Yeesh, they even nerfed the typesetting for some of the effects. They're just randomly changing the line breaks for the worse.
Pretty sure they mean the combo keyword.
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Hearthstone |OT9| Our raid wiped in Icecrown Citadel
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
People were already running mire keeper and innervate.
not all of them, and I do mention its can be also other heavier card
most good jade druid player already mulligan vate away if they know opponent is not aggro
This is probably for the best.Sounds like Ice Block will be going to the Hall of Fame next year.
To be fair, FWA is what made that card garbage in comparison. 3 mana 3/2 weapons have often found a place in hunter and paladin decks just for being 3/2 weapons.
Rallying Blade and Eaglehorn bow have text. FWA does not. That's bullshit. Especially when weapons are a warrior class identity, and now they have the WORST 3 mana 3/2 weapon?
Even Rogue gets Shadowblade, which is strictly better than FWA.
ROGUE!
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Rallying Blade and Eaglehorn bow have text. FWA does not. That's bullshit. Especially when weapons are a warrior class identity, and now they have the WORST 3 mana 3/2 weapon?
I mean they've seen competitive play in decks with literally no divine shields and no secrets, where there is practically no text.
War Axe: Win Axe forever rest in peace. I do not like this change at all. This is clearly a bad response to fixing Pirate Warriors when everyone knows what the real problem is. So now Pirate Warriors are nerfed but this nerfs every other Warrior deck as well especially Control Warrior decks which are in a rough spot at the moment.
Blizzard has such a strange justification for this. I get it that large groups of people are incompetent, but this shouldn't be that difficult to comprehend. Vast majority of people will figure it out after using the axe once or twice.
Also strange that they had just finished discussing importance of class identity to their game design vis a vis Priest and Shaman, then in the very same breath take the best weapon from the class with weapons as their identity. Mind blowing.
I hate playing pirate warrior, I hate playing against Pirate Warrior, but this wasn't the line to take.
The other option we considered for Fiery War Axe was to lower its attack to 2, but that change didnt feel intuitive enough. Generally, changing the mana cost of a card is less disruptive, because you can always see the mana cost of cards in your hand.
Priest remains untouched, probably tier 1 now.
Dream come true.
slightconfuse
Banned
Lol the note at the end of the article all but confirms Ice Block will be HOFd
Fireball has to be next on the list.
Now that every single holy grail card has been changed, that's next.
Frostbolt also, IMO. Fireball and Frostbolt have been in every Mage deck since always.
FWA is now worse than this garbage TGT card.
But fwa is a basic card (emphasis on basic) and I'm glad we don't have to see win axe in every warrior deck, no matter what archetype, for the rest of hs eternity. I've played a 3 mana 3/2 weapon in hunter and pally decks with no synergy just fine so it's not like it's unplayable. It's just not an auto include anymore, which is the goal when it comes to nerfs with basic and classic cards. Maybe they could have changed it differently but it's a suitable nerf imo.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
You need to empty your hand for UI anyway innervate is still going to be run just the same.
I don't like a lot of these nerfs (FWA and hex mainly), and I think it leaves priest's window too wide open to dominate. That said, I'm glad they are doing something rather than shivering in fear. I think Jade druid is still going to be strong, which is surprising considering blizzard usually tries to destroy something when they nerf. Thanks Blizz, lets see how this shakes out.
It's time for the priest meta. Honestly, Razakus was doing okay before. Now it's going to be godly.
Innervate change makes Druid less rampy, but I don't really see people playing innervate very much anymore. It's a coin without the upside that rogue has with cantrips -- so, it goes from a must have to very situational. I honestly think it hurts aggro druid more than it does jade / big druid. Often innervate is used in Aggro to cast board wide buffs and this change makes it not worth it to run anymore, IMO.
War Axe change -- why? I understand that War Axe with Upgrade! or some other weapon buff was pretty annoying in PW. But, War axe is also the only tool that warrior really has to deal with early game aggression. Don't really like the change at all, and I hate playing control warrior of any type so...
