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Hearthstone |OT9| Our raid wiped in Icecrown Citadel
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
SuperSonic1305
Member
I fucking hate this game so much. Every fucking player has the exact counter they need for my every move and why the fuck after 3 years do I still get the same card back from a mulligan.
I don't know about that. Pirate warrior was terrible for the deck but beside that you're not beating many things right now and even less things in this next meta imo. The deck is not good against Raza priest. There will be less reasons to play that deck after these changes actually. The main reason the deck was a thing to begin with was because of druid.
The deck was fairly strong against token druid with frost nova doom and blizzard and other similar decks but that might not be relevant anymore. You get rekt by rogue and priest and those two classes benefit the most from these nerfs and will be tier 1 for sure.
If anything people will just go back to Un'goro burn mage decks. Those will be fine now that jade druid is less common.
I think Jaina just got benched for now.
I think I'm generally on board with the nerfs but what in the world were they thinking with Innervate and War Axe? That's some clumsy ass reasoning.
I like that both Aggro and Jade Druid should stay playable, but nowhere near as dominant and no more surprise Infestations and really early Plagues. Ladder seems even more full of them than usual, everyone trying to get the most of it while they can I suppose. Knew someone would get nerfed to the dumpster, surprised it was Warrior. Shaman nerf was fair. Murlocs are still very viable and aggressive just not as hard to board clear. Mages should be worried about next rotation. Fuck Priest. Bring back Hunter.
I like that both Aggro and Jade Druid should stay playable, but nowhere near as dominant and no more surprise Infestations and really early Plagues. Ladder seems even more full of them than usual, everyone trying to get the most of it while they can I suppose. Knew someone would get nerfed to the dumpster, surprised it was Warrior. Shaman nerf was fair. Murlocs are still very viable and aggressive just not as hard to board clear. Mages should be worried about next rotation. Fuck Priest. Bring back Hunter.
mysteriousmage09
Member
If they are so damn upset about classic cards being used than they need to change how they handle expansions in this game. Adding a measly amount of cards that's spread across 9 classes and then wondering why the majority of cards in decks are from the classic set still? Gee I fucking wonder why. At most 2 or 3 new cards per type of deck are added and that's it. There are no tools to do anything else with how the game is setup and Blizzard is beyond stupid for not seeing that. So instead of actually realizing that's the issue, they decide to go ahead and ruin classic cards instead. Brilliant.
The Control Warrior response is horrible. Control Warrior is basically unplayable shit right now in standard, makes a statement that Control Warrior needs new cards, which they didn't provide this expansion, and questions if it's fun to play the same cards every year... Well, I would like to actually have Control Warrior as an actual, viable deck and if that means using many of the same cards to do so, then so be it. Beats it not existing at all.
Then he goes on to make a comparison about Zoolock and links to a deck literally saying how Zoolock is struggling to remain relevant.....
You can't make this shit up....
"The cards are mostly different than 2 years ago and the archetype has has dropped from tier 1 to tier 5 but look at the change!"
The fucking site he used to make a point lists Zoolock as fucking tier 5.....
All I see is an archetype that was once dominant, now a shadow. Good job Brode.
Also love the complete ignoring of the fuck up that is the Jade mechanic as well as the reasoning given for the Fiery War Axe nerf being "dumb fucks that play our game can't read anything but the mana cost of cards but at least know 3 is a bigger number than 2!". So nobody looks at the cards, just the shiny gem in the upper left of them. Guess that is the thought process of Pirate Warrior players but still, give me a break.
Quality insight showing they have literally learned nothing over the years.
They should've taken kiblers original advice and moved all of classic to wild if they're just going to do this.
I'm a little concerned blizzard focuses too much on cards independantly. They look at stats of win rates & popularity but cards don't exist in a vacuum. When you have certain combinations of cards they collectively might give a higher win % than individually. One big problem with jade druid is all the ramp and all the card draw options together. Basically takes away the downside of ramping cause you can play threats and continue to draw.
