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Hearthstone |OT9| Our raid wiped in Icecrown Citadel
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
What does power word shield do when you don't have a minion? nothing at all.... card is terrible.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
What does cold blood do when you don't have a minion on board? I don't think this is a good argument.
because having a minion and a weapon is even remotely similar, please...what you're even arguing here.
Because having a weapon in a class that can generate weapons at will, plus is stocked with a bunch of useful weapons that might see more play as a result of this card, is the same thing. please...
SonicXtreme
Member
drakkari enchanter + any wild deck that includes emperor and fire ragnaros....i can't believe that wasn't made a legendary tbh , having 2 of them will allow some nicely consistent abusive decks to emerge i think. lich king as well, man!
It may not be powerful enough yet but it could be nice for rogue in the future.
Now let's all hug and then go rate Snowflipper Penguin 5/5. I did my part.
Now let's all hug and then go rate Snowflipper Penguin 5/5. I did my part.
Yeah I definitely thought of Ragnaros and Lich King. I'm not sure if there are some other strong cases too.
Generate weapons at will, how? You want to return your 1/2 daggers to your hand? How is that different from hero power in druid and savagery? You have a useless card in your hand that takes space? Sure... if you think about it a little, doomerang is laughably poor. That's the thing, you don't want to run weapons in rogue to begin with as there is no good reason to and this card is not even close to justify running them.
SonicXtreme
Member
lich king ! Off the hook with that.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I would say the same to you. Doomerang decks are going to have weapons available to combo with. Cold blood is actually a pretty weak card when you're not sticking any minions. It's much easier to stick a weapon.
Play to opponent minion and cycle it? not even bad play in many state.
you have like 12-15 minions in your deck, you might be able to run 4 weapons and if you draw this along with them and can play them at the same time, that's a big if. That's the difference. Also good luck holding your weapon without risking weapon removal in a weapon hate meta.
Yes, I understand shadowblade and doomrang are good together, but so are willdpyro and plague scientist, you should run those too!
I'd argue wildpyro by itself is far more usable in rogue than doomrang.
Yes, I understand shadowblade and doomrang are good together, but so are willdpyro and plague scientist, you should run those too!
I'd argue wildpyro by itself is far more usable in rogue than doomrang.
So you don't want to return a weapon that makes immune for a turn to your hand for one mana while simultaneously doing three damage and even turning cards over for gadgetzan auctioneer? or you don't want to continue to get value from an assassins blade that has had lifesteal for three turns? or even poison added to it? There has never been a one mana deal three damage card that hasn't had a big downside, this is a card that will reliably deal 2-3 damage for one mana with an upside. If you think there is no good reason to run this card, or the weapons that accompany it, we will have to agree to disagree.
see above post. What else you can do with doomrang? Explain that. Those combos are just for ideal draws, that's not how good decks work, that's not how this game works. If you're holding onto a card because you simply can't play period, it means it's bad. Yes, I understand those dream scenarios but about when it doesn't happen? And it will happen a lot, weapons are 2-4 in your deck of 30 cards and you have two of these. Are you just going to wait and not hit with your weapon until you draw this? No. You have this card and no weapon, you do you want to use it with your daggers? Hell, no. How good is having the weapon back in your hand? Do you have time to play and hit with it at all? Dubious at best. Shadowblade is decent, you can play it but you don't need doomrang at all.
It doesn't even scale with spelldamage btw. A card like blade flurry was great because even if you didn't have poison on, it was still useful. This is not.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Wild pyro and plague scientist are not good. That is at least a 3 card combo too. This has gotten a bit silly now.
RE: spell damage, not really important as spell damage is barely if at all ran atm, and weapon rogue decks are certainly not clamoring to include spell damage. Different type of rogue deck imo.
SonicXtreme
Member
3/2 weapon for 3 mana see play in every class that have one even if can't take advantage of the effect like secrets in hunter or rallying blade divine shields, the battlecry is just icing on the cake here since it always works, but it wouldn't matter regardless.
Well, for a starter, it is a one mana card which allows you to start triggering EVERY SINGLE COMBO EFFECT THAT ROGUE HAS. This doesn't even take into account the fringe synergies like letting priests steal a dead card, using a cheap card to trigger a ton of different secrets, bouncing a weapon to avoid weapon removal, potentially going over the top of a taunt to kill a valuable minion, pre-emptively allowing low impact board clearing to avoid buffing against classes like druid, hunter and paladin (particularly where they have divine shields) and a whole lot more I don't care to touch on.
There is no doubt in my mind that this card will not break the meta, nor will it single-handedly revive rogue. But to call the card bad is nothing but folly, pure and simple. Every HS pro has (rightly) pointed out the strength of one mana cards, and this one is strong as all get out due to its unique effect. Perhaps more importantly, even if this card doesn't find its way into current decks, all it takes is one really solid weapon (which one might argue rogue is lacking) and it will all the sudden be an undeniable problem.