Hex -- again, why? This just makes Shaman weaker to big minions (like Obsidian Statue). With Big Priest on the rise I really don't see any reason to change hex -- at all. I don't think this has a huge impact, but I don't really see the need to adjust shaman very much right now. A lot of shaman's strengths have been naturally countered by this expansion, it's very hard to have a large board of small minions that gradually build up in power over time simply because of what's being run out there.
Warleader -- long time coming. War leader has been adjusted more than once because of it's kinda silly interactions. Murlocs were always means to be not very sticky minions, it seems silly to have too many cards that buff their health. Megasaur and the other one (+2 health battlecry) is enough.
Spreading plague -- Good change, and needed. 'nuff said.
UI should have been adjusted too, but I guess maybe it'll be fine once the meta settles. I already anticipate UI being less prevalent once all the ramp Druid has rotates out, and they are left with Wild Growth.
Been playing wild since the reset and managed to get up to Rank 5 already, playing Wild Razakus exclusively. The age of priest is already here (in wild) and I think this will solidify it in standard.
Innervate change makes Druid less rampy, but I don't really see people playing innervate very much anymore. It's a coin without the upside that rogue has with cantrips -- so, it goes from a must have to very situational. I honestly think it hurts aggro druid more than it does jade / big druid. Often innervate is used in Aggro to cast board wide buffs and this change makes it not worth it to run anymore, IMO.
War Axe change -- why? I understand that War Axe with Upgrade! or some other weapon buff was pretty annoying in PW. But, War axe is also the only tool that warrior really has to deal with early game aggression. Don't really like the change at all, and I hate playing control warrior of any type so...
Hex -- again, why? This just makes Shaman weaker to big minions (like Obsidian Statue). With Big Priest on the rise I really don't see any reason to change hex -- at all. I don't think this has a huge impact, but I don't really see the need to adjust shaman very much right now. A lot of shaman's strengths have been naturally countered by this expansion, it's very hard to have a large board of small minions that gradually build up in power over time simply because of what's being run out there.
Warleader -- long time coming. War leader has been adjusted more than once because of it's kinda silly interactions. Murlocs were always means to be not very sticky minions, it seems silly to have too many cards that buff their health. Megasaur and the other one (+2 health battlecry) is enough.
Spreading plague -- Good change, and needed. 'nuff said.
UI should have been adjusted too, but I guess maybe it'll be fine once the meta settles. I already anticipate UI being less prevalent once all the ramp Druid has rotates out, and they are left with Wild Growth.
Been playing wild since the reset and managed to get up to Rank 5 already, playing Wild Razakus exclusively. The age of priest is already here (in wild) and I think this will solidify it in standard.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Posting some snippets from their blog post:
We are also trying to limit Hall of Fame changes to the start of each Hearthstone Year, which is why Murloc Warleader—a Classic card—is receiving a balance change instead of moving to the Hall of Fame.
We considered a few other options for Innervate:
Refresh 2 Mana Crystals.
Gain 2 Mana Crystals this turn only and increase the mana cost to 1.
Gain 6 Mana Crystals this turn only and increase the mana cost to 4.
What other changes did we consider [for Fiery War Axe]?
The other option we considered for Fiery War Axe was to lower its attack to 2, but that change didn't feel intuitive enough. Generally, changing the mana cost of a card is less disruptive, because you can always see the mana cost of cards in your hand.
[Hex]
We are very wary of cards that also incidentally work as a silence. If a player wants to utilize a card with a silence effect, they should be giving up something else. For example, if a player decides to include Spellbreaker in their deck, then they are playing a card that is weak in some situations. Priest is an exception to this rule—silence is a part of their class identity.
What other changes did you consider [for Murloc Warleader]?
