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Hearthstone |OT9| Our raid wiped in Icecrown Citadel
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
Infinite Stars
Member
I mean, I think The solution with balancing is to go full on HotS mode, where they rework the base/core set completey. Every rotation Warrior keeps basically 90% of Control Warrior vs Warlock/Priest/priest who basically start back from square one. I think there needs to be some balance in that regard.
Can confirm, Overwatch was lagging like crazy
Can confirm, Overwatch was lagging like crazy
Speaking of which, has Rogue ever been tier 1 outside the beginning of Gadgetzan? I only ever started paying attention to reports around the time that expansion came out.
I remember such a thing, good times.
It was tier 1 when game came out in 2013-2014. It was hilariously broken in beta and lots of cards got changed. Then again in 2014 they nerfed miracle like twice. First it was Leeroy then they nerfed Auctioneer. For most of 2014 though hunter was tier 1 and that deck beat rogue very well.
For a short period after GvG came out, oil rogue was considered tier 1 by pros. It didn't really last long but it was a solid tier 2 deck for entirely of 2015. It performed very well in tournaments, not so much on ladder.
Again after rotation hit with old gods, miracle rogue was tier 1 for a few weeks... yeah. Quest rogue was like tier 3. That's it. The class has had 3 real decks in 4 years.
Hunter and rogue are the most nerfed classes. Druid probably passes them after this week.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I'm strongly considering crafting prince of 4 to play this stonetusk otk and other rogue decks.
If they nerf druid and it's very likely. Highlander priest will be the new jade druid and more people will complaining about it a lot.
So to answer your question, it's safe to craft.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Thijs played this today with a coin shaved for a curator and a stonetusk boar instead of Southsea Deckhand.It's not even really Mill Rogue, but still, it's crazy that he's doing so well with it.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
You're right. If tier 1 sucks and tier 0 is finally making it, you're right.
I think if you look back on those 3 periods, druid is either tier 1 or tier 2 throughout. I mean, you're basically claiming druid sucked throughout the period it had the best combo finisher in the game.
slightconfuse
Banned
Fun fact for rogue and priest players . If you play Janis and then your death night her effect still applies to any elemental you play.
Also what is this giant Druid deck?
Also what is this giant Druid deck?
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Makes sense since it's a battlecry from jaina, not an active effect iirc.
Karsticles
Member
No one wants every goddamn game to take half an hour.LEAVE PRIEST ALONE!!!!
please let us dominate the meta for once
Naga Sea Witch changes the cost of all of your cards to 5. Blizzard, for some reason, changed the card so that it makes all giants START at 5 cost and then go down, so if you have taken 5 damage Molten Giant is free, etc. It's so stupid. I don't know why they did that.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
About the sea witch thing, it sort of is consistent. Mana cost changes usually do stack, like multiple emperor ticks. Hand buffs stack. Dunno if they should revert it or not, wild is meant to be a place of broken combos.
Karsticles
Member
If there was a turn 1 OTK in Wild, I don't think "this is the place for broken combos" is an excuse. Wild is a place where everyone can go to still enjoy their full card collection. Sometimes broken things might arise from it, but Blizzard should still attempt to balance it.
People have complained about "Big Priest" being too good - on turn 5 you start getting an 8//8 every turn, or something similar in power. This deck drops 4-5 8/8s on you on turn 5. That's before Lightbomb unless you have a coin. That's before Twisting Nether. That's before Vanish, and Vanish doesn't even matter because they can bring the entire board back on the next turn. It makes Jade Druid look fair and balanced, because Jade Druid can't even make a board half that crazy on turn 10. The only answer is more aggro, which I am so fucking tired of playing.
We're not talking about something that's a little too good. This is a deck that nukes most other decks on curve, and Blizzard went out of their way to create it and fuck over an entire meta. The only thing Wild players haven't figure out is which class plays it the best, because it's ALL NEUTRAL CARDS!
slightconfuse
Banned
Got a golden sargent Sally(am trying to get a kun or wickerflame)
Decided to craft quest mage. Deck is really fun to play, reminds me of old freeze mage.
