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[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

A fetus doesn't have thoughts and feelings and it's not a person; it's a potential person like semen.

I wonder wife Pro Lifers aren't picketing the bedrooms of teenage boys since masturbation should be considered a murderous act too. I murder a few mill this weekend.

Having no understanding of basic biology isn't something you want to advertise on the internets.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

There is quite a difference between a sperm cell and a fetus so I don't think it's a fair comparison.

And quite a difference between a fetus and a baby that has exited the womb.

 

[Tapiozona]

I'm pro choice but no longer agree with abortion.

This thread surprises me. The number of responses making light of abortion as if the topic deserves chest bumping, caveman jokes is odd. No matter what you think about a woman's right to make the choice this shouldn't devolve into stupid jokes about the baby fighting off the scalpel to earn its life, etc.

I guess I would have responded the same way when I was younger. Abortion is never an easy decision for a mother because no matter how you spin it, you're ending what is or could be the life of a child. My perspectives on abortion changed after I had a child of my own. Probably more so because we struggled to have a child and only after 6 years and multiple cycles of invetro fertilization did we have our first.

I dont expect everyone's opinions on the subject to evolve like mine did but I'm guessing some of you will at least grow up and cut with the stupid jokes one day.

And quite a difference between a fetus and a baby that has exited the womb.

Do you know the differences? You'd be surprised how early in pregnancy a fetus has developed all the things which make you human. Terrible comparison.

 

[hamchan]

Y'know, how can people take away the rights of a woman to choose whether she wants something growing in her or not?

 

[Angry Fork]

I do think the exiting of the vagina being the crossing point is completely arbitrary and doesn't have any moral value. If I were to support an abortion pre-birth that is in it's 6th-9th month there's no discernible moral reason why I shouldn't also be willing to support killing a child after-birth. It's obvious at some point there is an actual baby in the womb and not just a bunch of gooey stuff.

But allowing society to kill post-birth children we don't want sounds obscene and something we would never do for one reason or another, so the vagina point has to be the line. The anti-choice people are partly correct in that there's a baby in the womb at some point, and we on the pro-choice side are choosing to kill it, I'm fine with owning up to that. But we have what I think are superior reasons for why it would be beneficial to do so rather than allow it to come into the world.

However the anti-choice people who want to ban abortion all together though, before a baby is even formed should not be listened to or allowed in public office. The 'potential' human argument makes no sense at all.

 

[NinjaFridge]

And quite a difference between a fetus and a baby that has exited the womb.

I know.

 

[skybald]

A fetus doesn't have thoughts and feelings and it's not a person; it's a potential person like semen.

I wonder wife Pro Lifers aren't picketing the bedrooms of teenage boys since masturbation should be considered a murderous act too. I murder a few mill this weekend.

Semen and sperm are too different things. Neither have the potential to become a human.

Once brain activity starts in a fetus, it does have thoughts and feelings.

 

[Skelter]

You can freeze a baby fetus that's my reason.

 

[The One and Done™]

Having no understanding of basic biology isn't something you want to advertise on the internets.

Sweet, a condecsending post on the Internet. I'm was getting to the point that the whole idea of when life starts is ridiculous.

 

[PoweredBySoy]

I believe life begins when it's able to survive on it's own, otherwise it's a fetus and part of the mother - and her choice.

That said, I'd be perfectly okay with outlawing abortions after the first tri. (unless the mother is at risk)

 

[Zoc]

I have heard teachers in my religious tradition say that life begins at conception and others have stated it like I did. My opinion on if woman has a right to self determination has zero to do with my religious views.

That's a fair answer, but I guess the point I was trying to make was that science isn't going to give you easy answers to questions like this. As a matter of fact, anyone giving easy answers (such as "a woman's body is her castle" or "life begins at conception") is very likely to deceive rather than enlighten you.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

All the talk from people about how fetuses are people just seems like a giant joke to me because 80 percent of these supposed pro lifers don't give two shits once the baby is born.

Nor show up to other pro life issues, like gun control or capital punishment. It's selective pro life.