We considered changing both Rockpool Hunter and Murloc Warleader due to the current strength of Murloc Paladin in the early stages of the game. Changing either Rockpool Hunter or Murloc Warleader would accomplish this, but there are extra advantages to changing just Murloc Warleader: The simplification of health-giving buffs and additional room for future Murlocs since Warleader will be around longer than Rockpool Hunter.
What other changes did you consider [for Spreading Plague]?
We considered changing Spreading Plague to 7 mana rather than 6, since it is currently the top performing card in Jade and Taunt Druid decks. However, since we are also changing Innervate, we decided to only add 1 mana to the cost of Spreading Plague.
Ultimate Infestation
We considered changing all mentions of the number 5 in Ultimate Infestation to 4, or removing one of the effects entirely. With the other changes we are making to Druid, ramping out Ultimate Infestation before turn 10 should happen less often, so we decided to leave it as is.
Ice Block
We've seen discussions about moving Ice Block to the Hall of Fame. As previously mentioned, moving cards to the Hall of Fame occurs at the start of the Hearthstone Year, which will occur with the first expansion release in 2018.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I'm a little sad they're getting rid of Murloc Warleader. That card was the identity of Murlocs even back when murlocs were bad. It's that dumb Un'Goro card Gental Megasaur that put it over the top, and I don't want that to be the identity of murlocs even in wild forever because it's a dumb RNG card.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
FWA needed a change, but the change we got sucks.
The problem is any of the other big changes were rule changing big like only being able to attack minions or something.
Mixed on innervate.
A lot of problems come from balancing the game as a whole vs fixing some shit that might be OP against certain matchups.
Also feels like Blizzard was like yo we here you on certain cards, but we aren't gonna rotate out mid season.
So start your countdown timer now till the next rotation if you're a fan of OP Mage secrets.
The problem is any of the other big changes were rule changing big like only being able to attack minions or something.
Mixed on innervate.
A lot of problems come from balancing the game as a whole vs fixing some shit that might be OP against certain matchups.
Also feels like Blizzard was like yo we here you on certain cards, but we aren't gonna rotate out mid season.
So start your countdown timer now till the next rotation if you're a fan of OP Mage secrets.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Wish they would have addressed Raza
welcome to paladin before our lord and saviour Hydrologist.
Shocked that Hex got touched before Prep.
Shocked that FWA got dumpstered. I guess Warrior is truly just an aggro class. What does slow warr play t2? Doomsayer or Armorsmith? FML
welcome to paladin before our lord and saviour Hydrologist.
The more I think about FWA nerfs, the worse I feel.
that nerf was uncalled. Warrior need an above average weapon. are they going to reduce the class identity to only armor?
unless they plan to make on later expansions a 2 mana 3/2 weapon to have warrior have the weapon, just not in very standard meta ever.
that nerf was uncalled. Warrior need an above average weapon. are they going to reduce the class identity to only armor?
unless they plan to make on later expansions a 2 mana 3/2 weapon to have warrior have the weapon, just not in very standard meta ever.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
FWA nerf was a long time coming.
I wonder if Zoolock vs. Jade Druid is a winning matchup with no turn three Spreading Plagues. Will certainly go better, at the least.
How about anti-aggro Handlock vs. newly-nerfed Pirate Warrior? How many other aggro decks will there even be, though... maybe I should make my Handlock deck more anti-control for the Priests. Decisions.
How about anti-aggro Handlock vs. newly-nerfed Pirate Warrior? How many other aggro decks will there even be, though... maybe I should make my Handlock deck more anti-control for the Priests. Decisions.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Shocked that Hex got touched before Prep.
Shocked that FWA got dumpstered. I guess Warrior is truly just an aggro class. What does slow warr play t2? Doomsayer or Armorsmith? FML
It'd be a weird timing for it with HCT Summer Europe playoffs only seeing one rogue deck. The predictions of Rogues death seemed to finally be right for once.
