A nerf doesn't have to be done in a way that makes the card see play. It just needs to be done in a way that makes the card not completely worthless. I think removing draw from the card entirely just makes the card crazy overcosted and changing the numbers to 4 risks a nerf where the card is still too strong.
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Hearthstone |OT9| Our raid wiped in Icecrown Citadel
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
A nerf doesn't have to be done in a way that makes the card see play. It just needs to be done in a way that makes the card not completely worthless. I think removing draw from the card entirely just makes the card crazy overcosted and changing the numbers to 4 risks a nerf where the card is still too strong.
I saw that a lot of people consider keeping DK jaina in mulligan, which is nuts considering it is a 9 cost card.
It is that powerful.
Oh I wasn't trying to shoot down the idea at all. I really like it. Whether it gets played or not was never my concern, hence why I only mentioned it as a throw-away line at the end of the post. Giving more ways to differentiate the druid decks that are currently out there (as well as pulling the insane draw out of them) will go a long way toward shaking up the high level druidstone meta we're in atm.
Though I did play 10ish games yesterday and only faced a handful of druids in my climb toward rank 5 over the last several days. Maybe I just got lucky. Played a bunch of mages though. Exodia and secret all over.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
All the DKs are easy 4/5s except Thrall and Garrosh. I don't think Jaina is particularly standing out among the rest, they were intended to be busted.
Garrosh DK is really strong but the deck type just doesn't exist yet. Not enough minions or mechanics that benefit off of self damage in Standard yet. You can try out Garrosh DK in Wild Tempo Patron and you will found out that the card does MASSIVE work. Hell the card is even very good in that Dead Man Giant deck.
Playing against the Thrall DK, it's also not too bad either especially for an Evolve deck.
Playing against the Thrall DK, it's also not too bad either especially for an Evolve deck.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I didn't mean to say they were weak, among the 9 DKs they are just the ones offering the least inevitability imo.
I used Garrosh for the Lich King he really is strong just a notch beneath the others.
Same with Thrall really, he's just a tad too board dependent.
Karsticles
Member
rofl you think that's worth 10 mana? What decks run this shit card?
I don't know how much draw a card and it costs (5) is worth but it's probably worth like 1.5 mana at least.
Summon a 5/5 and deal 5 damage is worth 7 mana, it's essentially Firelands Portal.
Gain 5 armor is worth like 1 mana but when attached to something else it's worth more (like say Shield Maiden).
Depending on how you calculate the draw, the card is worth somewhere between 9 and 10 mana.
Issue is that when you are playing a 10 mana card you demand more than 10 mana value from it. Call of the Wild is technically 12 mana worth of stats on the board because individually those cards are actually worth 4 mana each (Animal Companion is 3 mana even though each minion is a 4 mana minion because of the random element).
I think if it drew cards then that would make it worth playing. 10 mana cycle is just not enough.
Summon a 5/5 and deal 5 damage is worth 7 mana, it's essentially Firelands Portal.
Gain 5 armor is worth like 1 mana but when attached to something else it's worth more (like say Shield Maiden).
Depending on how you calculate the draw, the card is worth somewhere between 9 and 10 mana.
Issue is that when you are playing a 10 mana card you demand more than 10 mana value from it. Call of the Wild is technically 12 mana worth of stats on the board because individually those cards are actually worth 4 mana each (Animal Companion is 3 mana even though each minion is a 4 mana minion because of the random element).
I think if it drew cards then that would make it worth playing. 10 mana cycle is just not enough.
Deal 5 damage and draw 5 cards? tbh most of the time I run UI is because of the insane card cycle, most of the time I don't care about ghoul or the armor.
I often don't find the damage something crucial. dumping my hand on board and subsequently filling it again is how I'm playing it often.
I often don't find the damage something crucial. dumping my hand on board and subsequently filling it again is how I'm playing it often.
Why do so many people here have to be such a dick when it comes to discussing cards?
For the record... draw 5 cards would be worth 9 mana.
UI could have two of its functions removed yet retain card draw and still be a strong card.