Also these win % numbers mainly take into account the most popular decks and not the fact that jade druid itself is suppressing a lot of decks. Maybe that's true of top decks in the past too and I'm biased cause I like to play control.
Honestly it feels like they don't play the very game they're designing enough and are too focused on the next set. Sure we may get a warrior 2 drop next set but wtf do you do til then?
They're doing that now just chunk by chunk. Honestly after next round of hall of fame, there is probably not many relevant ever green cards left in the classic. It's already almost there. Take auctioneer and iceblock and it's pretty much done. The other cards are hardly ever green and rely on some other cards existing to work. They come and go. That's fine. Unless you want to get rid of stuff like acolyte of pain and similar which I don't see the point. They don't make a specific deck. They're just tools and having those type of cards in the core set is fine.
The problem with control mage is that it just really is too slow right now. Frost Lich Jaina's power is pretty incredible (probably top 3 in terms of DK power) but no amount 3/6 water elemental can compare to jade druid vomit, for example. It's reliance on minions as it's primary finisher is pretty antithetical to Mage's current playstyle.
That being said it sure is popular among the streamers I check out. Strifecro loves it, Hotform loves it, Navi loves it. Maybe it'll be willed into viability through sheer force of will.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I opened a Lyra from a pack, so I guess it's time to Highlander Priest. RIP Ozruk and Cho'Gall and a few bad epics for getting turned into Shadowreaper Anduin. I can't imagine those ever being even meme worthy.
Playing priest feels so wierd. I don't know when to play any of these cards, especially for trying to save certain stuff for lyra or shadowreaper anduin.
Playing priest feels so wierd. I don't know when to play any of these cards, especially for trying to save certain stuff for lyra or shadowreaper anduin.
Professor Lich
Member
Anyone know why some Hunters are running Infest? Only seen it a handful of times, so maybe it was just a coincidence, just wondering if there was a streamer deck or something that popularized it.
????????????????????
So make those cards. The only "constant change" for Hearthstone is decks types being gutted and replaced with nothing. The onus falls on Blizzard to make new types of cards that people want to use that are actually viable. Change for the sake of change is not some noble goal and the state of Warlock and Hunter speak to the issues that arise when classes do not have a solid foundation to rely upon with Basic/Classic cards.
Worse yet, instead of appropriately retiring these cards by Hall of Faming them they have conflated their nerfs to new cards with their desire to reduce the presence of certain classic cards. And for whatever reason classes almost entirely propped up by older cards like Mage and Rogue have gone untouched. And what a dangerous road it is to go down removing basic tools from the classes when they show such little interest in assuring classes have something like solid removal.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I don't know but I'd bet it was StrifeCro. That guy loves infest.
Professor Lich
Member
Interesting. I'll have to do some poking around online when I get the chance. I'm running a terrible Deathrattle Hunter deck and I'm curious if that's a card I should be thinking about. Probably not, since I don't vomit minions on the board like a normal Hunter deck, but I'm curious.
cartographer
Member
Rogue untouched? Rogue is probably the best example of your first paragraph. Blade Flurry is one of the most impactful class-specific nerfs in the game's history.
Do you want rogue even more nerfed? what else is left to nerf lol? They will remove Auctioneer and that will be the end of it.
Rogue plays a lot of new cards actually and older ones like sap were removed in favor of new slayer. Removing Azure Drake had the most impact on rogue, that might as well be a rogue nerf. Basically almost every minion beside auctioneer/edwin that rogue plays is a new card. Even SI7 isn't played much any more.