Love decks where you have to make decisions
Decided to craft quest mage. Deck is really fun to play, reminds me of old freeze mage.
Love decks where you have to make decisions
Karsticles
Member
This is a sad thing to read, lol.
SodiumBenzoate
Member
It's a very high skillcap deck, not sure what you're laughing at about his post?
Karsticles
Member
I'm laughing because decks where you have to make decisions aren't the norm in Hearthstone, and that's a sad thing. Personally, I enjoy playing aggro in some other card games, but in Hearthstone you can have an AI pilot your deck and it's the same as playing it yourself. They really need to sit down and figure out how to make all archetypes thoughtful and interesting to play.
Hopefully never. Let that class stay at the bottom until they redesign Hunter.
I wonder if they will ever do this with any class. seems like an excessive amount of work to do that.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Forerunner
Member
lol I didn't even realize this came with an adventure. It wasn't until I saw someone using Young Arthas that he has to be unlocked through it.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I see pwars make mistakes all the time.
Prologue gives a free random deathknight hero card.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
why would it be PW is a deck that is already prone to losing to its own hand with the curve being 5 heavy and add to that the patches lottery and you can hover around a 50% win rate for ages.
I mean 50% winrate is good enough to gain rank before 5
Karsticles
Member
Some aggro takes skill. But being able to misplay isn't the same as requiring skill. When playing Renolock I've seen Tempo Mages play Flamewaker bare with no follow-up spells on curve. Those people being complete idiots doesn't mean that the deck takes skill. A Pirate Warrior player killing a 1/1 with an Arcanite Reaper instead of going face doesn't mean the deck requires skill. The question is whether the proper play decisions are obvious or nuanced.And... we're back to aggro takes no skill.
I would say Face Hunter is the lowest skill cap in the game - way below Pirate Warrior when it was a deck. Zoolock is very low as well. Pirate Warrior is probably a 4/10 on the "skill scale" - there are a reasonable number of opportunities for misplays. But I want aggro that's more like an 8/10 on the scale - I want an aggro deck that makes me think about what I'm doing every turn. Songhai was great about this in Duelyst. Aggro took so much foresight and planning in that game - you took 3-4 turns to groom your hand into the perfect burst combo while maintaining yourself.
<3 Blizzard, though, good guy.
In fact, I would guess that Blizzard's problem is that he doesn't go face hard enough - he tries to maintain the board like it matters. Not everyone is well-suited for every archetype. Personally, it bothers me to go face instead of managing the board!
Forerunner
Member
Yeah, just did it. Got the Warrior DK from it.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I am not talking about making obvious mistakes, I am talking about making subtle ones. Some pwars never identify when they're not the beat down or when they need to control the board more than they are instead of pushing face damage. Some pwars don't identify when their only chance is to go face. I had a pwar use heroic strike to push face damage instead of using the weapon to trade and using heroic strike next turn. I see timing of the usage of your cards being something people trip over.
Face hunter also has similar questions. Primarily when to stop fighting for board and when to go face is definitely something that depends on the match up and the situation you're in. Aggro is of course not the deck where you make a ton of different lines of play every game, but the few you do make have big impact that is often not easily foreseeable. And I get that people like to play combo decks because you have to a larger degree more control of the outcome. Somewhat the same with control decks, although some actually argue that aggro takes about the same skill as a control deck that just makes the most defensive play each turn until their opponent runs out of resources.
oh zoo.. that's right... we have been so far from that deck.
that deck required some good thinking, both in what to play as well as how to position the minions and what exactly to attack
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Zoolock used to be one of the highest skill cap decks period. Every decision mattered with comparatively little reach and so many cards caring about position.
I tried some decks yesterday to see if I wanted to push for Gold hunter this meta... holy shit Hunter sucks so much. I don't feel like grinding face hunter in wild so I'm sitting this meta out and nostamPray that Blizzard overtunes Hunter next set.
There shouldn't be a neutral giants package that you can stick in literally any deck and beat every midrange and control deck with. Talk about oppressive.
