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[Zoggy]

Why do you act like fandral ever gets to live more than one turn?

That shit never happens. And if it does that 1% of the time, yes it's really powerful.

But players know accordingly and take him out.

Dropping fandral on t4 naked gets him taken out the next turn.

People never played brann on t3 he was played in combo just like staghelm. Usually it's just fandral + wrath or 1 other card. Late in the game.

You're taken the best case scenario of t4 fandral t5 nourish (which almost never gets pulled off) and saying that's why he needs to be changed. Like dude

It's like saying magma rager is a problem because it's a 3 drop that can 30 damage by turn 7.

 

[Zoggy]

It's not just a 3/5 for 4 mana, it's a 3/5 must remove or it continues to get value. It's never been just a 3/5.

I think it's ok that legendary can be classified as "must remove or it will continue to get value"

That's not OP.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

I think it's ok that legendary can be classified as "must remove or it will continue to get value"

That's not OP.

I never said that is the issue. Nice strawman.

 

[Ladekabel]

fine fewer

### Standard Token Shaman
# Class: Shaman
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Mammoth
#
# 2x (1) Bloodsail Corsair
# 2x (1) Evolve
# 2x (1) Fire Fly
# 1x (1) Patches the Pirate
# 2x (2) Devolve
# 2x (2) Flametongue Totem
# 2x (2) Jade Claws
# 2x (2) Maelstrom Portal
# 2x (2) Primalfin Totem
# 2x (3) Mana Tide Totem
# 2x (4) Jade Lightning
# 1x (4) Saronite Chain Gang
# 2x (5) Bloodlust
# 2x (5) Doppelgangster
# 1x (5) Thrall, Deathseer
# 1x (6) Aya Blackpaw
# 2x (6) Thing from Below
#
AAECAaoIBJG8ApS9ApvLAuvPAg3lB/qqAuvCAva9AvAH0bwCoLYCkcECgQSHvAKTCfm/AvuqAgA=
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone
# https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/deck-library/shaman-decks/token-shaman/standard-token-shaman/

I did it w/o thrall and doomsayers in place of thing from below.

Thanks. Any tips on what to mulligan for and game plan? It always feels like I roll the wrong totem and draw the wrong cards all the time.

Edit.: Nvm. Finally did it.

 

[Karsticles]

It's not just a 3/5 for 4 mana, it's a 3/5 must remove or it continues to get value. It's never been just a 3/5. 6 mana 3/5 + a 1/5 posionous taunt is amazing. I don't know how you can call that just okay. The 1/5 poisonous taunt means a tempo deck has to eat through 10 health to deal with that! Or you have 5 damage removal lined up, which most classes don't. And when you can't deal with that 3/5 behind a 1/5 poisonous taunt, you're giving another turn of double combos to hit the board.

Some cards are like that:
Brann
Fandral
Baron
Spiritsinger Umbra
Thaurissan (the strongest on this list)
Lyra

They just give incredible value if left alone for more than a turn. Do you think all of them need to be nerfed? Part of these cards means that you always prep for them to drop. If you don't have an answer, you're going to struggle. There's definitely something largely unfair about that, but Fandral isn't anything unique in this realm.

Most classes can deal with a 1/5 without hitting it with a bunch of minions. lol Again, is it good? Sure. Is it broken and worth addressing? I don't see how you can think that.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Again, the issue is not that. I never said that. I am saying that you're misreprsenting it's strength when you say it's only a 3/5.

There is a big difference between a 3/5 vanilla and fandral, even when you're not getting synergy out of it the turn it's played. HUUUGE difference.

Right after Fandral was released it was very much hated by parts of the community. Raven idol rotating seems to have quieted the anti-Fandral sentiment (along with Jade Idol and then Ultimate Infestation taking its place as a focus for people's anger.)

True, I was happy that it was toned down quite a bit from idol rotating.

 

[TankUP]

Right after Fandral was released it was very much hated by parts of the community. Raven idol rotating seems to have quieted the anti-Fandral sentiment (along with Jade Idol and then Ultimate Infestation taking its place as a focus for people's anger.)