But Blizzard has stated that they don't want Druid to have that much card draw so reading between the lines, the card draw is the part that is most likely to get nerfed. I just wonder if they can nerf the card while keeping the card's theme of the number 5.
UI could have two of its functions removed yet retain card draw and still be a strong card.
But Blizzard has stated that they don't want Druid to have that much card draw so reading between the lines, the card draw is the part that is most likely to get nerfed. I just wonder if they can nerf the card while keeping the card's theme of the number 5.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
if you want to keep the 5 theme then make it.
"Draw cards until you have 5 cards in hand."
Very significant nerf but also makes it so it's just as powerful with a mre difficult setup.
"Draw cards until you have 5 cards in hand."
Very significant nerf but also makes it so it's just as powerful with a mre difficult setup.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Deal 5 damage to yourself instead of card draw
That's a fair change only I think Blizzard would want to nerf it harder than that.
They are in a difficult spot here. If they nerf too much then people are going to complain with the usual "lol just deleted the card from the game!" If they don't nerf enough then people will complain "lol this does absolutely nothing... Druid still the best class!"
It's a good change, they just also would need to hit Innervate at the same time.
hypersheep
Member
I have a golden Deathseeker Thrall and it's the best card in the game. It's so wonderful when I play it and my board turns into beautiful golden minions.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I mean that'd be a hefty nerf already. Most often the first UI would be a draw 3 and the 2nd UI would take ages to draw 2 subsequently. It all around makes it more akward.
I get that they're different games, but I still feel like there's some lessons Blizzard should have learned from MTG. Fast mana is always super dangerous and innervate is a better dark ritual exclusive to one class.
As a totally random aside, the fact that thoughtsteal is a good card is kind of an indictment to their design to me. Like, getting 2 totally random cards that may or may not align with your strategy should be a terrible card, but the fact that it yields card advantage when the game fundamentally punishes control decks that want to draw a lot by fatiguing them is enough to make it not only playable but good in most priest control decks. I don't think the card is OP at all, but more an indication that something is kind of screwed up with the library limit/fatigue systems. Hell, that's another reason Jade Druid is so strong- running out the deck should be something that only super dedicated hard control decks and mill decks can achieve, but it's super easy to do in Hearthstone. I think they need to seriously look at upping the limit- at least to 40, perhaps with a change in individual card limits from 2 > 3 to preserve consistency. This would be a pretty major change, so I can't say offhand it'd improve the game; I'd just like them to do some testing and thought experiments behind the scenes.
The only thing I dislike about nerfing UI's card draw- which is absolutely the aspect that needs hitting- is that it weakens Quest Druid more than it does Jade, and Quest obviously is in a weaker spot.
As a totally random aside, the fact that thoughtsteal is a good card is kind of an indictment to their design to me. Like, getting 2 totally random cards that may or may not align with your strategy should be a terrible card, but the fact that it yields card advantage when the game fundamentally punishes control decks that want to draw a lot by fatiguing them is enough to make it not only playable but good in most priest control decks. I don't think the card is OP at all, but more an indication that something is kind of screwed up with the library limit/fatigue systems. Hell, that's another reason Jade Druid is so strong- running out the deck should be something that only super dedicated hard control decks and mill decks can achieve, but it's super easy to do in Hearthstone. I think they need to seriously look at upping the limit- at least to 40, perhaps with a change in individual card limits from 2 > 3 to preserve consistency. This would be a pretty major change, so I can't say offhand it'd improve the game; I'd just like them to do some testing and thought experiments behind the scenes.
The only thing I dislike about nerfing UI's card draw- which is absolutely the aspect that needs hitting- is that it weakens Quest Druid more than it does Jade, and Quest obviously is in a weaker spot.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
Put together a Jade Druid deck. UI is definitely strong, but against control it's kind of a dead card because drawing 5 would mill yourself with the rest of your hand sitting unplayed.
I used the greedy version with Medivh and it's inconsistent as I end up using low-cost spells to empty my hand in preparation for UI.
Also threw in Hadronox and of course it's pretty much useless as the handful of times I played it, it would just revive Behemoths and Scarabs.