LEAVE PRIEST ALONE!!!!
please let us dominate the meta for once
Priest has always dominated the rank 25-15 meta and that's where Priest belongs. I had a Priest play Mind Control vs me today... it's like, do you WANT to lose to every aggressive deck on ladder?
It's super broken, so you should definitely craft it. It's frustrating, though, to lose when either Raza or Shadowreaper are in your bottom 5.
Is this a post from 2015? LOL.
cartographer
Member
Yeah PW isn't anywhere close to Face Hunter level simple. It's not super complicated but there are things you can mess up. A lot of thst is general playing knowledge and knowing your outs, but the truly simple decks don't even take that into account.
Zoo had a high skill cap and is now either underpowered or a discard Fiesta. Sad really. Still one of my favorite decks.
I don't really like how things get labeled brainless when it becomes popular or powerful. The only way you can seemingly avoid that distinction is if the deck involves blatantly complex interactions like Patron (or Defile now, I guess). I've even seen people call old Handlock brainless, which IMO was the highest skill cap deck we've had.
Zoo had a high skill cap and is now either underpowered or a discard Fiesta. Sad really. Still one of my favorite decks.
I don't really like how things get labeled brainless when it becomes popular or powerful. The only way you can seemingly avoid that distinction is if the deck involves blatantly complex interactions like Patron (or Defile now, I guess). I've even seen people call old Handlock brainless, which IMO was the highest skill cap deck we've had.
I would say Midrange Hunter and Secret Paladin are the easiest decks in the game to play. Face Hunter still cares to weave in hero power to maximize damage so it's more skillful, Midrange Hunter plays pure curve and just uses hero power late game to fill curve.
You know Midrange Hunter is easy when that's the deck Krupp used to reach Legend with.
Internally, everyone just hates Hunter even if you like Hunter. Whenever they think of a smorc deck, they think of Hunter even though Pirate Warrior does it better. Whenever anyone thinks of "worst meta ever" they think of Undertaker Hunter even though at that time we had Combo Druid which had really strong win rate and other forms of Undertaker decks like Zoo Undertaker. Whenever anyone think of Leper Gnome or Arcane Golem or Abusive Sergeant.. they think "man thank god these cards got nerfed, now finally Face Hunter is brought down".
You know Midrange Hunter is easy when that's the deck Krupp used to reach Legend with.
Internally, everyone just hates Hunter even if you like Hunter. Whenever they think of a smorc deck, they think of Hunter even though Pirate Warrior does it better. Whenever anyone thinks of "worst meta ever" they think of Undertaker Hunter even though at that time we had Combo Druid which had really strong win rate and other forms of Undertaker decks like Zoo Undertaker. Whenever anyone think of Leper Gnome or Arcane Golem or Abusive Sergeant.. they think "man thank god these cards got nerfed, now finally Face Hunter is brought down".
Karsticles
Member
Murloc Paladin is in my top 3 dumbest right now.
@Levi: Face Hunter doesn't even survive in Wild. It gets overrun by any other aggro deck because new aggro is aggro AND tempo.
@Levi: Face Hunter doesn't even survive in Wild. It gets overrun by any other aggro deck because new aggro is aggro AND tempo.
Except in any kind of control or combo deck, you have to make the right decision for 10-20 turns to win. In an aggro deck, you often play on curve for 4-5 turns and then win the game. If someone counters your first few turns, you probably lost and should move on. Both decks can come to difficult positions, but in practice the aggro deck just vomits a hand, goes face, and hopes for the best. And you can win like that semi-consistently, which is what's bothersome. The aggro decks can have a noticeable skill cap, but it very rarely comes into play.
I don't see it. The decisions you make in Zoolock are all pretty straight-forward IMO. I agree it isn't as dumb as Secret Paladin, which really used to piss me off because they could go face from turn 1 and still win.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
getting to make more decisions doesn't mean all the prior decisions were right. Making wrong plays doesn't lose control the game automatically because control decks have access to huge haymakers in the lategame.