I think it's one of the strongest legendaries ever printed. Should it be nerfed? My default answer to that question is no, as I'm generally opposed to nerfs except in extreme cases. Fandral isn't breaking the game and the old power play of Fandral into Nourish is completely eclipsed by UI anyway.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I don't remember fandral being hated since Yogg soaked up all the loathing at the time.

 

[Karsticles]

Again, the issue is not that. I never said that. I am saying that you're misreprsenting it's strength when you say it's only a 3/5.

There is a big difference between a 3/5 vanilla and fandral, even when you're not getting synergy out of it the turn it's played. HUUUGE difference.



True, I was happy that it was toned down quite a bit from idol rotating.

I don't think I've pretended he's "only" a 3/5, but rather I've tried to correct your attempts to reframe other cards as things like a "2 mana 1/5 poison taunt" by including his mana and stat-line into that turn's play. I spent a large portion of my last post specifically saying that he's a must-kill target that grants extraordinary value if left alone, so I don't think I'm misrepresenting him at all.

Right after Fandral was released it was very much hated by parts of the community. Raven idol rotating seems to have quieted the anti-Fandral sentiment (along with Jade Idol and then Ultimate Infestation taking its place as a focus for people's anger.)

I think it's one of the strongest legendaries ever printed. Should it be nerfed? My default answer to that question is no, as I'm generally opposed to nerfs except in extreme cases. Fandral isn't breaking the game and the old power play of Fandral into Nourish is completely eclipsed by UI anyway.

It's not entirely eclipsed. Fandral, Innervate, Nourish is a great ramp into UI.

I don't remember fandral being hated since Yogg soaked up all the loathing at the time.

It definitely got hate, and I recall being among the haters. But the game is all about meta context, and Fandral is just "pretty good" compared to the power creep we've seen in the last year.

Hell, C'Thun went from a game-winning card to little more than an amusement card. Remember when people were afraid of C'Thun? lol

Yogg is iffy these days.
Y'Shaarj is back to seeing play thanks to Resurrect Priest, and is very solid.
N'Zoth will probably be a top tier card until the servers shut down...I don't even want to imagine N'Zoth power creep.

 

[slightconfuse]

Aggressive Druid is really annoying

No class should be able to play their entire hand on turn 1

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Kars where you said "But really it's 6-mana for a 3/5 and a 1/5 poisonous taunt across two cards." is saying the card is just a 3/5 in that combo. It's much more than just a 3/5. 6 mana 3/5 + 1/5 poisonous taunt is hugely different than a 3/5 w/ fandral text plus a 1/5 poisonous taunt.

edit:
I can't imagine a better way to protect your fandral for 2 mana, available to druid.

I think it's one of the strongest legendaries ever printed. Should it be nerfed? My default answer to that question is no, as I'm generally opposed to nerfs except in extreme cases. Fandral isn't breaking the game and the old power play of Fandral into Nourish is completely eclipsed by UI anyway.

I think it's been an issue that has been eclipsed, at least in perception, by other issues since it was introduced. A lot of issues swept away by rotation, part of fandral too tbh, and fandral was not a huge factor in most of JTU meta til jade druid was a high tier deck.

And part of the reason I made my original post is that even though you double the strength of nourish, compared to UI it's still dwarfed. Kind of reminds me of kripp's video talking about 5 drops not being 5 times as strong as 1 drops, or something like that. Nourish times 2 is still not UI, not even close. But I think that speaks towards UI more than it says anything about nourish.

 

[Karsticles]

Aggressive Druid is really annoying

No class should be able to play their entire hand on turn 1

RIP Rogues.

I think the problem with modern aggro decks is that they ramp up TOO fast. When I started playing, Aggro Hunter looked to close the game out by turn 7 or so. On a really good day, you won by turn 5. But that was perfect draws against no answers.

Aggro Druid regularly ends the game at turn 4 or 5 - that's the goddamn expectation.
Murloc Paladin (or anything) regularly ends the game on turn 4.
Pirate Warrior usually ends the game on turn 5 if left unchecked, but I've died on turn 4 a good number of times.

