quick.

Doing the same against paladin after paladin would kill hearthstone.

I don't buy that control matches have harder choices either. The longer the game goes, the easier things get. Control decks are generally just hard in that you need to survive against faster decks. Once you have "control" it is autopilot time.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
He was talking about Control vs Control match up. It's a battle of knowing what's in the opponent's hands, playing around removals/baiting removals, gaining card value, gaining and maintaining board control, battle of card advantage and calculating probabilities. Every turn is important and you have more choices to make per turn simply because you have more cards in hand which translates to more possible play and the increased difficulty in figuring out the best/correct play.

Against a face rush deck those things don't come into play. The only thing that matters is how you can remove their threats while protecting your life. You don't play around their cards because there is no need... it's not like you are NOT going to use your taunt just because they might have an Owl in hand.
 
M

Mobius and pet octopus

Member
toddhunter said:
Each to their own, but beating a face hunter because you made a deck to do so is satisfying. If you don't win? Well at least the match is quick.

Doing the same against paladin after paladin would kill hearthstone.

I don't buy that control matches have harder choices either. The longer the game goes, the easier things get. Control decks are generally just hard in that you need to survive against faster decks. Once you have "control" it is autopilot time.
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Well I didn't say they have harder or easier choices, I said there is a difference in the amount of choices. A very large one.

And I really disagree with your stating that once control gets ahead they win on auto-pilot. In control matches, it is much harder to tell who is ahead most of the time and more importantly, how far ahead they are. Even against more aggressive decks, it isn't like you can play on auto-pilot once you get some semblance of board control. A good midrange/combo player knows ahead of time when they are going to lose control and they've prepared for a way to get back into the game even if it isn't directly in their hand.

To reiterate, I didn't say hunter has easier choices, but far far less choices during the course of a single game. Sometimes the games are so short and straightforward there is no real choice involved. You either make the obvious play or lose. And every once in a while, perhaps once or twice a game, you trade instead of hitting face. Measure those few real choices, hell - even add in the choices the opponent had to make, against a match that lasts even an additional 3 turns, it is no contest.
 
D

DyslexicAlucard

Member
I agree with Mobius and Dahbomb. Hunter is just not fun to play against. There's some strategy involved to countering them, but more or less it boils down to "can I draw the anti-Hunter cards in my deck before he kills me?" Playing a taunt, board clear or AHB doesn't really take much thought.
 
L

Lyng

Member
toddhunter said:
Each to their own, but beating a face hunter because you made a deck to do so is satisfying. If you don't win? Well at least the match is quick.

Doing the same against paladin after paladin would kill hearthstone.

I don't buy that control matches have harder choices either. The longer the game goes, the easier things get. Control decks are generally just hard in that you need to survive against faster decks. Once you have "control" it is autopilot time.
Click to expand...

Control decks require you to maintain boardcontrol and to use removal the right way.
It will allways require more skill to pilot a control deck then a straight to face rush deck.
Even more so in Hearthstone than in say something like magic where red actually does require you to remove the other players minions or find a way to tap them etc.
 
M

Mobius and pet octopus

Member
Wow, it has already been about a month since the last wing came out and I've barely even cracked into the BRM cards much. I think next month I'll be playing dragon paladin to show all the haters that the dragonborn is real.
troll.gif


I haven't quite finalized the list yet. But

tumblr_lypj20eVX41r3rk2zo1_400.gif
 
T

toddhunter

Member
Mobius and pet octopus said:
Well I didn't say they have harder or easier choices, I said there is a difference in the amount of choices. A very large one.

And I really disagree with your stating that once control gets ahead they win on auto-pilot. In control matches, it is much harder to tell who is ahead most of the time and more importantly, how far ahead they are. Even against more aggressive decks, it isn't like you can play on auto-pilot once you get some semblance of board control. A good midrange/combo player knows ahead of time when they are going to lose control and they've prepared for a way to get back into the game even if it isn't directly in their hand.

To reiterate, I didn't say hunter has easier choices, but far far less choices during the course of a single game. Sometimes the games are so short and straightforward there is no real choice involved. You either make the obvious play or lose. And every once in a while, perhaps once or twice a game, you trade instead of hitting face. Measure those few real choices, hell - even add in the choices the opponent had to make, against a match that lasts even an additional 3 turns, it is no contest.
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That is fair enough, but control paladin is not an additional 3 turns. It'll drag on forever in most cases if your deck isn't aggro.

The beauty is in the balance. Hunter is too fast and straight forward, i feel paladin is to slow and boring.

If I had to choose between one or the other to play the majority of my games against? I'd still pick hunter so at least you can move on quicker in the grind.

People might whinge about it, but they do keep playing.
 
C

CoolOff

Member
Is it weird that I hate playing Face Hunter but love playing Face Warrior? Let me just Upgrade my weapon so I can swing for another 6 damage.
 
Haunted

Haunted

Member
Joco said:
Goddamn. It's official, I suck at Arena. Drafted a Paladin deck that included an Aldor Peacekeeper, two Truesilver's, two Consecrations, Onyxia and goddamn Tirion Fordring. 5 wins was all I could manage.

I better stop for tonight, I'm feeling on tilt.
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You'll do it next time. Fresh start tomorrow!
 
V

ViviOggi

Member
call_kotaku said:
Was going 3-2 on a pretty awful Arena run, figured I'd run into some easy decks at 2 losses

Ran into a Paladin that had multiple shredders, Tirion, and Nefarion.
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That doesn't happen

My really damn solid Hunter draft just lost to a 4-2 Paladin kid. In their first 9 cards drawn they had: Pyro, 3 Argent Protectors, Truesilver
smile.gif
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L

Levi

Banned
Third gorram day in a row I've rerolled into the "Paladin or Priest" daily.