Rogue plays a lot of new cards actually and older ones like sap were removed in favor of new slayer. Removing Azure Drake had the most impact on rogue, that might as well be a rogue nerf. Basically almost every minion beside auctioneer/edwin that rogue plays is a new card. Even SI7 isn't played much any more.
mysteriousmage09
Member
Yep. Again with the Zoolock comparison Brode himself used, just look at the astronomical difference in card quality. People didn't switch over to the newer cards because they were well designed and worthy replacements. They did so because it's the only shit left to fill the void they created when they started on the whole cycling cards out bandwagon. It's also why Zoolock has gone from S tier to bottom barrel trash. It's the same with Control Warrior. I called it when TGT and LoE cycled out that Control Warrior was as good as dead. The doubling of battlecries from Bran and the Tank Up hero power from Justicar have had nothing remotely close to a worthy replacement. You are forced to throw in whatever new shit they added instead and hope that they didn't bring forth a meta in which the archetype in question doesn't get shit on left and right.
Karsticles
Member
But Dog hit top 100 legend last month with Dead Man's Hand Fatigue Warrior.
Obviously talking about the patch they just announced................
They complain about people using too many Basic/Classic cards but something like Rogue still sees its greatest representation from Miracle decks that revolve around the same base set of cards/combos. My point is not that these classes need to be nerfed, just that there is no consistency to the logic of targeting cards just because they have been around forever.
cartographer
Member
There's the understood part there that there have to be other reasons for the nerfs, too, which they explained in their blog post.
How often should rogue be hit? They HoF'd conceal earlier this year. They nuked Blade Flurry last year. If anything it's an example of them carrying out that very practice when you see them losing a core classic tool two straight years in a row.
Honestly the weirdest class to try to make a point with. Mage makes sense, but come on.
Hmm.. I had it wrong all this time. I seriously thought their intention was to keep Classic as the base for everything + a few from latest expansion and bits and bobs from previous. I've been buying classic packs only, and it's worked great so far.
Also, given Blizzard's love for jade things, I wouldn't be surprised if it survived the rotation and was moved to classic instead
This is not a discussion of which classes need nerfs. Rogue is simply an example of a class that heavily relies on Basic/Classic cards in order to find a playstyle similar to one that has defined it since early in Hearthstone's life. The goal has been clearly stated. Classic/Basic cards have been identified as being too abundant in decks. Blizzard wants players to buy more packs and only use the meager amount of new underpowered cards they release.
And not that it was my point, or that I even want Rogue nerfs, but they are not some kind of persecuted class that is always the only one under the gun. Conceal was HoF'd but the October patch for 2016 tried to target Shaman and hit base Warrior cards like Execute and Charge.
cartographer
Member
I never said they were some persecuted class. You are the only that singled them out (along with mage) as somehow escaping the gun when they get hit with regularity. From the same sets Blizzard mentioned. And they are likely to get hit again with rotation as prep is always on their mind and Gadget is, too.
Like, you realize how silly your argument is that rogue is going untouched for using too many basic / classic cards is right? They are regularly taking them anyway.
edit: I guess to make it short: did they need to get hit with something this very day for that relying on too many classic / basic cards thing to ring more true? Despite the established trend of that happening on other days?
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
The intention seems to be to force you to craft as many new legendaries and epics as possible. Can't do that if over half of every deck is basic and classic cards.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Fiery Lose Axe
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Don't worry about Fiery War Axe guys, they will surely print some broken shit next expansion.
1 mana 1/3 weapon - If you have armor, gain +2 attack
1 Mana 1/1 Minion - Gain 2 armor
We back!
1 mana 1/3 weapon - If you have armor, gain +2 attack
1 Mana 1/1 Minion - Gain 2 armor
We back!
This is is not a call for unilateral nerfs to Classic/Basic cards, but is instead an observation on how many classes still utilize older cards in order to find some kind of solid foundation when the new cards handed to them are not playable. Rogue in particular was used as an example because they maybe tread furthest into neutral Basic/Classic cards with things like Thalnos, Questing Adventurer, and Auctioneer.