Even if Warlock kept Power Overwhelming in Standard, would Zoolock really see play? The power creep is astounding. Honestly, nothing in this game should be killing anyone on turn 3 like that Aggro Druid did to me earlier this week, and turn 4 should be borderline unheard of. Turn 5 kills are more reasonable, because you're at the cusp of what feels like the "midrange game".

Kars where you said "But really it's 6-mana for a 3/5 and a 1/5 poisonous taunt across two cards." is saying the card is just a 3/5 in that combo. It's much more than just a 3/5. 6 mana 3/5 + 1/5 poisonous taunt is hugely different than a 3/5 w/ fandral text aside a 1/5 poisonous taunt.

I said that, and I also said he's a must-kill. Don't cherry pick my statements to make me look imbalanced. I think I was fair in describing the card. It's a card that must be killed and too good, but it isn't worth targeting for a nerf because it isn't absurd.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

I like Fandral. Don't want to see it go but I could see how it could limit design space.

 

[Karsticles]

I like Fandral. Don't want to see it go but I could see how it could limit design space.

I honestly can't see how Fandral, within reason, could get a more powerful combination than Wisps of the Old Gods. You either have an answer to that or you probably die on your next turn.

But still not as broken as old Combo Druid! Man did I hate that deck!

 

[cartographer]

Even if Warlock kept Power Overwhelming in Standard, would Zoolock really see play? The power creep is astounding. Honestly, nothing in this game should be killing anyone on turn 3 like that Aggro Druid did to me earlier this week, and turn 4 should be borderline unheard of. Turn 5 kills are more reasonable, because you're at the cusp of what feels like the "midrange game".

Zoo is too weak to early game weapons / hero powers and is just plain vanilla compared to tribal synergies (PW, Murloc Paladin) or buff mechanics (Evolve Shaman, Aggro Druid). PO would help but it just has a lot going against it right now.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

I said that, and I also said he's a must-kill. Don't cherry pick my statements to make me look imbalanced. I think I was fair in describing the card. It's a card that must be killed and too good, but it isn't worth targeting for a nerf because it isn't absurd.

That spot where you were saying it's just a 3/5 and a 1/5 poisonous taunt was what I was originally responding to. That statement was not reflecting the full power of the card in that situation and all I did was point that out. In that situation it's much stronger than just a 3/5 and a 1/5 poisonous taunt. I agree that a 3/5 and a 1/5 poisonous taunt would definitely not be worth the combo. It's not cherry picking, it's my response to what you said.

edit:

Even here: "Neither is 9 mana for a 3/5 and a 4/6 taunt charge. Hell, Call of the Wild is better than that, and it's just one card!"

This does not reflect the power of fandral. Because a 4/6 charging taunt is also going to protect your fandral. Call of the wild is a strong card, but not comparable really. COTW is more of a one shot and done spell. You can't split the cost up over several turns and fandral is something you can continue to get combos off of. You can't really compare these cards in that way. It's just not an accurate picture of fandral + cotw strength.

 

[Dahbomb]

Finish the game by turn 7?

Haha what are you playing.... "Midrange"?

It's turn 5 these days for aggro decks.


This meme is out dated... because now now aggro decks have us jebaited.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Finish the game by turn 7?

Haha what are you playing.... "Midrange"?

It's turn 5 these days for aggro decks.

Not when I concede when I see a turn 1 Flappy Bird

 

[Ladekabel]

Turn 5? What kind of control deck you guys facing? Turn 3 is sometimes the highest I can go.

Beat the Lich King. For Warlock and Mage it was the Murlocs that did it. Like the Arthas portrait. Better than the one for playing WoW and Uther. Now I only need an alternative Druid one and all my favorite classes have one.

 

[Karsticles]

That spot where you were saying it's just a 3/5 and a 1/5 poisonous taunt was what I was originally responding to. That statement was not reflecting the full power of the card in that situation and all I did was point that out. In that situation it's much stronger than just a 3/5 and a 1/5 poisonous taunt. I agree that a 3/5 and a 1/5 poisonous taunt would definitely not be worth the combo. It's not cherry picking, it's my response to what you said.