I'll leave it at that.
Can also just play Skelemancer into Doomsayer.
I think he could definitely make the cut in Pally due to spikeridge but I'm not sure about other classes.
I can pretty much guarantee my ratings are going to be the worst, but I'll give it a shot.
Raptor saw some play before Rogue sank to the depths (with any other archetype beyond miracoli) :b
Doomsayer doesn't activate it.
I'm sure this will too and it will end up at the same place as Raptor rogue in a month.
Ok, look at this. What about me keeping my weapon equipped and play shadowstrike instead of this card? It cost more mana, well I still have a weapon instead of it being in my hand and paying another 3 mana to equip it again. In the end I save 1 mana, deal more damage, have more stats on board and guess what, shadow strike can be played anytime, it's not conditional. You still don't see how bad this is? There are plenty better 1 cost cards to activate combos with, that's no good excuse. Rogue has no issues with early board control and this card doesn't add anything worth a card in your deck.
Strength of 1 cost cards? Sure, savagery was also a good pick on some spots from raven idol, you just didn't put it in your deck and that's the definition of a 2/5 card if you read the intro.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Why would Skelemancer be an amazing card when Twilight Summoner is bad?
SonicXtreme
Member
i don't see the love for howling commander. it's basically novice engineer for 1 more mana and +1/1. sure it draws divine shield but why would you care, you need consecretion , weapons, equality, plenty of spells just as bad as minions. you're already playing stonehill defender which is immensely better and helps vs aggro. this just get run over. it tutor minions earlier in game but you don't really need that you want to be drawing into 4 mana spells, spikeridge steed etc need to survive to drop those. pure arena card imo compare to archanologist
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Of the "On Opponents Turn" deathrattle cards, the 3 mana 3/1 is the only one that's slightly interesting as an maybe aggro card, but that probably doesn't make the cut.
Seems like Arena cards to me, where they do seem useful and fun. They are commons.
Seems like Arena cards to me, where they do seem useful and fun. They are commons.
Most likely. We don't have enough good weapons for this to work.
The warrior one has potential.
twilight summoner is not a bad card, it has its uses but it's not exactly sticky.
An 8/8 is very scary and very expensive to deal with unlike a 5/5 and that helps this guy stick, the main reason you play it is to protect your board and guarantee a target for your future buffs, not to summon an 8/8 on 5, you don't play this in face decks trying to race, that's not its point. Summoner doesn't do any of this well. I think the card only works in paladin right now.
SonicXtreme
Member
it's a really nice nzoth minion in wild imo, if they board clear you still have a strong presence, i played a lot of nzoth jade rogue for fun and the strongest games were when i could survive after nzoth turn, they can take out the board sometimes but killing large extra minions most of the time is not feasable and seal the deal. a one off in slightly aggressive nzoth deck, even such as that raptor/nzoth rogue perhaps. or other agressive deathrattle deck like hunter with the deathrattle discount guy.
SonicXtreme
Member
skulking geist is trash, it only counter jade druid, its too late to play vs inner fire priest and other decks it doesn't straight up destroy, it's eater of secrets level tech overhyped and will be over used for just a week or two. even in wild secret paladin is barely existent and pally has a million decks and most only run the murloc for secrets anyway now
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Maybe? Against aggro I'm worried they'll just ignore it and go face, and I'm not sure how great of a trade you'll end up with. Against control or midrange, I'm not sure how different it is from just playing a normal 4/3. Could see it either way.
It's a weird card like a lot of these cards in the expansion.
Murloc pally can play that
But I think the 5 drop dragon is just better
You just cant risk that 2/2 is your play when you not curve well
You can trade to pirate warrior 3 drop if they ignore is which is their most valuable mana spot.
BananasWithGuns
Member
It's kind of insane how many really, REALLY good hand buff targets are in this set. I would not be surprised to see the Paladin version take off and hell, maybe even see Warrior take a stab at it.
yeah if you fall completely behind on board, the card is bad but at that point you're probably losing anyway. There is a risk but I think the payoff is worthwhile and if people start running cards to deal with it, that means that it has had its impact and if it eats premium removal, your Tirion probably won't. I'm going to try it for sure first thing when set releases. On paper, I think it's top tier strategy but nothing ever goes according to plan right. We'll see but I feel good about my 4 rating in any case.
What if your weapon is zero mana?