Specifically against aggro the amount of decisions it takes you to win are low because at a point where you can do lots of things, that don't involve spinning the wheels, the aggro player already lost.
there where guides about how to play zoo... I had to read them to properly learn how to pilot that deck.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Longer games does not inherently mean more skilled, and same goes for more decisions. That is basically my primary point with the last post. There are tons of rather obvious decisions when you're playing a control deck.
I think I've seen this discussion play out 100 times already. Some articles on the subject:
http://www.pcgamer.com/in-defence-of-aggro-in-hearthstone/
https://tempostorm.com/articles/the-skill-myth-in-aggro-decks
I've seen many pro players comment that aggro is high skill.
Old school Murloc Paladin was definitely very dumb, in fact Murloc decks used to be the original bot decks (Murloc Shaman and Murloc Warlock for example). New Murloc has more decisions to make even though it's still a curve deck, mostly because it has Discovers to make.
*Large selection of 1 drops: Zoo historically has the highest selection of 1 drops in the game. And every 1 drop does a different thing and is better in different match ups. Zoolock is one of the few decks where you would purposely mulligan AWAY specific 1 drops to get better chance of getting a different 1 drop. Like I would mulligan away Flame Imp in order to increase my chances of getting a Possessed Villager against a Warrior (especially if I am anticipating Control Warrior).
1 drops are also more skillful in general because you can use them whenever (some you don't like Abusive Sergeant) which means knowing when to play which 1 drop and when not to play the 1 drop is a big deal on why this is a hard deck to play. Most average Zoo players will vomit their 1 drops on the board then come on forums to complain that their 1 drops got board cleared because that Priest got a lucky top deck board clear.
*Zoolock still remains probably the only deck where position matters. It also has token generation or deathrattle generations. You have to position your 1 drops WELL in advance... not just to set up for Direwolfs and Defender of Argus but to anticipate their drops. For example, I have Flame Imp, Possessed Villager and Voidwalker in hand against a Rogue. I am anticipating that Rogue will play Tomb Pillager on turn 4. I would play Voidwalker far left, Flame Imp in the middle and Possessed Villager on far right. This way if he plays 2 HP minion, I can play Direwolf on Possessed Villager and still have a buffed minion on the right (while buffing Flame Imp to 4 for more face damage). If he plays Tomb Pillager, I send the buffed Flame Imp to is face.. then I get the buffed Void Walker at 2 AND the buffed Possessed Villager to face for more damage.
If this position had been messed up I would've lost out on percentages long term. This impacts Defender of Argus even more as I would want to taunt up specific minions, usually not Flame Imp, Direwolf or Void Walker but rather Possessed Villager and Argent Squire so I would position those minions together and the other minions away from these two. These position considerations have to be made starting turn 1 even when you don't have Defender of Argus because of reason #3.
3) Always have access to draw. This is the defining trait that separates Zoolock from regular aggro or curve decks. Zoolock can slow roll match ups. A Zoolock player can forego tempo for a draw to prolong threat generation. This is not a choice that other decks have and because this choice exists, it makes this deck harder to play. To tap or not to tap... that is the question. Most Zoo players will just dump their hands, go face or trade then start tapping when their hand/board is empty. When in fact you want to be tapping even earlier than that to get better plays in certain match ups. Sometimes you don't have lethal on board or from and but you can risk tapping for a chance to draw that PO for lethal. Most players will not even think of it and would instead choose to spend their mana on their hand. When you are playing not only from your hand but from your deck, that makes play making difficult. Every loss you come across you could have always thought to yourself "what if I had tapped and gotten the card I wanted earlier". Drawing against other aggro decks is also very difficult especially against Face Hunter because you might life tap too much and put yourself within burn range.