Man, I don't know what you're trying to do here, but you seem to be pushing this hard even though I said a lot more than just this.

Finish the game by turn 7?

Haha what are you playing.... "Midrange"?

It's turn 5 these days for aggro decks.


This meme is out dated... because now we are jebaited by real aggro decks.

Old Face Hunter usually had to make it through Sludge Belchers and Deathlords that slowed it down. Getting turn 7 kills was pretty normal. You just played minions with their base statline and went face. You didn't have this crazy tribal stuff that gave you a board full of 7/5 Murlocs by turn 4. Turn 5 kills were the highrolls.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

i remember the days fondly where a turn 2 doomsayer was almost guaranteed to go off, nowadays coining doomsayers out can be too slow.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Man, I don't know what you're trying to do here, but you seem to be pushing this hard even though I said a lot more than just this.

You said it's a 3/5 with a 1/5 with poisnous taunt. I corrected you by saying that is not an accurate depiction of fandral + druid of the swarm.

You said that doesn't make him OP, perhaps in other words. I said that is not why I brought it up. I brought it up to show that that combo is stronger than the way you talked about it.

For example, if I said lich king is a 8/8 for 8 mana that draws a lich card, that would be ignoring the fact that it draws a lich card at the end of each of your turns. If someone pointed out the fact that lich king does that then I could just admit that they were right; I made a mistake and move on.

If it weren't relevant to the power of fandral in synergies with minions, it wouldn't have been brought up.

i remember the days fondly where a turn 2 doomsayer was almost guaranteed to go off, nowadays coining doomsayers out can be too slow.

Mostly since MSG but at least before then you had to at least tech cards to beat doomsayer.

 

[Karsticles]

Doomsayer dying on curve happened a lot when Trogg came around. I don't know how much it happened before that, but I stopped using the card largely because playing it on curve against Trogg usually resulted in it dying somehow.

You said it's a 3/5 with a 1/5 with poisnous taunt. I corrected you by saying that is not an accurate depiction of fandral + druid of the swarm.

You said that doesn't make him OP, perhaps in other words. I said that is not why I brought it up. I brought it up to show that that combo is stronger than the way you talked about it.

For example, if I said lich king is a 8/8 for 8 mana that draws a lich card, that would be ignoring the fact that it draws a lich card at the end of each of your turns. If someone pointed out the fact that lich king does that then I could just admit that they were right; I made a mistake and move on.

If it weren't relevant to the power of fandral in synergies with minions, it wouldn't have been brought up.

I responded to you the first time in agreement:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247123242&postcount=18055

I don't know why you keep talking to me like that post doesn't exist.

 

[Zoggy]

Finish the game by turn 7?

Haha what are you playing.... "Midrange"?

It's turn 5 these days for aggro decks.


This meme is out dated... because now now aggro decks have us jebaited.

Face hunters kills were barely eeking by on t7/8. And they were low on life too at the time desperately relying on skill command top dicks.

They're best weapons were a 2/2 and 3/2 that couldn't get buffed.

I remember, I got hunter golden during the smorc days.

Early game was leper gnome and creeper which is a joke compared to ppp or buffed fireflies or the trogg/totem golem shaman package that just left.

Also if you took care of their early game by t3 or 4 hunter had lost. Could not draw anything and hand was empty.

Druid just reloads with living mana/ nourish and warrior has a 5/3 fiery war axe still with heroic strike and arcanute reaper behind it.

Pirate warrior and Druid blows that deck out of the water.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

I responded to you the first time in agreement:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247123242&postcount=18055

I don't know why you keep talking to me like that post doesn't exist.

I responded to that post specifically pointing out that I am not saying fandral should be nerfed because it has a sort of "must remove" or "snowball" type factor to it.

I said

Again, the issue is not that. I never said that. I am saying that you're misreprsenting it's strength when you say it's only a 3/5.

There is a big difference between a 3/5 vanilla and fandral, even when you're not getting synergy out of it the turn it's played. HUUUGE difference

This remains true. I am not saying you're actively misrepresenting it, I am saying that one post in the discussion did and I thought it was relevant to point out that it's much stronger in those scenarios than depicted. I don't think your post actually acknowledges that, but I think I've made my point on this side discussion absolutely clear.

