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Hearthstone |OT9| Our raid wiped in Icecrown Citadel
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
Professor Lich
Member
Ah, my mistake then. A skin is still pretty cool then.
Also makes sense because all of the hero cards have been alter versions of the default heroes.
Well Medivh was a hero skin too, so maybe we'll get a Arthas legendary too.
Karsticles
Member
Taunt and freeze anything he hits, and I'm in.
cartographer
Member
We need some Muradin for sure.
Karsticles
Member
Don't let him hit face!
If the card ends up being good I'll be happy, especially since it's going to be my second craft (after the warrior hero).
I mean, it won't be good unless some unreleased card somehow makes it better, but if it somehow is a playable card in a tier one deck, that is a GOOD thing. Why would I root against that?
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
This is the only way I could see this type of permanent freeze being doable in the game. Sorta like the one unit they have in eternal. That perm freeze shit in eternal was dumb though.
Karsticles
Member
So for one turn, most likely?
I think Mobius brought this up before, but that would grant the game's first real neutral weapon to every class. That would mark a huge shift in deck potential. Personally, I don't think blurring class distinctions is a good direction.
Hard removal sort of that takes up a space on their board and doesn't trigger death rattle seems doable in hearthstone.
So for one turn, most likely?
I think Mobius brought this up before, but that would grant the game's first real neutral weapon to every class. That would mark a huge shift in deck potential. Personally, I don't think blurring class distinctions is a good direction.
Must overrea this but isn't the Medivh staff the games first neutral weapon?
Karsticles
Member
That's why I said it's the first "real" neutral weapon. You don't use Medivh's staff for removal, usually - it's almost always a huge opportunity loss.
But Frostmourne would be a minion-killer just by the nature of the weapon. A 1/3 weapon isn't a big deal for a Mage to wield, but a 5/3 would be.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Priest already has enough tirions.
If skullking geist becomes popular, silence priest will be the first deck to die. That deck relies heavily on those cheap spells.
I also think token shaman might die because there are going to be many board clears
Karsticles
Member
Oh, I was wrong earlier.
With the reveal of the latest Mage and Priest cards, we now have their full expansion sets (AFAIK).
So it seems like we can safely talk about their potential, at least in context of the current meta.
Quick ratings from a Wild perspective:
MAGE CARDS:
Breath of Sindragosa - 2/5
Coldwraith - 2/5
Frost Clone - 3/5
Ice Walker - 1/5
Doomed Apprentice - 1/5
Ghastly Conjurer - 3/5
Simulacrum - 5/5
Glacial Mysteries - 1/5
Sindragosa - 4/5
Frost Lich Jaina - 4/5
PRIEST CARDS:
Shadow Ascendant - 1/5
Spirit Lash - 5/5
Acolyte of Agony - 3/5
Eternal Servitude - 5/5
Devour Mind - 3/5
Shadow Essence - 2/5
Embrace Darkness - 1/5
Obsidian Statue - 4/5
Archbishop Benedictus - 2/5
Shadowreaper Anduin - 5/5
My own rating scale:
1/5 - will not see play in anything noteworthy.
2/5 - might get play as a rare tech card or in a meme deck.
3/5 - will see a decent amount of play, but isn't a key card to own.
4/5 - a strong card that creates, enables, or strengthens archetypes.
5/5 - a card that has the potential to significantly shape the meta.
I'm just bored and want to talk about the set. :-(
With the reveal of the latest Mage and Priest cards, we now have their full expansion sets (AFAIK).
So it seems like we can safely talk about their potential, at least in context of the current meta.
Quick ratings from a Wild perspective:
MAGE CARDS:
Breath of Sindragosa - 2/5
Coldwraith - 2/5
Frost Clone - 3/5
Ice Walker - 1/5
Doomed Apprentice - 1/5
Ghastly Conjurer - 3/5
Simulacrum - 5/5
Glacial Mysteries - 1/5
Sindragosa - 4/5
Frost Lich Jaina - 4/5
PRIEST CARDS:
Shadow Ascendant - 1/5
Spirit Lash - 5/5
Acolyte of Agony - 3/5
Eternal Servitude - 5/5
Devour Mind - 3/5
Shadow Essence - 2/5
Embrace Darkness - 1/5
Obsidian Statue - 4/5
Archbishop Benedictus - 2/5
Shadowreaper Anduin - 5/5
My own rating scale:
1/5 - will not see play in anything noteworthy.
2/5 - might get play as a rare tech card or in a meme deck.
3/5 - will see a decent amount of play, but isn't a key card to own.
4/5 - a strong card that creates, enables, or strengthens archetypes.
5/5 - a card that has the potential to significantly shape the meta.