It takes quite a lot to make that weapon cost zero, at that point it won't matter anyway. You don't care about getting it back. Weapons in rogue if played are about smashing face, it's always been like that and look how many turns that takes. It's too long for an aggro deck and an aggro deck won't play doomrang... Shard is good weapon, you want to play it, just play it, you won't need doomrang. Play poison instead if anything.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Keeps mentioning savagery, an irrelevant card. I don't like when people do this. This is obviously way higher impact than savagery and in a totally different class to begin with! Hell, savagery is better in rogue than druid because of weapons too (and combo enablers)!
This is a classic pitfall. The poor comparison. Savagery gets bonus points for not being in the same class. We see this every expansion.
This is a classic pitfall. The poor comparison. Savagery gets bonus points for not being in the same class. We see this every expansion.
You still can't justify why this card is good and worth inclusion over any other rogue card while I explained thoroughly why it's horrible. I think that's more telling :b
No, it's about same as savagery. 2/5 card that doesn't do anything in 95 percent of spots, it's exactly that. I'm honestly amazed that I have to use this many words to explain the obvious.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
What cards did you have in mind? I always preferred Paladin for handbuffing since it just scatters on everything in their hand
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
The more I look at it, the more afraid and confused I get of Bonemare. Why does it have so many well spread stats on it and Taunt on exactly one of them to boot? Why was this considered ok? I guess they must have stats to show no one ever goes into turn 7 with minions on board anyway?
I'm not sure how widespread or OP that is going to be, but I'm positive it's going to a pain in certain decks. First thing I might do is make a midrangy egg druid type deck with that thing as the finisher. Or just any boring midrange Paladin or Shaman deck.
I'm not sure how widespread or OP that is going to be, but I'm positive it's going to a pain in certain decks. First thing I might do is make a midrangy egg druid type deck with that thing as the finisher. Or just any boring midrange Paladin or Shaman deck.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
If you think I haven't explained why this card is good, then you have ignored my posts. Bouncing your weapon back to your hand, while still getting value out of the last hit, is very solid.
The downside to minion bouncing is you don't get the minion back. You also have a lot less control over the minion since far far far more cards interact with minions. This lets you get immediate impact off the act of bouncing and you get your weapon back. It's not even losing card advantage like savagery does. This generates hand value as it exchanges the 1 mana card for a weapon.
Yeah, there are a couple good handbuff cards. Probably evolve too.
But that's the problem, you assume you have the weapons and can play this with. You're assuming the best scenario also ignoring the fact that when you're playing that many weapons, some of which are mediocre at best, you make your gadgetzan much worse somehow thinking this spell helps your gadget turn. I think a weapon oriented deck can't support gadget very well to begin with, you gotta do something else. So those parts are largely irrelevant. As soon as your scenarios are not met, suddenly every other card you could have run instead is better than doomrang. You could run more damage instead, you could run some good minion instead, do you even care about bouncing the weapon back and paying full cost to add durability to your weapon basically? This is no Upgrade. I'd rather just play Greenskin and smash the face in a weapon rogue while I have many better tools to control the board elsewhere.
It wouldn't be bad if those cases were rare but as I mentioned, you only have 4 weapons at most. It's very clear this card has very little utility and even when it works it's not exactly powerful. My Raptor example maybe was bad, because Raptor was actually powerful when it worked.
edit: This doesn't create card advantage btw, you're using a card just to give your weapon durability by paying its full mana cost+1. It's like a really awful upgrade when you do that. How is that not awful or worth building a deck around? It's not like rogue weapons do anything special with those battlecry effects either, all of that for like dealing 3 damage to a minion? I don't think so. It's far too slow and expensive. It is only going to make sense to do it with shard and that's a slow/inconsistent card itself.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Here's a list that I'd say ranges from worth consideration to downright ridiculous.
Righteous Protector
Howling Commander
Arrogant Crusader
Chillblade Champion
Bolvar, Fireblood
Shallow Gravedigger
Corpsetaker
Saronite Chain Gang
Bonemare
Obviously not all of those would make it in but they all scale pretty well with hand buffs. Righteous Protector and Saronite Chain Gang especially are completely ridiculous with buffs and are downright auto includes.
If Handbuff pally doesn't make a dent now it never will. Think you will run emerald reaver as well to guarantee a life steal proc which ideally allows a turn 4 (with just 1 handbuff) that consists of Chillblade (4/3) 2x Ghoul (4/4 x2). And then refill your hand turn 5 with DF.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Yeah I'm not buying handbuff being good.
You're an aggressive deck that's foregoing tempo at the start of the game giving the opponent ample time to find answers or snowball the game. Because of the loss in cards you have to make up somehow and can run less answers than you'd need as well.
It really is a terrible mechanic.
You're an aggressive deck that's foregoing tempo at the start of the game giving the opponent ample time to find answers or snowball the game. Because of the loss in cards you have to make up somehow and can run less answers than you'd need as well.
It really is a terrible mechanic.
I think they can also come from Stonehill Defenders, so there's that as well.