I am directly speaking against the toolset provided by Basic/Classic cards being taken away, particularly when it is used for removal:
There is something intensely dissonant about the decision to hit War Axe alone when it is positioned as a necessary removal tool for cards that can scale out of control like Northshire Cleric or Mana Wyrm. This is how the game was intentionally designed from the start and changing only bits and pieces of it around is disruptive in the wrong way. Should Blizzard attempt to remove Doomsayer from the pool because it is seen universally across almost all classes in control variants as one of the best forms of removal? Control decks rely on these Basic/Classic cards and the ideas Blizzard are presenting are an attack on the basic shells that serve thoughtful play in this game.
I'm ok with that tbh. I'd rather see new takes on old decks (like they say) than see the same old cards over and over.
Also, as you state, this turns HS a bit more towards P2W since not as many will get to play with complete decks.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
They have to be a lot more conservative with classes with good classic sets than bad ones. Priest gets a few very good cards every expansion, and still usually doesn't see success, while Rogue gets mostly bad cards every expansion and often still find success. You don't want to see a ton of good new cards that played along side those really good classic cards.
have fun with 90 - 10 matchup in the priest matchup?
nah
Secret mage maybe tier 1 aggro deck tho
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Probably in a week whenever apple's cert feels like putting it out.
He didn't "hit" top 100 Legend with it LMAO!
He hit Legend and high ranks with whatever top tier deck then streamed himself playing Dead Man at rank 100 Legend. That's how it is with the top players and streamers.
Well most of them, some of them do it legit all the way.
That said I am still a fan of that deck, people sleep on it.
Fiery Wack Axe
probably in two week tho, because they waiting their tournament to be played
The player already prepping their lineup, all hell will break loose if blizzard just screwing them
cartographer
Member
It just seems odd to use that class as the example of this not happening when there's an established track record of this very thing happening to that class on a regular basis (and likely to happen in the future given dev comments), seemingly all because they didn't receive a change today.
I'm not entertaining the idea that War Axe's nerf leaves Warrior without important T2 removal because it doesn't. It just makes the absolute best T2 removal a more balanced T3 removal. They have cards more in line with other classes to use on T2, like Heroic Strike, Slam, a number of WW or 1 damage effects etc. Yeah, it sucks compared to War Axe because War Axe has been and is absolutely stupid powerful. Nor do I entertain the idea that a Warrior no longer automatically equipping a War Axe on T2 and instead having to think about equipping it on T3 is some sort of attack on thoughtful play. That's just not true.
For the record, I want a bunch more Classic / basic cards changed. Nuke the shit out of Mana Wyrm. HoF Ice Block. Nerf PW:S. Nerf Prep. But they aren't going to do this all at once, and it's not like today is the start of this. There's been a long pattern of changing or HoFing cards because they were too ubiquitous, and I'm not going to pretend this is some tipping point because War Axe got deservedly hit this time, just `like FoN, BF, Rockbiter, PO etc did. Warrior has one of the best Classic sets. It's going to happen.
Now Mage? Mage does truly seem to escape for reasons I don't understand. But at least it looks like Ice Block is getting HoF'd. Not a minute too soon.
This is my biggest gripe with "steamers" in this game. They play meme stuff 80% of the time (which is fine and has a great place in the game, there is TONS of fun meme decks these days), and then proceed pass it off as though the memes are what got them to legend, when 90% of the time it was playing a shit load of games because they stream 8 hours a day and they played "other stuff for variety" and got 70% win rates with their murloc pally or druid decks in between the memes. Come on dudes... no one should believe their lies, yet somehow people do!
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Ben Brode says it so well...
"Our goal isnt to cripple archetypes. Control Warrior needs control cards, yes, but is it fun to play the same cards every year? Wild is an option for players who want a format with less change, but Standard should be all about change. Wed rather create new and different cards that present new challenges and new options to Control Warrior players."
But he is on r/hs so you get posts like this upvoted
"isn't that the whole point why classic set is evergreen? not only that, basic cards solidify class identity. not a big fan of war axe, innervate, and warleader changes mr brode."