I'm just bored and want to talk about the set. :-(
It's funny you say this. Reynard a long time ago ran one wolf rider in his decks because he was convinced the game algorithm gave him more favourable opponents due to its inclusion. I doubt there is but you never know.
Decks that could die?
Token druid is already on its last legs. I don't think it will be favorable with even more aoes and new warrior weapon in the game. I think all in decks that only work by snowballing on board will no longer work. Shaman is different because they pack much more value and can last a bunch of clears and refill, druid not really. Paladin like shaman is far stronger at board control and refill. Those will be fine.
One idea is that if lifesteal minions become prevalent and mage card generation becomes a lot worse with new cards, burn strategy wouldn't work as well it does but it seems unlikely with the revealed cards so far that burn mage goes away.
The plant rogue miracle style we have now could fall off because it doesn't pack enough threats to deal with control decks, it's simply going to change and adapt to maybe a burn strategy instead rather than placing stuff on board and hoping for them to connect. I don't think that will work very well, it's too fair, it's already mediocre. They will die and then they have time to heal back up when you have no burst from hand like the current lists.
There are a bunch of different priest decks right now, I think a lot of them could simply fall off in favor of the new cards priest got.
Token druid is already on its last legs. I don't think it will be favorable with even more aoes and new warrior weapon in the game. I think all in decks that only work by snowballing on board will no longer work. Shaman is different because they pack much more value and can last a bunch of clears and refill, druid not really. Paladin like shaman is far stronger at board control and refill. Those will be fine.
One idea is that if lifesteal minions become prevalent and mage card generation becomes a lot worse with new cards, burn strategy wouldn't work as well it does but it seems unlikely with the revealed cards so far that burn mage goes away.
The plant rogue miracle style we have now could fall off because it doesn't pack enough threats to deal with control decks, it's simply going to change and adapt to maybe a burn strategy instead rather than placing stuff on board and hoping for them to connect. I don't think that will work very well, it's too fair, it's already mediocre. They will die and then they have time to heal back up when you have no burst from hand like the current lists.
There are a bunch of different priest decks right now, I think a lot of them could simply fall off in favor of the new cards priest got.
Karsticles
Member
Play Warrior for 2 weeks, see zero Freeze Mages in Wild.
Play Priest for a day, fight four Freeze Mages in a row.
Oh hell yes there is, though Blizzard will always deny it.
Token shaman also loses evolve if Geist becomes popular.
I don't think Blizzard specifically tries to counter your deck, but I do suspect the deck/class somehow affects the matchmaking algorithm.
I posted the stats a while back when I played 14 games in a row and had very similar class breakdown. I then switched class and instantly requeued, same time, same elo, major change in class breakdown.
Karsticles
Member
In Overwatch, Blizzard tries to force you into a 50% winrate no matter how good or bad you are at any rank. So let's say you are an incredible player that starts a new account, and you have a 100% winrate. When you join games, Blizzard will try to put you with people who will average your winrate out to 50%. So you will get paired with, mathematically, a group of people who average a 40% winrate. If one of your teammates has a 100% winrate, then your other 4 partners will have an average of a 25% winrate.
So the better you are, the worse your teammtes are, and this is in the name of "fairness". It's bullshit and infuriating - easily the worst thing about Overwatch. But if you are having a shitty day, you will eventually get paired up with those super-high winrates people, and as a result you will get carried into some wins. This makes you feel good and keeps you playing the game. The infuriating part of this consequence is that your individual rating isn't nearly as indicative of your skill level as you think it is, because people are either holding you up or down (I once got into a game that was 500 points above my skill level, and I still had the best stats on my team while I struggled to climb in my own bracket).
I feel very certain that Blizzard does something similar in Hearthstone. There is some kind of tracker that attempts to pair you up such that you have a ~50% winrate. If you have a series of bad games, even if you don't drop in rank due to the new protections, you will eventually fall into a series of opponents that are incredibly bad at Hearthstone, and you will wonder how they got to the rank you are. If you win a lot, then you will suddenly start facing people who play top tier decks and know how to play the game very well.
So no, the game doesn't try to pair you with a bad matchup. Rather, the game tries to "correct" your success or failure by giving you a "fair" 50% winrate experience. This is why even the most bullshit decks in the history of the game only his mid-50% winrates - the game forced their winrates down by having to more consistently pair them with their bad matchups. If your deck only has one bad matchup, you'll have to see it more often to bring your winrate down. That's why I try to play decks with a ~50% winrate across the board, because facing your counter over and over again can be grating.
This is just my anecdotal experience (in consensus with some pro players like Reynad, though he thinks the game calculates winrates through a cumulative individual card winrate%), and Blizzard of course claims everything is completely random. But believing Blizzard on this kind of stuff is always a mistake, historically speaking!