Maybe at the rotation we'll see something about it and ice block.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
MY FUCKING WAR AXE
Ivan A Nguyen
Member
Here's my perspective from playing big priest last season. Innervate is what made IU such a broken card. I can't count the number of times I'd have an 8 health minion reduced to nothing because UI was chained with Innervate and wrath or the DK druid hero power. It's what made it safe to play UI in a hand of 6 cards. If you were holding wrath and innervate then you know you could dump 2 cards from your hand in the same play. It took all the risk of over drawing out of the turn. UI on turn 6 was ugly. UI on turn 8 as well, but people should be able to handle UI by turn 8 if it's only doing 5 damage and putting a 5/5 on the board.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
YES
THEY NERFED WARRIOR SHAMAN AND MURLOCS
HAHAHAHHAHA
LET THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE BEGIN
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
What am I supposed to do against little shit 1/3s that become 15/3s by turn 3 as warrior? Concede?
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
YES
THEY NERFED WARRIOR SHAMAN AND MURLOCS
HAHAHAHHAHA
LET THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE BEGIN
It's not collateral damage, those changes needed to happen too. I think you've been so focused on defending druid you missed the spots where people talked about nerfing other cards. FWA is something I was in support of for over a year now.
What is the point of having a classic set if it does not provide stability to the class? Fiery War Axe is a building block for Warrior that matches their hero power to provide a path through the early game where the Warrior can trade health for board control. Something being "auto include" is not inherently bad if it serves as the differentiating factor for the class. There are numerous problems introduced by changes that target the foundation of a class like this. We have already seen that Blizzard is incapable of adequately filling in gaps for classes with their expansion sets. Without FWA suddenly there is a necessity for strong early game tools to be added to Warrior regularly as cards rotate in and out, and the tools that Blizzard adds are less often general purpose and more often focused on creating specific archetypes. If those archetypes do not cut it and there is no set of base cards to support a class they are basically just up a creek without a paddle. It also sets an inconsistent precedent with other cards like Mana Wyrm, Frostbolt, Backstab/Evis, etc. This line of thinking expanded out past low mana cost cards asks why Classic/Basic cards exist at all. Is it okay for Tirion, Blizzard, Antonidas, Vancleef to be ubiquitous? Mage is built on its access to cards that have always been in the game like Fireball, Arcane Intellect, Ice Block, Sorcerer's Apprentice, and Frost Nova. Doomsayer is a staple of many control decks across almost all classes. Should that be severely nerfed?But fwa is a basic card (emphasis on basic) and I'm glad we don't have to see win axe in every warrior deck, no matter what archetype, for the rest of hs eternity. I've played a 3 mana 3/2 weapon in hunter and pally decks with no synergy just fine so it's not like it's unplayable. It's just not an auto include anymore, which is the goal when it comes to nerfs with basic and classic cards. Maybe they could have changed it differently but it's a suitable nerf imo.
There is not really any consistent logic or reasoning to how Blizzard operates. If Pirate Warrior is a problem there are tools being used specifically in that deck that could be attacked instead of severely hindering the potential for any type of control Warrior to be played for the history of the game going forward.
Is anyone else disturbed that the time of the year that something needs nerfing has this big of an impact on what kind of adjustment it gets?
Mid-season nerfs are just as disruptive as mid-season HoFing. If something is better off HoF'd, just send it over.
I'm normally pretty optimistic about card changes, but I'm losing faith in this team fast. Given their comments around the launch of FT, I'm afraid they just aren't taking balance seriously enough.
Mid-season nerfs are just as disruptive as mid-season HoFing. If something is better off HoF'd, just send it over.
I'm normally pretty optimistic about card changes, but I'm losing faith in this team fast. Given their comments around the launch of FT, I'm afraid they just aren't taking balance seriously enough.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
It's not collateral damage, those changes needed to happen too. I think you've been so focused on defending druid you missed the spots where people talked about nerfing other cards. FWA is something I was in support of for over a year now.