 

[Lyng]

I have to say I love playing exodia mage.
So freaking satisfying to pull off.

 

[scarlet]

oh hey I didn't see this when I entered the thread before, congrats! you have been trying to get legend for some time now, glad you could make it finally

Grats! =D

Thank you guys!

How is everyone beating Lich King with Warrior?

I've tried versions that use Dead Man's Hand and Arcane Giants with Sunfury Protectors and another version that tries to fatigue him with Dead Man's Hand and the murloc that draws two but I can't seem to get either to work for the life of me.

I use this list below, but Grommash isn't needed

Try to mulligan for patron warrior. Get as much as you could with spells and combine with frothing and armorsmith on turn 7+ and hoping there will be no blizzard. And wild pyro + commanding shout + spells for the big blow.

I used this one subbing for a bunch of cards I didn't have

2 Wild Pyromancer
2 Frothing Berserker
2 Whirlwind
2 Commanding Shout
2 Dread Corsair
2 Inner Rage
2 Acolyte of Pain
2 Shield Block
2 Fiery War Axe
1 Grommash Hellscream
2 Armorsmith
2 Battle Rage
2 Death's Bite
2 Grim Patron
2 Ravaging Ghoul
1 Blood Razor

AAEBAQcC0gLMzQIOFpADkQPUBPwEjgXuBvYH/weCCPsMjQ7nEYKtAgA=

you need a patron online by turn 5 or 6 and it's a bad idea to leave just one on the board because of obliterate.

 

[fertygo]

i remember the days fondly where a turn 2 doomsayer was almost guaranteed to go off, nowadays coining doomsayers out can be too slow.

You exageratting this because doomsayer still the meta anyway

I think doomsayer popped up turn 2 is way less occurence than when aggro shamy is a thing

And the darkest timeline is pre nerf StB

 

[Dahbomb]

Spreading Plague plus Doomsayer is pretty good.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

You exageratting this because doomsayer still the meta anyway

I think doomsayer popped up turn 2 is way less occurence than when aggro shamy is a thing

And the darkest timeline is pre nerf StB

doomsayer is still great but ever since MSG it's gotten much worse

 

[MrPing1000]

hmmph I'm a f2p guy with 5k dust, not sure what to craft. Sadly got Jaina from the knights (boo). I guess the lich king is a no brainer? Priest is my favourite hero but he's kinda meh this expansion to me anyway. Don't particulary want to play druid lameness either.

 

[cartographer]

hmmph I'm a f2p guy with 5k dust, not sure what to craft. Sadly got Jaina from the knights (boo). I guess the lich king is a no brainer? Priest is my favourite hero but he's kinda meh this expansion to me anyway. Don't particulary want to play druid lameness either.

Lich King being new and a neutral helps, as he can be thrown into a lot of decks and he'll be in standard for the next 1.5 years. In that way he's a pretty safe craft. I happened to open him and get good use out of him. Versus say crafting something like Y'shaarj, which is only used in a few decks on and off and will be rotating next year.

Depending on your collection and what you like to play it's possible there's some other epics or legs that would be more important. Hard to say without knowing.

 

[scarlet]

hmmph I'm a f2p guy with 5k dust, not sure what to craft. Sadly got Jaina from the knights (boo). I guess the lich king is a no brainer? Priest is my favourite hero but he's kinda meh this expansion to me anyway. Don't particulary want to play druid lameness either.

Control mage is getting popular lately. You can use your dust to support your Jaina.

Why do you think priest is a meh?

 

[Karsticles]

hmmph I'm a f2p guy with 5k dust, not sure what to craft. Sadly got Jaina from the knights (boo). I guess the lich king is a no brainer? Priest is my favourite hero but he's kinda meh this expansion to me anyway. Don't particulary want to play druid lameness either.

Deathknight Anduin is one of the few S-tier cards this expansion.