Then again I rarely faced aggro (Warlocks using Mountain Giants and Twilight Drakes again) and the couple times I did, it was a comfortable win with Spreading Plague, silences, and removal.
I used the greedy version with Medivh and it's inconsistent as I end up using low-cost spells to empty my hand in preparation for UI.
Also threw in Hadronox and of course it's pretty much useless as the handful of times I played it, it would just revive Behemoths and Scarabs.
Then again I rarely faced aggro (Warlocks using Mountain Giants and Twilight Drakes again) and the couple times I did, it was a comfortable win with Spreading Plague, silences, and removal.
Hmm.. I hadn't considered that. I was thinking on crafting a golden lich king, but this sounds cool too.
I like having larger decks while keeping 2 copy limit. That alone would increase card variety in the game. There are not that many good cards in the game really and having to play more cards forces players to play stuff beside the OP auto include ones.
it allows you to play it with a full hand or near fatigue too. I like the change, it has some benefits too. UI is not as strong in non jade decks, they easily deck themselves and second copy of the card becomes dead.
it allows you to play it with a full hand or near fatigue too. I like the change, it has some benefits too. UI is not as strong in non jade decks, they easily deck themselves and second copy of the card becomes dead.
Golden Elise is the best, just because you get to hear the announcer explode in ecstasy every time you open the Un'Goro pack.
"GOLDEN LEGENDARY?!?!?!??" *passes out*
Golden LK is pretty sweet. Of the DKs, Golden Thrall and Gul'Dan are probably the coolest, since you get a whole board of shiny every time you use them.
While I think it's fine for your standard cards, I do like that the game has build around legendaries, and there's already issues with finding those in time for your deck to actually function given the 1 copy limit and lack of tutoring/scry mechanics. I don't think they can up the legendary limit without upping the base limit, though. (Although scry and tutoring mechanics + quest like design for build arounds might be the better answer anyway)
"GOLDEN LEGENDARY?!?!?!??" *passes out*
Golden LK is pretty sweet. Of the DKs, Golden Thrall and Gul'Dan are probably the coolest, since you get a whole board of shiny every time you use them.
While I think it's fine for your standard cards, I do like that the game has build around legendaries, and there's already issues with finding those in time for your deck to actually function given the 1 copy limit and lack of tutoring/scry mechanics. I don't think they can up the legendary limit without upping the base limit, though. (Although scry and tutoring mechanics + quest like design for build arounds might be the better answer anyway)
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
The consistency of reliably being able to draw your whole deck has been an enabler for many degenerate decks in hearthstone.
You really don't have to jump through hoops to get there either.
You really don't have to jump through hoops to get there either.
But it used to come at a heavier cost. Either through tempo loss or life loss or both.
UI skirts around all of the issues of card draw in the game especially when combined with Jade Idol.
In any case, I would say that Auctioneer is on borrowed time as well.
Decks in MTG run 21->26 land normally (outside of formats with a lot of cheap "draw card" effects) - HS decks are effectively normal TCG decks without the mana/energy cards.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
another example of this would be Exodia Mage. I don't want the deck limit changed but there's a dullness to absolute consistent decks both playing with and against.
by that comparison you also draw 2 cards each turn because of the guaranteed land drop in HS
You can think of it like Firelands Portal + Shield Block. That's 10 mana.
Keeping in mind for a moment that Druid has the tools to play 10 mana cards earlier than other classes. This is not a factor I will be discounting on future 9/10 mana cards for Druid.
HS's biggest danger as a game is the one that doomed VS System: decks being too consistent, and being unable to come back if a deck curves out on you.
There's a reason you only start with 3-4 cards.
What?! Oh man, I love it when he does that.
UI is getting nerfed to unplayable, I've accepted it already.
VS System had a massive skill ceiling compared to Hearthstone, plus there's a lot less RNG ever saving you. HS is never going to have the kind of search tools or versatility that game has, add in limited cards and 'too consistent' will never be a problem for the game.