"Translation: we need basic/classic cards to be worse so we can sell more packs as a requirement to make competitive decks."
Like wtf, reddit is so... stupid and people are so cynical when they say shit like they changing cards only so they can sell more.
"Our goal isnt to cripple archetypes. Control Warrior needs control cards, yes, but is it fun to play the same cards every year? Wild is an option for players who want a format with less change, but Standard should be all about change. Wed rather create new and different cards that present new challenges and new options to Control Warrior players."
But he is on r/hs so you get posts like this upvoted
"isn't that the whole point why classic set is evergreen? not only that, basic cards solidify class identity. not a big fan of war axe, innervate, and warleader changes mr brode."
"Translation: we need basic/classic cards to be worse so we can sell more packs as a requirement to make competitive decks."
Like wtf, reddit is so... stupid and people are so cynical when they say shit like they changing cards only so they can sell more.
I think this is really the first time they have gone after class defining cards. Before when they nerfed basic cards it was usually the side basic cards that were just generic removal or damage cards.
Wack Axe and Innervate are class defining cards. They are like the first few cards you get when you level up your character. This has now set a precedent that nothing is sacred anymore in the game.
Wack Axe and Innervate are class defining cards. They are like the first few cards you get when you level up your character. This has now set a precedent that nothing is sacred anymore in the game.
The thing about mage is that it's the beginner class and it's supposed to be very straight forward and it has to be powerful enough so the beginner guy can win some games throwing fireballs. Mage has never been too good but it has never been weak or unplayable or anything like that. It was always tier 2 at minimum. I think their core/classic cards are mostly balanced.
If they change something like fireball for example or arcane intellect and similar, the tutorial breaks. I'm pretty sure you draw fireball on turn 4 in tutorial and you're forced to play it. Something like that or Millhouse plays a fireball when he has 4 mana. I think eventually they redo those stuff completely but right now it breaks the game lol.
In the interview posted today with Mike Donais he says ladder changes will make invested players very happy and Ben Brode said in another interview recently that they're not focused on new player experience right now and want to improve the game for existing players first before they get there. I think it will be awhile before we get there though I imagine top end ladder changes should be coming this year. Probably for Fall HCT season.
edit: yeah reddit is the reason they're not changing cards often. Just look how stupid people are over there and reaction are just wtf. Next time someone talked about why Blizzard is hesitant changing cards just show them those...
If they change something like fireball for example or arcane intellect and similar, the tutorial breaks. I'm pretty sure you draw fireball on turn 4 in tutorial and you're forced to play it. Something like that or Millhouse plays a fireball when he has 4 mana. I think eventually they redo those stuff completely but right now it breaks the game lol.
In the interview posted today with Mike Donais he says ladder changes will make invested players very happy and Ben Brode said in another interview recently that they're not focused on new player experience right now and want to improve the game for existing players first before they get there. I think it will be awhile before we get there though I imagine top end ladder changes should be coming this year. Probably for Fall HCT season.
edit: yeah reddit is the reason they're not changing cards often. Just look how stupid people are over there and reaction are just wtf. Next time someone talked about why Blizzard is hesitant changing cards just show them those...
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Well even fireball is not on the auto-include level of innervate or FWA. Control mages often do not run fireball, we've seen this in several control mage decks throughout the game history. I think we've even seen frostbolt be optional before.
There is also the fact that most of those auto-includes are not always the best cards for those slots. Like what 2 drops is better than FWA? Basically none. It's just about the best 2 drop in the game, for both offense and defense purposes.
How do you get warrior to not run FWA? Print more broken shit? Come on... Lets be realistic. FWA was in a bad place being a basic card that is also one of the best cards in the game. The best solution is unfortunately is to nerf it. But when you look at fireball, it's not nearly as auto-include as FWA is.