Yes Im sorry for the outburst
veryslowhand
Banned
Is the warlock DK getting better with the druid nerf? or dosen't matter for it, I kind of want to craft it but I'm undecided.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Is the warlock DK getting better with the druid nerf? or dosen't matter for it, I kind of want to craft it but I'm undecided.
With the aggro nerfs, I am sure it gets better.
bangbang i'm a timpani
Banned
they didn't touch jade idol? Is this a joke?
Now that I think about it, I can't believe they said they're worried about making Innervate unintuitive for new players, when they still haven't changed its text to mention that it gives you a 0-mana card draw when you're at 10 mana.
"Unintuitive" and "confusing" explanations are never worth their salt, considering the sheer number of random, undocumented changes they like making with patches. As if there's nothing confusing about the Naga Sea Witch thing randomly being changed and taking over Wild.
Weapons should always outclass 2 removals, that's the whole point of weapons.I mean its kinda made sense no 2 mana weapon should've outclass 2 mana removal spell, but still
I guess at least pirate warr is like 10% weaker
but still..
You pay with your life for the removal ability. The issue has and always will be the ability of weapons to point to face which was the main point why it got nerfed to begin with.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
"Unintuitive" and "confusing" explanations are never worth their salt, considering the sheer number of random, undocumented changes they like making with patches. As if there's nothing confusing about the Naga Sea Witch thing randomly being changed and taking over Wild.
Yeah, that was extremely confusing when I first saw it in wild. Made me question why the hell that card wasn't popular in standard if that's how it works, and thought it must just be too inconsistant if it couldn't make the cut in standard until i lost to it like 3 more times.
It's insane that change was not included in the patch notes. How do they keep new players from being confused if they confuse the hell out of veteran players
Innervate literally being Counterfeit Coin bothers me a lot.
War Axe change is a long time coming but...also is kinda fucked. Now it's just straight up worse than weapons in every other class, in a class known for weapons. This hurts warrior across the board a lot, not just Pirate (NERF PATCHES FOR FUCKS SAKE)
Spreading Plauge was a bigger issues than UI, and 1 extra mana is still a big blow, but I think that card is still fine. Will hurt it in the matchups that really matter, but this is still a huge weakness cover for Druid.
Glad the Warleader changed happened, that shit got way too snowbally and I'm sure if you looked at murloc deck winrates, there's a massive spike if warleader hits the board early enough. Of course, some Priest cards sound similar to that...
Hex change is whatever, puts it inline with Polymorph which is fine.
War Axe change is a long time coming but...also is kinda fucked. Now it's just straight up worse than weapons in every other class, in a class known for weapons. This hurts warrior across the board a lot, not just Pirate (NERF PATCHES FOR FUCKS SAKE)
Spreading Plauge was a bigger issues than UI, and 1 extra mana is still a big blow, but I think that card is still fine. Will hurt it in the matchups that really matter, but this is still a huge weakness cover for Druid.
Glad the Warleader changed happened, that shit got way too snowbally and I'm sure if you looked at murloc deck winrates, there's a massive spike if warleader hits the board early enough. Of course, some Priest cards sound similar to that...
Hex change is whatever, puts it inline with Polymorph which is fine.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Innervate literally being Counterfeit Coin bothers me a lot.
tbf Hex just became Polymorph
it's fine for classes to have similar cards?
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I think taunt is better than 1 attack on a 1 hp body.
Wait, this Warleader change...actually makes Arthas a lot harder to get. LOL
Murloc the Lich King while you can.
Hex is still different, taunt/no attack was always a big difference. The taunt forces a hit but the token also can't attack at all.
The effects are really similar though, yeah.
Murloc the Lich King while you can.
tbf Hex just became Polymorph
it's fine for classes to have similar cards?
Hex is still different, taunt/no attack was always a big difference. The taunt forces a hit but the token also can't attack at all.
The effects are really similar though, yeah.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I just got the quest "Overpowered: Play 10 cards that cost 8 or more."
Pretty apt name for that quest right now.
Pretty apt name for that quest right now.