4) Zoolock more than most deck is more mindful of what the other person is playing and more specifically what minions they are playing. A Pirate Warrior or a Face Hunter is not going to care that you played a 3 HP minion vs a 4 HP minion (unless they have some devastating text), their plays are hardly altered. For a Zoolock it matters a lot because they have to anticipate the minion in advance and set up a board of 1 drops to trade up into it. Zoolock is just in general more board interactive and more fundamental based but the switch from board control to all face is more nuanced than in other decks. This is doubly true when dealing against board clears. Pirate Warrior and Face Hunter do not care their boards got wiped because they play charge minions that hit face or buff their weapons... they got the intended value already. For Zoolock board clears are much more devastating as against control decks their minions are unlikely to gain value as what's the point of an Abusive Sergeant if it can't allow your small minions to trade up into bigger ones when there are no minions being played from the other side.
Anyway don't take my word for it, just listen to World Champion Firebat on Zoolock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ju3I42jItw
I can write an essay on this but I will keep it brief.
*Large selection of 1 drops: Zoo historically has the highest selection of 1 drops in the game. And every 1 drop does a different thing and is better in different match ups. Zoolock is one of the few decks where you would purposely mulligan AWAY specific 1 drops to get better chance of getting a different 1 drop. Like I would mulligan away Flame Imp in order to increase my chances of getting a Possessed Villager against a Warrior (especially if I am anticipating Control Warrior).
1 drops are also more skillful in general because you can use them whenever (some you don't like Abusive Sergeant) which means knowing when to play which 1 drop and when not to play the 1 drop is a big deal on why this is a hard deck to play. Most average Zoo players will vomit their 1 drops on the board then come on forums to complain that their 1 drops got board cleared because that Priest got a lucky top deck board clear.
*Zoolock still remains probably the only deck where position matters. It also has token generation or deathrattle generations. You have to position your 1 drops WELL in advance... not just to set up for Direwolfs and Defender of Argus but to anticipate their drops. For example, I have Flame Imp, Possessed Villager and Voidwalker in hand against a Rogue. I am anticipating that Rogue will play Tomb Pillager on turn 4. I would play Voidwalker far left, Flame Imp in the middle and Possessed Villager on far right. This way if he plays 2 HP minion, I can play Direwolf on Possessed Villager and still have a buffed minion on the right (while buffing Flame Imp to 4 for more face damage). If he plays Tomb Pillager, I send the buffed Flame Imp to is face.. then I get the buffed Void Walker at 2 AND the buffed Possessed Villager to face for more damage.
If this position had been messed up I would've lost out on percentages long term. This impacts Defender of Argus even more as I would want to taunt up specific minions, usually not Flame Imp, Direwolf or Void Walker but rather Possessed Villager and Argent Squire so I would position those minions together and the other minions away from these two. These position considerations have to be made starting turn 1 even when you don't have Defender of Argus because of reason #3.
3) Always have access to draw. This is the defining trait that separates Zoolock from regular aggro or curve decks. Zoolock can slow roll match ups. A Zoolock player can forego tempo for a draw to prolong threat generation. This is not a choice that other decks have and because this choice exists, it makes this deck harder to play. To tap or not to tap... that is the question. Most Zoo players will just dump their hands, go face or trade then start tapping when their hand/board is empty. When in fact you want to be tapping even earlier than that to get better plays in certain match ups. Sometimes you don't have lethal on board or from and but you can risk tapping for a chance to draw that PO for lethal. Most players will not even think of it and would instead choose to spend their mana on their hand. When you are playing not only from your hand but from your deck, that makes play making difficult. Every loss you come across you could have always thought to yourself "what if I had tapped and gotten the card I wanted earlier". Drawing against other aggro decks is also very difficult especially against Face Hunter because you might life tap too much and put yourself within burn range.
4) Zoolock more than most deck is more mindful of what the other person is playing and more specifically what minions they are playing. A Pirate Warrior or a Face Hunter is not going to care that you played a 3 HP minion vs a 4 HP minion (unless they have some devastating text), their plays are hardly altered. For a Zoolock it matters a lot because they have to anticipate the minion in advance and set up a board of 1 drops to trade up into it. Zoolock is just in general more board interactive and more fundamental based but the switch from board control to all face is more nuanced than in other decks. This is doubly true when dealing against board clears. Pirate Warrior and Face Hunter do not care their boards got wiped because they play charge minions that hit face or buff their weapons... they got the intended value already. For Zoolock board clears are much more devastating as against control decks their minions are unlikely to gain value as what's the point of an Abusive Sergeant if it can't allow your small minions to trade up into bigger ones when there are no minions being played from the other side.
