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Hearthstone |OT9| Our raid wiped in Icecrown Citadel

F

Familienoberhauptvogel

Banned
cartographer said:
That introduces issues with basic card imbalances, which they would understandably be reticent to introduce.

And doesn't really address the current. We know it's possible to have a balanced meta with innervate (and even Jade Idol). The power level of UI and Spreading Plague and how those cards interact with deck building and other class cards (like Nourish) is a massive part of the issue.

Simply HoFing innervate and seeing how it shakes out seems less preferable to addressing the issue more fully when we know there's more to it.
Click to expand...
that's why it's a quick and dirty fix. They have removed cards entirely before to replace them with other cards. They could later introduce a new basic card for Druid to make up for the imbalance. I've said for a longer time that innervate had to go, even compared to other basic cards it's far above any in power level.

I want Blizzard to make powerful cards, maybe not as powerful as UI, and Druid needed ways to deal with go wide strategies. UI will get way worse once Jade Blossom rotates, losing innervate would mean they both have a harder time emptying their hand and are much slower to accelerate to 10 giving opponents more time to kill them before they get a chance to play it.

Tangentially I don't want them to print cards like Jade Idol that undo game ending mechanics entirely which they've added 2 more of in this recent set.
kirblar said:
I'd argue putting Dark Ritual into a class's core kit indicates the professional game designers at Team 5 didn't know what they were doing either.
Click to expand...
Almost strictly better Dark Ritual
 
P

Pooya

Member
cartographer said:
Just addressing innervate doesn't look at the whole issue. Whatever they eventually do with innervate, UI and probably spreading plague have to be addressed, too. UI in particular effectively erases ramp downside, which is just crazy.

And Flappy Bird sucks but it should never have been printed. Snowbally early game minions are a bane and usually problematic. The bright side is at least it's a 3 drop. Two years ago it would be a 1-mana 1/3.
Click to expand...

I'm sure they will change UI seeing how hated that card is by streamers and community in general and you can see the poor reactions to it every time it's played on livestreams. That's bad news for them.

But between innervate and plague, I'd rather they nerf innervate. It's a card that also helps druid against aggro while enabling a lot of other things and if they nerf it druid becomes too weak to aggro.

That's why they should not touch plague, it enables a new taunt deck. If UI is worse and there is no innervate, people would play taunt synergy cards along with it instead of just putting the card in because ramp into UI is too good to play anything else.
 
W

wiibomb

Member
Yaboosh said:
Kabal trafficker needs to be a demon itself. It already sucks enough because half the demons are god awful.
Click to expand...

I have been running the 5 mana spell that damages for 2 and summons a demon. There are only 2 instances it fails, the rest are really good, that helps to counter their god awful battlecries and it also helps a lot the Dk card.

Also, summoning 2/2, 4/4 and 8/8 demons from the kazakus potions work nicely.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Familienoberhauptvogel said:
I've only ever heard horror stories about this time in magic
Click to expand...
Elixir was secretly the actual problem card of the two. It was when the decks no longer actually had to bother with a win condition that things turned ugly. Revelation on its own was fine in a vacuum.

Here, I don't think things are nearly as simple. Jade Idol, UI and Innervate are all problems.

Innervate- change to "replenish" to get rid of T1 Fledgling.
Jade Idol - change it so it can't go infinite (puts 3 Jade Idol summons that can't get you rebuys)
UI - no idea what to do.
 
D

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
Innervate is really the only card to target if you want to hit Aggro and Jade at the same time. Even something like Swipe does not always show up in Aggro-centric decks. I still see lots of people trying to stick their neck out to defend Blizzard, but really there is just no excuse for the game finding itself in such a state. It's one thing for the game to be difficult to predict when a season turns over and cards rotate out, and it's another when you are just doing an iterative card set. It is difficult to imagine what card sets they thought would be competitive with improved Druid deck through their internal testing.
 
T

TankUP

Member
kirblar said:
I'd argue putting Dark Ritual into a class's core kit indicates the professional game designers at Team 5 didn't know what they were doing either.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Hearthstone is a huge failure that almost bankrupted Blizzard. Oh, wait...

Obviously they've fucked up before, they've fucked up now, and they will fuck up again. But this idea that the community has that they could do it better? Spending 20 minutes on the subreddit for fan-created Hearthstone cards or reading the never-ending suggestions for which cards should be nerfed should disabuse you of that notion.

Heck, even when they do the right thing and nerf cards like Caverns Below or Yogg-Soron the result is years of whining and begging that those cards get reverted.

I'm glad Team Five makes this game while mostly ignoring the suggestions of the community.

I understand that some of the fundamental design decisions they've made has made it very difficult for them to balance this game the way we'd like. (9 classes, the mana system, how hero powers work, a basic/classic set that doesn't rotate, pivoting to a mobile game focus, etc.)

I also don't think this meta is as bad as people say. I think Karazhan was worse. That was a two deck meta. This is a four deck meta. We got spoiled with Un'goro and looking back it seems inevitable that the follow-up couldn't match that kind of class balance.