 

[fertygo]

Pro really high on Jaina last few day and starting to believe Lich Grinder Mage as tier 1 deck

Deck run 2 meteor and 2 polymorph. Its the hottest thing on legend rank right now

 

[Zoggy]

Priest is my favourite hero r.

Uninstall this game and never return, it's super p2w you will hate it

 

[MrPing1000]

Control mage is getting popular lately. You can use your dust to support your Jaina.

Why do you think priest is a meh?

I saw toast playing a variation of that yesterday, missing the pyros and Primordial glyph cards. It did look good though.

I thought priest was just BIG priest atm, guess not.

Uninstall this game and never return, it's super p2w you will hate it

I've been F2P for many years heh, patron warrior actually made me stop playing when it was a thing. I just save gold to play arena then repeat.

 

[Karsticles]

Control Priest is top tier right now.

Pro really high on Jaina last few day and starting to believe Lich Grinder Mage as tier 1 deck

Deck run 2 meteor and 2 polymorph. Its the hottest thing on legend rank right now

This deck?
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/919346-legend-grinder-mage

That Skulking Geist!

Can this deck realistically beat DK Anduin, though?

 

[scarlet]

I saw toast playing a variation of that yesterday, missing the pyros and Primordial glyph cards. It did look good though.

I thought priest was just BIG priest atm, guess not.

Razakus Anduin is fun, personally I think the combo version is more exciting.

Big priest, well yeah. Once barnes is on the board it's really hard to beat.

Control Priest is top tier right now.



This deck?
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/919346-legend-grinder-mage

That Skulking Geist!

Can this deck realistically beat DK Anduin, though?

As Razakus I never lost against Jaina, but it was really close.

One match up he got back to 30 with geddon, but I still had my 32 damage combo, so I won.

 

[fertygo]

This deck?
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/919346-legend-grinder-mage

That Skulking Geist!

Can this deck realistically beat DK Anduin, though?

Look to Zalae's twitter

I think the current build not even had any elemental

Jaina itself contain enough value

 

[scarlet]

Look to Zalae's twitter

I think the current build not even had any elemental

Jaina itself contain enough value

Here

I really like these hero cards.

I hope they can explore more of it in the future. Do something similar like this or introducing new things, eventhough it's not working all the time like quest.

 

[ZealousD]

I like Fandral. Don't want to see it go but I could see how it could limit design space.

If Fandral can exist in the game at the same time as Raven Idol and Wisps of the Old Gods, what design space is being limited?

 

[A Pretty Panda]

If Fandral can exist in the game at the same time as Raven Idol and Wisps of the Old Gods, what design space is being limited?

Dumber choose ones

 

[Zoggy]

Here



I really like these hero cards.

I hope they can explore more of it in the future. Do something similar like this or introducing new things, eventhough it's not working all the time like quest.

It's a little stupid to have 9 different ones all as legendaries tho. Makes the game more expensive.

Why not one legendary called the death knight hero card, and if you play it you become the dk for that class. Should have done the same with quests.

This prevents rogue from become frost lich Jaime and those shenanigans

It's like if in tgt they printed 9 versions of justicar for each hero power.

 

[fertygo]

That is fine

Most legendaries already bad


So why the fuck we want them still bad so the game not "expensive"

That is fuckimg stupid

 

[FormallyFamicom]

I do kinda miss the days when the most powerful legendaries were neutrals. As a F2P player it was a lot easier to say "ok I just need these two legendaries and I'm good to play 7 classes worth of decks" than the way it works now, where each class needs it's own legendary or three to play good decks.

Less variety on ladder but easier on my dust. I don't even ladder that much so take me back!

 

[Zoggy]

So we can craft one card to try all the death knights instead dropping 1600 for each one.

Same with the quests.

 

[Karsticles]

It would be very generous on Blizzard's part, no doubt.

I would settle for them permanently doubling quest rewards.

 

[MrPing1000]

Look to Zalae's twitter

I think the current build not even had any elemental

Jaina itself contain enough value

Had to craft glyphs and meteors but this seems nice. First opponent was a buff druid, I actually felt sorry for him.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

*get on after not playing for a day*

*Lose five in a row*

That's enough hearthstone for the day