Anyway don't take my word for it, just listen to World Champion Firebat on Zoolock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ju3I42jItw
It's unlikely that a control snob will ever be convinced that an aggro deck does take skill to pilot--it's practical a religious belief.
I used to be a control snob who thought that all aggro, midrange and combo was just drawing cards and vomiting hand until you win. I'm sure if you go back far enough in my post history you'll find me parroting the doctrines of that faith "more turns = more decisions = more skill", "those decks just pick whatever card is green and play it", "combo doesn't take skill -- you draw your whole deck and then you just win, how stupid", "why can't there ever be a control meta where games are decided by skill".
I think the first step of realizing that mindset was holding me back was reading Sirlin's article "Playing to Win".
Giving myself permission to learn how to play aggro really expanded my understanding of the game. I'm still not a top tier player, but I did go from someone who struggled to hit rank 10 to someone who routinely hits rank 5+, and I've done with aggro, midrange and control (and combo, if Razakus Priest counts).
I used to be a control snob who thought that all aggro, midrange and combo was just drawing cards and vomiting hand until you win. I'm sure if you go back far enough in my post history you'll find me parroting the doctrines of that faith "more turns = more decisions = more skill", "those decks just pick whatever card is green and play it", "combo doesn't take skill -- you draw your whole deck and then you just win, how stupid", "why can't there ever be a control meta where games are decided by skill".
I think the first step of realizing that mindset was holding me back was reading Sirlin's article "Playing to Win".
Giving myself permission to learn how to play aggro really expanded my understanding of the game. I'm still not a top tier player, but I did go from someone who struggled to hit rank 10 to someone who routinely hits rank 5+, and I've done with aggro, midrange and control (and combo, if Razakus Priest counts).
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Playing rogue w/o auctioneer is weird.
SonicXtreme
Member
zoolock is easy to pick up but the little things to master it are very important. versus like pirate warrior, it's easy to pick up but the little things are not as in depth and it's easier to really get the full potential and unlock those last few win % points an expert would, but in zoolock the win % points to gain are more intricate. how some ppl here can't get rank 10 with PW with that i have no idea why, i'll just say probably have a substitution heavy list or are taking a sample size of a dozen or two games too hard instead of just playing it out. that shit is boring as hell but it works if you grind it.
Karsticles
Member
I could have worded that sentence better - I didn't mean to insinuate that every single decision has to be right. My general point was that in aggro right now, you curve out over 5 turns while going face and win, and a LOT of matches play out like that. There isn't any decision-making involved beyond the obvious aspects of how you play the deck.
getting to make more decisions doesn't mean all the prior decisions were right. Making wrong plays doesn't lose control the game automatically because control decks have access to huge haymakers in the lategame.
Specifically against aggro the amount of decisions it takes you to win are low because at a point where you can do lots of things, that don't involve spinning the wheels, the aggro player already lost.
I read guides, too. I might be a bit biased on this because Zoolock was the first deck I ever tried to pilot, and so a lot of learning "the deck" was also learning "the game" for me, and I came to group them together unfairly.
You're right, I shouldn't generalize over the entirety of Hearthstone. I was primarily thinking about the current state of Hearthstone aggro. Zoolock was difficult to pilot. I can't comment much on Mech Mage because it wasn't in vogue when I started playing.
I'm mostly thinking about the "I win" bullshit I see a lot now, and it's clouding my overall judgment:
Turn 1 Fledgling
Turn 2 Ship's Cannon + 2 Pirates
Living Mana - have a clear or die.
This kind of stuff really gets under my skin. How did my opponent outplay me? All my opponent did was start with an unbeatable opening hand. I'm fucked.
You're right, I had forgotten about some factors because Zoo has been out of play for so long. I gladly concede the point.
Except for last month, I've hit rank 5 using aggro nearly every month for the last year. lol