So the better you are, the worse your teammtes are, and this is in the name of "fairness". It's bullshit and infuriating - easily the worst thing about Overwatch. But if you are having a shitty day, you will eventually get paired up with those super-high winrates people, and as a result you will get carried into some wins. This makes you feel good and keeps you playing the game. The infuriating part of this consequence is that your individual rating isn't nearly as indicative of your skill level as you think it is, because people are either holding you up or down (I once got into a game that was 500 points above my skill level, and I still had the best stats on my team while I struggled to climb in my own bracket).
I feel very certain that Blizzard does something similar in Hearthstone. There is some kind of tracker that attempts to pair you up such that you have a ~50% winrate. If you have a series of bad games, even if you don't drop in rank due to the new protections, you will eventually fall into a series of opponents that are incredibly bad at Hearthstone, and you will wonder how they got to the rank you are. If you win a lot, then you will suddenly start facing people who play top tier decks and know how to play the game very well.
So no, the game doesn't try to pair you with a bad matchup. Rather, the game tries to "correct" your success or failure by giving you a "fair" 50% winrate experience. This is why even the most bullshit decks in the history of the game only his mid-50% winrates - the game forced their winrates down by having to more consistently pair them with their bad matchups. If your deck only has one bad matchup, you'll have to see it more often to bring your winrate down. That's why I try to play decks with a ~50% winrate across the board, because facing your counter over and over again can be grating.
This is just my anecdotal experience (in consensus with some pro players like Reynad, though he thinks the game calculates winrates through a cumulative individual card winrate%), and Blizzard of course claims everything is completely random. But believing Blizzard on this kind of stuff is always a mistake, historically speaking!
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Are you sure that's how it works? If it uses MMR, which is even shown far as I'm aware, it would be much simpler to try matching you by that. With every win or loss your ranking gets adjusted until you're winning around 50% of your matches.
The 50% thing is just any elo system ever though. If you lose a lot, you will get paired up with worse players because your elo has gone down. If you win a lot, you will be paired with better players because you deserve a higher skill bracket.
If you always have a high win rate after like 100 games, that isn't fair for the people playing against you. Why should they be punished by being matched against someone who is expected to beat them on average?
The thing is that this works over a long period of time but can be frustrating in the short term for people without a lot of spare time.
Also the Overwatch example isn't great because players can have good stats but still be a poor team player or have a poor attitude -- stats are an easy way to feel like one's teammates are to blame, and I know that from experience.
If you always have a high win rate after like 100 games, that isn't fair for the people playing against you. Why should they be punished by being matched against someone who is expected to beat them on average?
The thing is that this works over a long period of time but can be frustrating in the short term for people without a lot of spare time.
Also the Overwatch example isn't great because players can have good stats but still be a poor team player or have a poor attitude -- stats are an easy way to feel like one's teammates are to blame, and I know that from experience.
Getting high wins in arena is such empty victory after you had to endure the wall of mages with endless board clears as you gamble your life against how many Pyroblasts they have and/or can create.
I'm shocked Blizzard avoided creating another arena-terrorizing Mage card this expansion. Assumedly.
I'm shocked Blizzard avoided creating another arena-terrorizing Mage card this expansion. Assumedly.
It would be better if Arthas was the hero card paladin.
Also, when you play the card, it should reuse thier dialogue from WC3:
Uther :"I dearly hope there is a special place in hell waiting for you, Arthas"
Arthas :"We may never know, Uther. I intend to live forever."
Although, it could still work with the Arthas skin, just change the dialogue to:
"I will give anything and pay any price if only you can help my save my people!"
Also, when you play the card, it should reuse thier dialogue from WC3:
Uther :"I dearly hope there is a special place in hell waiting for you, Arthas"
Arthas :"We may never know, Uther. I intend to live forever."
Although, it could still work with the Arthas skin, just change the dialogue to:
"I will give anything and pay any price if only you can help my save my people!"
Which is 10x weird given that Uther is the Lich King and Arthas is Garrosh.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Ok.
I was doing pretty well for having to deal with 6 Tirions.
I didn't expect 6 more.
I don't think I'm going to play anymore Hearthstone today
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Ok.
I was doing pretty well for having to deal with 6 Tirions.
I didn't expect 6 more.
I don't think I'm going to play anymore Hearthstone today
Where is your DOOOOOOM or priest death knight card!
Ok.
I was doing pretty well for having to deal with 6 Tirions.
I didn't expect 6 more.