I personally would not want to have my wife get an abortion but I justify my pro choice position by thinking about the choice a rape victim would have to make. Some pro lifers believe all life is sacred at conception but I couldn't fathom forcing a woman to carry her rapist's child to term. That sounds like torture. Unfortunately, must pro lifer's are religious, a lot are Christian. The Bible actually discusses how were make up rules, then do not follow them. I think hard rules are just a way to know we are inadequate at effectively making these types of judgments. Yes, we want to protect life but I'm chiefly concerned about the life of the woman.

The position that all life is sacred yet have exceptions seems hypocritical. A fetus won't survive out of the womb before 24 weeks. Rarely survive before 30 weeks. And i do believe there are medically and socially acceptable reasons to terminate a pregnancy. So, I'm not pretending. I'm just accepting other factors that outweigh the fetus'right to life.

 

[Tapiozona]

You can freeze a baby fetus that's my reason.

No you can't. You can freeze an embryo, not a fetus. Nice try at a stupid joke though.

 

[Zoc]

Y'know, how can people take away the rights of a woman to choose whether she wants something growing in her or not?

They don't seem to have much trouble. How can people take away the rights of someone who has grown inside a woman?

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

I do think the exiting of the vagina being the crossing point is completely arbitrary and doesn't have any moral value. If I were to support an abortion pre-birth that is in it's 6th-9th month there's no discernible moral reason why I shouldn't also be willing to support killing a child after-birth. It's obvious at some point there is an actual baby in the womb and not just a bunch of gooey stuff.

But allowing society to kill post-birth children we don't want sounds obscene and something we would never do for one reason or another, so the vagina point has to be the line. The anti-choice people are partly correct in that there's a baby in the womb at some point, and we on the pro-choice side are choosing to kill it, I'm fine with owning up to that. But we have what I think are superior reasons for why it would be beneficial to do so rather than allow it to come into the world.

However the anti-choice people who want to ban abortion all together though, before a baby is even formed should not be listened to or allowed in public office. The 'potential' human argument makes no sense at all.

This may be my favorite post by you of all time. I don't EVER agree with anything you say but, stupid labels aside, you're spot on here. Trying to dehumanize a fetus only makes pro-abortion people look like fools.

 

[Pau]

I'm of the position of Pro-Choice in most circumstances.

Like many people I wouldn't want abortion to be a thing people do just because they've decided having a baby is too much work or money or whatever. Sexual intercourse comes with responsibility, and abortion should never be used simply as a means to skirt responsibility.

Skirt responsibility? I didn't realize pregnancy was a punishment for women who dared to have sex.

 

[Phreaker]

I don't think whether it's a potential person or not truly matters. You hear all these grand statements about the preciousness of life. Since when is life so precious? I have yet to see this sentiment elsewhere when it comes to leaving breathing out of the womb individuals.

Right? Do these same people protest as vehemently against war and the death penalty? I doubt it...

 

[The One and Done™]

I'm pro choice because it's none of my goddamn business and it doesn't affect me when someone else gets an abortion. Would I want my wife to get one? No. But if circumstances meant she would be in danger I would.

I find it funny how people that are pro life are also pro gun and capital punishment. It such political and relugious bullshit. You're pro life but when a school of kids gets shot the fuck up you vote against stricter gun laws. Fuck that way of thinking.

 

[BrassMonkey1010]

All I know is that I wouldn't be able to go through with an abortion, and it would hurt me if my girl did. Seems gross and barbaric to me.

 

[SUPREME1]

I don't think whether it's a potential person or not truly matters. You hear all these grand statements about the preciousness of life. [bold]Since when is life so precious?[/bold] I have yet to see this sentiment elsewhere when it comes to leaving breathing out of the womb individuals.

This is so sad.

 

[Nozem]

I can't see abortion as a black & white issue. It makes no sense to be able to kill a healthy baby a few days before it would be naturally born, only because it isn't born yet. But drawing an arbitrary line at say 20 weeks also makes no sense to me. I really don't know what to think, but I always find these topics fascinating to read.