Paladin is a goddamn disaster right now and I'd rather chew glass than play Priest in constructed (although I really like Priest in arena).

I really want to spend a year on a daily, thanks for ruining Pally you assholes.
 
B

bjaelke

Member
Levi said:
Third gorram day in a row I've rerolled into the "Paladin or Priest" daily.

Paladin is a goddamn disaster right now and I'd rather chew glass than play Priest in constructed (although I really like Priest in arena).

I really want to spend a year on a daily, thanks for ruining Pally you assholes.
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Why wouldn't you play priest in constructed?
 
L

Levi

Banned
BigJonsson said:
If you have BRM just make a quick dragon pally deck, you should win pretty quick in casual
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LOL

Dragon paladin, win, same sentence?

I want my dust back I wasted on Tirion, Blizzard! YOu can't nerf a whole class and not give me a refund!

And I hate playing Priest. I tried multiple decks, none of them are fun in the least.
 
B

BigJonsson

Member
Levi said:
LOL

Dragon paladin, win, same sentence?

I want my dust back I wasted on Tirion, Blizzard! YOu can't nerf a whole class and not give me a refund!

And I hate playing Priest. I tried multiple decks, none of them are fun in the least.
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You don't think you could get 2-5 wins for a quest with a deck you make in 2 minutes?


I'm not a great player but I've managed to go from level 19 to 14 with a dragon paladin deck in the past few days
 
L

Levi

Banned
BigJonsson said:
You don't think you could get 2-5 wins for a quest with a deck you make in 2 minutes?


I'm not a great player but I've managed to go from level 19 to 14 with a dragon paladin deck in the past few days
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Well, I'm not that lucky. Paladin has the worst hero power in the game. all it does is give Warriors and Zoo free activators for their broken cards. Guess what pretty much the only classes I queue up in ranked or casual are? Warrior, Zoo, Freeze Mage, Face Hunter. Maybe the meta at rank 19 is different.
 
L

Levi

Banned
Holy shit, first time I'm offered Mage in Arena for a month.

Zero Fireballs. Zero Flamestrikes. Zero polymorph. Zero arcane intellect. Zero epics. Zero frostbolt. Zero legendaries. I better win on my three water elementals.

Meh, I think I'll just resign the deck, ain't no one got time for this garbage.

Edit: just lost at 0-1 to a Rogue that made the WORST plays I've seen. Like it's their first day playing or something.

Edit: At two losses, beat a warlock. Who disconnected.

Edit: Beat a Rogue who used eviscerate on my face instead of killing my water elemental, and lost the use of their dagger for the rest of the game because of it. THEY REDAGGERED OVER A DAGGER WITH DEADLY POISON APPLIED. I would have uninstalled the game had I lost that one.

Edit: Won once more vs a Warrior who coined War Axe, I destroyed it with ooze, and they couldn't deal with my two water elementals, won that game on turn 7 w/ ice lance. Then I lost vs a Mage with a real deck. 3-3, 3 wins more than I expected when I finished that draft. Wasn't really worth doing that dumb Pally daily to get the gold to get that draft.
 
T

Type2

Member
Levi said:
Holy shit, first time I'm offered Mage in Arena for a month.

Zero Fireballs. Zero Flamestrikes. Zero polymorph. Zero arcane intellect. Zero epics. Zero frostbolt. Zero legendaries. I better win on my three water elementals.

Meh, I think I'll just resign the deck, ain't no one got time for this garbage.

Edit: just lost at 0-1 to a Rogue that made the WORST plays I've seen. Like it's their first day playing or something.

Edit: At two losses, beat a warlock. Who disconnected.

Edit: Beat a Rogue who used eviscerate on my face instead of killing my water elemental, and lost the use of their dagger for the rest of the game because of it. THEY REDAGGERED OVER A DAGGER WITH DEADLY POISON APPLIED. I would have uninstalled the game had I lost that one.
Click to expand...
I haven't played much this month and have been getting a pack daily with no luck whatsoever. Thinking about trying arena again with Brm stuff.
 
C

clav

Member
Levi said:
LOL

Dragon paladin, win, same sentence?

I want my dust back I wasted on Tirion, Blizzard! YOu can't nerf a whole class and not give me a refund!

And I hate playing Priest. I tried multiple decks, none of them are fun in the least.
Click to expand...

Maybe add Lorewalker Cho in your decks for more variety.

Spells? Secrets? Everyone gets a copy.

I think the card is underrated in terms of solving the current meta who like playing control. Plenty of people hate seeing this card spawn from piloted shredder.
 
G

gutshot

Member
Dahbomb said:
You can honestly win faster with Dragon Priest.
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Yup. Had the "win 5 games as priest" quest and was dreading how long it was going to take, but I threw together a dragon priest deck and it went surprisingly fast. Completed the quest in 6 games. The only one I lost was against a lock who kept tapping into the exact cards he needed. It felt like a fairly powerful deck, although you never know how much of that is just playing in casual and/or a string of good luck.
 
S

Super Nothing

Member
Levi said:
Well, I'm not that lucky. Paladin has the worst hero power in the game. all it does is give Warriors and Zoo free activators for their broken cards. Guess what pretty much the only classes I queue up in ranked or casual are? Warrior, Zoo, Freeze Mage, Face Hunter. Maybe the meta at rank 19 is different.
Click to expand...

I made a taunt Paladin deck that was doing really well in casual (I went something like 9-3) only to take it on ladder where I went slightly less than 50% win rate at rank 10. It at least made doing Paladin dailies somewhat painless.
 
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