I don't think I'm going to play anymore Hearthstone today
Are you playing against this guy?
https://youtu.be/Shc5nxN1JdE
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
It wasn't him but he did have a similar deck. If I knew Nzoth was coming I would have taken the Dirty Rat I saw from Stone Hill Defender and prayed
I'd replace holy nova with spirit lash in my control deck.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
What are the upcoming cards that people are hyped/worried about?
I haven't really been keeping up very much. A glance at the list of cards doesn't have anything popping out to me but I haven't had the time to think about most of them in much depth. It does seem like a very fun Arena and wild set, i'm just not noticing anything to hype me for standard.
I haven't really been keeping up very much. A glance at the list of cards doesn't have anything popping out to me but I haven't had the time to think about most of them in much depth. It does seem like a very fun Arena and wild set, i'm just not noticing anything to hype me for standard.
I guess it depends on how the card works with Garrison Commander. Can you cast two bolts before needing to refresh with a spell?
Also just imagine the crazy shit you can do with Raza + Lyra. You can recast your two damage every time you cast a spell in your Lyra chain. That's a crazy amount of damage.
I am most concerned about Bonemare. It's almost Dr. Boom levels of value on a common neutral. That shit is going to break arena and you're probably going to see a fair bit of it in Constructed too.
I would add it to my deck in a heartbeat.
Lyra is definitely auto include in every shadow reaper deck.
And i definitely bet garrison commander let's you hero power twice before refresh.
If so, that would give Reno Priest some real burst in Wild. You could combo with Spawn of Shadows as a possible finisher, sort of like that Gadgetzan Chancey Priest, but with fewer cards.
Karsticles
Member
@Yaboosh and ZealousD:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9lUclCYeE4
1. Shadowreaper Anduin - insane card. Lightbomb plus potential OTK combos and such. But the battlecry is so good you could play this in every Priest deck and it would fit.
2. Skulking Geist - meta-defining. Kills Freeze Mage, Secret Paladin, Jade Druid, and hurts Control Warrior.
3. Simuacrum - so flexible. You can get a second Antonidas in your hand, a second Reno Jackson, a second N'Zoth, a second Pyros, a second Sorcerer's Apprentice for Exodia Mage. It opens up a huge number of options.
4. Defile - a 2-mana board clear that will almost certainly hit up to 2 or 3 damage against key decks you want to use it against like Pirate Warrior. I might sub out Demon Wrath for this in my Renolock (which I just hit 10 with in Wild somehow! - MVP Ragnaros in 2 matches).
5. Dead Man's Hand. The only thing that kept Fatigue Warrior from being a thing was Jade Druid. With Skulking Geist, Warrior decks have so many more control options in general. How many C'Thuns, N'Zoths, Brawls, Gorehowls, etc. can you stuff back into your deck? As many as you goddamn want! You can even put endless Un'Goro Packs into your hand from Elise.
Honorable mentions to Spreading Plague, Tomb Lurker, Eternal Servitude, Treachery, Frozen Clone, Howlfiend, Roll the Bones, Hadronox, and Valeera the Hollow for just being generally exciting cards. Some of these are cards that will change matchups, and others are going to open up entirely new archetypes (like Taunt Druid).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9lUclCYeE4
Then add in Radiant Elemental.
Here's my top 5 so far (from a Wild perspective):
1. Shadowreaper Anduin - insane card. Lightbomb plus potential OTK combos and such. But the battlecry is so good you could play this in every Priest deck and it would fit.
2. Skulking Geist - meta-defining. Kills Freeze Mage, Secret Paladin, Jade Druid, and hurts Control Warrior.
3. Simuacrum - so flexible. You can get a second Antonidas in your hand, a second Reno Jackson, a second N'Zoth, a second Pyros, a second Sorcerer's Apprentice for Exodia Mage. It opens up a huge number of options.
4. Defile - a 2-mana board clear that will almost certainly hit up to 2 or 3 damage against key decks you want to use it against like Pirate Warrior. I might sub out Demon Wrath for this in my Renolock (which I just hit 10 with in Wild somehow! - MVP Ragnaros in 2 matches).
5. Dead Man's Hand. The only thing that kept Fatigue Warrior from being a thing was Jade Druid. With Skulking Geist, Warrior decks have so many more control options in general. How many C'Thuns, N'Zoths, Brawls, Gorehowls, etc. can you stuff back into your deck? As many as you goddamn want! You can even put endless Un'Goro Packs into your hand from Elise.
Honorable mentions to Spreading Plague, Tomb Lurker, Eternal Servitude, Treachery, Frozen Clone, Howlfiend, Roll the Bones, Hadronox, and Valeera the Hollow for just being generally exciting cards. Some of these are cards that will change matchups, and others are going to open up entirely new archetypes (like Taunt Druid).