 

[Pau]

They don't seem to have much trouble. How can people take away the rights of someone who has grown inside a woman?

Because that person is using another person's body against their will.

 

[RurouniZel]

Skirt responsibility? I didn't realize pregnancy was a punishment for women who dared to have sex.

Perhaps that was worded poorly. What I meant is that if two people have consensual sex, they should take responsibility if the woman becomes pregnant. And that means both of them, man and woman. It's not intended as a slight against women at all. Again I'm Pro-Choice.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I guess that's true. Better have a woman who had 4 abortions instead of a woman who has 4 kids she barely cares about.

Which makes it ironic when some individuals talk about "responsibility" in abortion discussions.
Banning abortion won't suddenly turn these people into responsible individuals, but rather turn them into irresponsible individuals who now have to care for children.

Then there of course remains the fact that you can be responsible, use multiple forms of protection, but still end up pregnant and in need of an abortion because you do not wish to be a parent. Just as all humans have a right to become a parent, they have just as great of a right to not become one in my opinion.

To say that they should avoid sex if parenthood is not an option for them is an unreasonable stance. We need regular sex to behave in an optimal manner, and I for one think that if that leads to abortions then that's more than an acceptable price to pay from a societal POV - as the ones dealing with the immediate effects of the abortion is the person actually getting one.

 

[rudieboy77]

Right? Do these same people protest as vehemently against war and the death penalty? I doubt it...

Catholics typically do, or used to. I do not agree with Catholicism but do have respect for their lack of hypocrisy on their stance on "life".

 

[The One and Done™]

How does some else having an abortion affect you?

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

This is so sad.

But true. Those hypocritical positions push people away.

 

[The One and Done™]

But true. Those hypocritical positions push people away.

Yup. Life is precious when it's politically convenient. But when an unarmed teenage black boy is walking in his fathers neighborhood in a hoodie he should expect to be potentially shot since he's a potential threat and all.

 

[faceless007]

Perhaps that was worded poorly. What I meant is that if two people have consensual sex, they should take responsibility if the woman becomes pregnant. And that means both of them, man and woman. It's not intended as a slight against women at all. Again I'm Pro-Choice.

Terminating the pregnancy if the woman is in no position to raise a child for 18 years is the responsible thing.

 

[RurouniZel]

Which makes it ironic when some individuals talk about "responsibility" in abortion discussions.
Banning abortion won't suddenly turn these people into responsible individuals, but rather turn them into irresponsible individuals who now have to care for children.

Then there of course remains the fact that you can be responsible, use multiple forms of protection, but still end up pregnant and in need of an abortion because you do not wish to be a parent. Just as all humans have a right to become a parent, they have just as great of a right to not become one in my opinion.

To say that they should avoid sex if parenthood is not an option for them is an unreasonable stance. We need regular sex to behave in an optimal manner, and I for one think that if that leads to abortions then that's more than an acceptable price to pay from a societal POV - as the ones dealing with the immediate effects of the abortion is the person actually getting one.

I know you're not responding to me, but I just wanted to say you make a compelling case that I had not considered. I shall make note of it when considering my opinions about responsibility and sex.

Terminating the pregnancy if the woman is in no position to raise a child for 18 years is the responsible thing.

As the person above pointed out, it has caused me to reconsider my original opinion.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Catholics typically do, or used to. I do not agree with Catholicism but do have respect for their lack of hypocrisy on their stance on "life".

They are still hypocrites at the leadership level. They just made a big stink about how the media wasn't talking about the Gosnell abortion murders instead of fixing their own mess. The bible talks about admitting your mistakes when confronted. I was upset about their ploy when they have a lot they could be doing to focus on their mistakes and not playing a political game.

 

[Derwind]

I don't think whether it's a potential person or not truly matters. You hear all these grand statements about the preciousness of life. Since when is life so precious? I have yet to see this sentiment elsewhere when it comes to leaving breathing out of the womb individuals.

The same people who seem to erratically lecture oeople on the value of life are the same people who want no gun control measures, capital punishment and a heavier military prescence around the world.