VS was the GOAT
VS System had a massive skill ceiling compared to Hearthstone, plus there's a lot less RNG ever saving you. HS is never going to have the kind of search tools or versatility that game has, add in limited cards and 'too consistent' will never be a problem for the game.
VS was the GOAT
VS's lack of RNG was one of the things that killed it! That's why they went so far overboard w/ it in constructed-level cards in HS early on.
BananasWithGuns
Member
If there's one good thing about all the Druid bullshit it's that it feels that much better to beat them.
Edit: You know, I wouldn't mind big Priest as much if it took any modicum of skill to play. People always throw out the words brainless and skill-less but that deck is the very definition of it.
Edit: You know, I wouldn't mind big Priest as much if it took any modicum of skill to play. People always throw out the words brainless and skill-less but that deck is the very definition of it.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
I like the idea of the new Tempo Warrior but it actually feels like I have no tempo at all and I'm playing from behind constantly. If I don't start with FWA I just get run over completely
This is helpful, he breaks down each class by deck hype. One of these decks might break the meta 🤔🤔🤔🤔
I agree with this wholeheartedly. The deck still needs work, but Jaina is unbelievably powerful. She has soloed even unfavorable match-ups, winning the game single-handedly. Playing her with Geddon is ridonkulous. I wish she was at eight, rather than nine, mana though. : /
BananasWithGuns
Member
Winstreaked to 5 on the back on N'Zoth Hunter.
Not something I expected to be saying but hey, I'll take it. Super fun deck too.
Not something I expected to be saying but hey, I'll take it. Super fun deck too.
Karsticles
Member
4-0 against Jade Druid with Secret Hunter so far.
Are we even playing the same game ?
You ramp up while emptying your hand and then use it, its the best most ridiculous play in the game right now against control because it will give u everything while they struggle to output anything that can contest your 5/5 ghoul.
Dont waste early nourish on cards draw, use it as a ramp card.
2 UI is there for consistency, not because u can actually play them both.
UI to draw a card and change its cost to 5 is definitely a flavorful change, but it'd completely kill the card.
Innervate allowing you to both play it on earlier turns AND to spit out jades + empty your hand to protect from overdraw after playing it is the real issue. Nerf innervate to oblivion and neither Lore (which was essentially a weaker UI) or FoN (which was fair since it was pretty similar to leeroy + PO and was bad only because Roar was the real busted card AND the ability to FoN+roar+innervate+roar or simply have a good board from earlier turns because of innervate) would've needed nerfs .
Innervate allowing you to both play it on earlier turns AND to spit out jades + empty your hand to protect from overdraw after playing it is the real issue. Nerf innervate to oblivion and neither Lore (which was essentially a weaker UI) or FoN (which was fair since it was pretty similar to leeroy + PO and was bad only because Roar was the real busted card AND the ability to FoN+roar+innervate+roar or simply have a good board from earlier turns because of innervate) would've needed nerfs .
Lagspike_exe
Member
Can you post the deck? I've been playing mid range hunter with DK and hero card but I want to dust off my NZoth.
Hopefully that would mean Ice Block gets HoF'ed too next standard rotation.
I mean that Innervate is such a core and staple part of Druid that it is hard to think of it being touched like that. Up until this time none of the major class identity cards have been fixed. Closest we have gotten to it are Hunter's Mark, Execute and Rockbiter as they were all basic cards.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Yeah, I'm not a fan of consistency without effort. Decks should either be subject to some measure of RNG or should have to devote tools/space/tempo in-game to things like tutors, scrys, or other thinning/searching effects to perform consistently. HS doesn't have those things but the decks are so small it doesn't need them, and it doesn't have land to draw to give opps on the back foot the chance to breathe. You just draw gas after gas after gas. It also affords combat initiative to the person with the onboard advantage, rather than allowing a player with a strong defensive minion the chance the "hold the line" and stage a comeback. AND players can always use a hero power, even if they don't have relevant plays.
It's feels considerably harder to mount comebacks in Hearthstone than it is in Magic.
It's a better dark ritual and 1 mana off being a Black Lotus. That's crazy!
I know, I know- different game so it doesn't translate the same way.