I also think this meta will really open up with just a few changes to cards. It sucks that we have to wait for those. In the meantime I'll hit up wild whenever I get too bored of the standard meta, work on my last three golden classes, and save up gold for the next expansion. It's not the end of the world.
 
K

kirblar

Member
TankUP said:
Yeah, Hearthstone is a huge failure that almost bankrupted Blizzard. Oh, wait...

Obviously they've fucked up before, they've fucked up now, and they will fuck up again. But this idea that the community has that they could do it better? Spending 20 minutes on the subreddit for fan-created Hearthstone cards or reading the never-ending suggestions for which cards should be nerfed should disabuse you of that notion.

Heck, even when they do the right thing and nerf cards like Caverns Below or Yogg-Soron the result is years of whining and begging that those cards get reverted.

I'm glad Team Five makes this game while mostly ignoring the suggestions of the community.

I understand that some of the fundamental design decisions they've made has made it very difficult for them to balance this game the way we'd like. (9 classes, the mana system, how hero powers work, a basic/classic set that doesn't rotate, pivoting to a mobile game focus, etc.)

I also don't think this meta is as bad as people say. I think Karazhan was worse. That was a two deck meta. This is a four deck meta. We got spoiled with Un'goro and looking back it seems inevitable that the follow-up couldn't match that kind of class balance.

I also think this meta will really open up with just a few changes to cards. It sucks that we have to wait for those. In the meantime I'll hit up wild whenever I get too bored of the standard meta, work on my last three golden classes, and save up gold for the next expansion. It's not the end of the world.
Click to expand...
They clearly aren't investing in enough people on the balance side, and it's biting them in the ass, just like it just bit MTG in the ass over the past 2 years.
 
P

Pooya

Member
yeah, final design team is like 4 or 5 people. That's just not enough. Same people seemingly are responsible for arena balance too, that's a lot work and testing for 5 people.
 
F

Familienoberhauptvogel

Banned
TankUP said:
Yeah, Hearthstone is a huge failure that almost bankrupted Blizzard. Oh, wait...

Obviously they've fucked up before, they've fucked up now, and they will fuck up again. But this idea that the community has that they could do it better? Spending 20 minutes on the subreddit for fan-created Hearthstone cards or reading the never-ending suggestions for which cards should be nerfed should disabuse you of that notion.

Heck, even when they do the right thing and nerf cards like Caverns Below or Yogg-Soron the result is years of whining and begging that those cards get reverted.

I'm glad Team Five makes this game while mostly ignoring the suggestions of the community.

I understand that some of the fundamental design decisions they've made has made it very difficult for them to balance this game the way we'd like. (9 classes, the mana system, how hero powers work, a basic/classic set that doesn't rotate, pivoting to a mobile game focus, etc.)

I also don't think this meta is as bad as people say. I think Karazhan was worse. That was a two deck meta. This is a four deck meta. We got spoiled with Un'goro and looking back it seems inevitable that the follow-up couldn't match that kind of class balance.

I also think this meta will really open up with just a few changes to cards. It sucks that we have to wait for those. In the meantime I'll hit up wild whenever I get too bored of the standard meta, work on my last three golden classes, and save up gold for the next expansion. It's not the end of the world.
Click to expand...

you are absolutely right that a developer shouldn't look to the community for every issue. They should take suggestion as they see fit but they have to listen and communicate.

Karazhan wasn't a 2 deck meta at all.
 
F

Familienoberhauptvogel

Banned
kirblar said:
Yeah, it was always designed as a game you could easily play on the toilet. It's why the game blew up so huge.
Click to expand...

it blew up well in advance of a mobile release, it certainly led to a 2nd wave of rapid growth though.
I'd more accredit the rapid growth to streaming and ease of use. CCGs are popular and Hearthstone was by far the easiest to pick up and play.
 
P

Professor Lich

Member
I know things are bit of a bunner meta wise but I'm still pretty excited to see what the next expansion is going to be after seeing Knight's cards. Hopefully it'll balance out the game more or at least have some more crazy things going on. Going to be a long wait though.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Familienoberhauptvogel said:
it blew up well in advance of a mobile release, it certainly led to a 2nd wave of rapid growth though.
I'd more accredit the rapid growth to streaming and ease of use. CCGs are popular and Hearthstone was by far the easiest to pick up and play.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the lack of a good online TCG/CCG/etc because of MODO being a dumpster fire created a massive market opportunity.

It definitely got big early in beta, but it was the mobile stuff that made it insane w/ casual players.
 
W

wiibomb

Member
Mobile is the only reason why I don't play other CCG, if they don't have a portable way to play a card game, I'm not going to play it.

Mobile is the way I found Hearthstone and on mobile I got legend. For me the portability of a game like this is a huge deal.
 
T

traveler

Not Wario
Yeah, the UI/Jade Idol/ramp card interactions seem pretty problematic. Previously, ramp at least cost you a lot of gas and draw 5s were legitimately dangerous in the late game due to HS' library size. UI and Jade Idol fix those problems while also generating threats themselves.

The Prince Keleseth Elemental Rogue deck I've been playing is a ton of fun and has game against pretty much the whole field. I hadn't played HS in forever, and did a marathon session Thursday and Friday where I cleared Kara, the Frozen Throne, beat the Lich King with every class, and ranked from 25 to 7 using that rogue deck. I'd say it's even favored against Jade Druid, but token druid is a nightmare.