Well, I think the FWA nerf was a long time coming. It's actually better now that CW is not a heavily played deck than if they nerfed it while it was a heavily played deck.
There is also the fact that most of those auto-includes are not always the best cards for those slots. Like what 2 drops is better than FWA? Basically none. It's just about the best 2 drop in the game, for both offense and defense purposes.
How do you get warrior to not run FWA? Print more broken shit? Come on... Lets be realistic. FWA was in a bad place being a basic card that is also one of the best cards in the game. The best solution is unfortunately is to nerf it. But when you look at fireball, it's not nearly as auto-include as FWA is.
Well, I think the FWA nerf was a long time coming. It's actually better now that CW is not a heavily played deck than if they nerfed it while it was a heavily played deck.
Here's Ben Brode's response to all this.
If evergreen sets are such a problem, maybe Blizzard shouldn't have them? They should do what they shoulda done in the first place. Create a rebalanced and rotating core set of cards every couple of years.
If evergreen sets are such a problem, maybe Blizzard shouldn't have them? They should do what they shoulda done in the first place. Create a rebalanced and rotating core set of cards every couple of years.
yeah I don't think mage has any auto include cards at the same level as war axe or innervate. It's only maybe frostbolt and that's an identity card that is not too strong. Stuff like arcane intellect are just generic, fair and not worth changing ever.
Remove iceblock and style of mage decks that are played would change a lot. Mage has never been some one trick kind of class like warrior/druid has been for most of their life. They don't really live or die with one card. I'm sure mana wyrm is on its last days too.
We had freeze mage/ mech mage/ tempo mage/ aggro freeze mage/ grinder decks/ giants echo deck and so on. The class really changed every year.
Remove iceblock and style of mage decks that are played would change a lot. Mage has never been some one trick kind of class like warrior/druid has been for most of their life. They don't really live or die with one card. I'm sure mana wyrm is on its last days too.
We had freeze mage/ mech mage/ tempo mage/ aggro freeze mage/ grinder decks/ giants echo deck and so on. The class really changed every year.
BananasWithGuns
Member
It's such a shitty excuse anyway because of how many powerful Classic/Basic cards they're probably never going to touch. Fireball probably isn't ever going to see a nerf. Eviscerate probably isn't ever going to see a nerf. Tirion probably isn't ever going to see a nerf. Power Word: Shield probably isn't ever going to see a nerf.
So why the hell are War Axe and Hex the ones singled out?
So why the hell are War Axe and Hex the ones singled out?
Fireball is the most efficient and powerful direct damage spell in the game. It has seen just as much play as Fiery War Axe and Innervate. You could easily knock a point of damage off or increase it to 5 mana and it would still be a good card.
Karsticles
Member
Creating a mix-and-match set of base cards for Standard would be hilarious. Imagine the salt levels when Dr. Boom comes back from the grave.
"P-piloted Shredder?! What are you doing here?"
"P-piloted Shredder?! What are you doing here?"
Unless there are better ways to earn dust, this seems like it would be very challenging.
If they refunded dust and let you re-buy the new standard/classic cards that could work.
At some point I'm sure they'll have to rework the dust system. These changes just confirmed to me that Team 5 hates the idea of everlasting sets or free sets. Decks will become more expensive for sure.
I think that's the route that we are headed though. If Blizzard doesn't want to rebalance classic completely then the goal should be to rotate in good cards into the classic set. And why not? I mean, these cards have already been proven to be great contributions to the game. I guess you could argue that it's not "fresh" but I dont' buy it. Surely Blizzard could find 2 or 3 replacements for cards per class that see play and swap in 2 or 3 more balanced alternatives. Same goes for neutral cards.
I just think it's silly to ignore the legacy of the game itself in a haphazard attempt to keep on balancing the game around the consumption of new cards. Sure, I like new cards with new effects too. But I don't see a problem with adjusting classic with some better, proven alternatives.