Here's the list if anyone is curious: http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/913362-legend-kelemental-rogue-w-guide

Despite being the hottest deck on their front page, I've only played the mirror once in over 100 games. Druid is really everywhere.

It's definitely a deck where you need to think out your lines a bit in order to play. The elemental and combo interactions mean you need to be super conscious of when you drop your cheap stuff.
 
T

TankUP

Member
kirblar said:
Yeah, it was always designed as a game you could easily play on the toilet. It's why the game blew up so huge.
Click to expand...

The game was out for years before it was even available on phones. Maybe it was designed with mobile in mind originally, I don't know.

Anyway, mobile definitely holds the game back. Fear of alienating that audience.
 
K

kirblar

Member
TankUP said:
The game was out for years before it was even available on phones. Maybe it was designed with mobile in mind originally, I don't know.

Anyway, mobile definitely holds the game back. Fear of alienating that audience.
Click to expand...
The game was designed specifically with it in mind from day 1. It's why your on-board actions are limited to attacking with minions/face only instead of having activated abilities like other TCGs.
 
D

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
f0lken said:
I wonder how pre nerf Quest Rogue would have fared against druid
Click to expand...
Poorly? What are they supposed to do vs. Aggro Druid? If Quest Rogue was still being played you'd probably see zero Priest though.
 
F

FeD.nL

Member
slightconfuse said:
Big priest is really frustrating to play against.

They do nothing for 5 turns but play removal and then drop bombs.
Click to expand...

I think this is gonna be a deck that's probably gonna get a harder time when the druid nerfs come. With more room for Shamans/Mages and thus devolve/hex/polymorph you can nullify a big part of their arsenal of threats.
 
L

Lone_Prodigy

Member
Made a control Mage with DK Jaina.

Playing against Druid, I brace for Aggro/Jade but after dropping some taunts he plays C'thun minions. Finally after a UI he drops a 20/20 C'thun that almost clears my board, then Innervates double Earthen Scales to give himself 40+ armour. I Polymorph it right away.

I already have DK Jaina out so I slowly whittle away at his Spreading Plague and Ancient of Wars by freezing and pinging. Eventually we both go into fatigue and he concedes as I have board control.

Next game versus Priest, he steals DK Jaina while it's in the last 4 cards of my deck. Wonderful.
 
H

Hycran

Banned
I'm going to talk into the void about three things. Here we go.

1: Alternative Heroes - It is shocking to me that a company as capable of monitizing digital nothing has failed to capatalize on adding at least one or two additional heroes for each class. What is even more galling is the fact that some classes have multiple heroes that are available while others are stuck with 0.

2:Shaman currently (read: standard) has 16 cards that have overload. This means you could make an entire deck with overload cards. Unfortunately, they only have 3 cards that can actually utilize the overload mechanic: Eternal Sentinel, Unbound Elemental and Snowfury Giant. This is SADBAD and there is no reason not to publish more cards that at least interact with it.

3: I like meme rogue a lot, but they should bring burgle back into standard.
 
M

Mobius and pet octopus

Member
Sometimes "drawbacks" can be made into positives. That is a big part of card games. Example - Silence you board = weak, until you're building a deck that makes silencing your board a positive.
 
P

Pooya

Member
The giant is just unplayable right now, it's printed for future. I'm not sure if I want to see more overload synergy though, last time it went poorly...

If you could build a good aggressive shaman deck with 477, it could beat up jade druids really well. I have no idea how to build it, surprised people aren't even testing though. Evolve shaman is not very good.
 
Yoshichan

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
So did anyone else get fucked in the asshole like me?

So far, just from opening packs (F2P), I've gotten all three Prince cards and Bloodreaver Gul'dan.

Then again, my asshole is literally used to being rammed by Blizzard so at this point it's actually starting to feel less of a pain and more of an enjoyment.
 
M

Mobius and pet octopus

Member
Yoshichan said:
So did anyone else get fucked in the asshole like me?

So far, just from opening packs (F2P), I've gotten all three Prince cards and Bloodreaver Gul'dan.

Then again, my asshole is literally used to being rammed by Blizzard so at this point it's actually starting to feel less of a pain and more of an enjoyment.
Click to expand...

I think all three of the princes are good. The 3 cost one maybe not now. But the 4 cost has found it's place in some decks, including miracle rogue. And the 2 cost one has found it's way into multiple classes (warlock, rogue, paladin, prob more). Gul'dan deathknight is very strong card, not even sure why you're complaining about that pull at all.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Mobius and pet octopus said:
I think all three of the princes are good. The 3 cost one maybe not now. But the 4 cost has found it's place in some decks, including miracle rogue. And the 2 cost one has found it's way into multiple classes (warlock, rogue, paladin, prob more). Gul'dan deathknight is very strong card, not even sure why you're complaining about that pull at all.
Click to expand...

The 3-cost one is good in OTK decks in Wild, at least. Land Thaurissan on that and Malygos, and BOOM!
 
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