I just can't....

 

[BrassMonkey1010]

Which makes it ironic when some individuals talk about "responsibility" in abortion discussions.
Banning abortion won't suddenly turn these people into responsible individuals, but rather turn them into irresponsible individuals who now have to care for children.

Not saying your completely wrong, but having a baby will often mature a person and force them to be (somewhat) more responsible.

 

[Pau]

Perhaps that was worded poorly. What I meant is that if two people have consensual sex, they should take responsibility if the woman becomes pregnant. And that means both of them, man and woman. It's not intended as a slight against women at all. Again I'm Pro-Choice.

But having an abortion IS one way of taking responsibility.

And in such a situation, a man just can't possibly "take responsibility."

 

[Phire Phox]

A fetus changes a lot during development, from a lump of cells to something that looks more like a human.

To me the personhood of a fetus is not even important when considering abortion.

To me the biggest issue is the freedom and independence of what we can do with our bodies. The fetus is entirely dependent on the host until pretty late in development.

Just like I would not force someone to donate a kidney to save another human, I would not force a person to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term to save a fetus.

Great post. Agree with this.

 

[RurouniZel]

But having an abortion IS one way of taking responsibility.

And in such a situation, a man just can't possibly "take responsibility."

See my above post.

 

[hamchan]

Not saying your completely wrong, but having a baby will often mature a person and force them to be (somewhat) more responsible.

Not really, considering how many cases of child abuse and mistreatment there are in the world.

 

[Angry Fork]

All I know is that I wouldn't be able to go through with an abortion, and it would hurt me if my girl did. Seems gross and barbaric to me.

I don't know what the process of abortion is like but I imagine I'd rather do that then be forced to give up 18 years of my life taking care of something I don't want to take care of. The latter seems way more extreme and awful to the individual mother and/or father. At least the baby doesn't know and will never know what it is, it's not the same as killing an adult.

At the same time I think it's hypocritical when pro-choice people don't also admit that killing a baby post-birth is just as morally reasonable. Society has deemed the vagina point the 'line' we cannot cross but if society says killing chimps/bonobos is okay when they're way more intelligent than even a 5 year old (or dolphins/pigs/dogs etc. animals with feelings attachments and so on) seems hypocritical to me and simply favoritism towards your own species (assuming intelligence/sentience is the guiding point by which we shouldn't kill things).

I think pro-lifer's/anti-choice people have to also care about the well being of other animals that are just as mentally capable as babies/children if they're going to remain logically consistent. As well as obviously supporting widespread welfare state provisions for unwanted children, mandatory sex education, allowing mothers to take off work for long periods of time to raise the child, get financial benefits and so on but it's always the pro-lifers that are against all of this. Their hypocrisy is much more stunning and immoral than anything the pro-choicers have imo.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Perhaps that was worded poorly. What I meant is that if two people have consensual sex, they should take responsibility if the woman becomes pregnant. And that means both of them, man and woman. It's not intended as a slight against women at all. Again I'm Pro-Choice.

So if 2 people have sex for a bit of fun which results in an accidental pregnancy, they should take responsibility for raising the child no matter the circumstances? One mistake should potentially fuck up 2 peoples lives and perhaps even that of the child as well.

For what reason exactly? Because we don't want a fetus (or embryo) which has no sentience or ability to feel pain to be terminated.

 

[JohnDoe]

Not saying your completely wrong, but having a baby will often mature a person and force them to be (somewhat) more responsible.

What are you even arguing about? Are you seriously arguing it's okay to force unwanted babies onto people to make them more responsible? I'm sure that will turn out great.

 

[pompidu]

Not saying your completely wrong, but having a baby will often mature a person and force them to be (somewhat) more responsible.

Or the buck is passed onto someone else, like someone seeking adoption or the government. Which does happen frequently.

 

[NinjaFridge]

I can't see abortion as a black & white issue. It makes no sense to be able to kill a healthy baby a few days before it would be naturally born, only because it isn't born yet. But drawing an arbitrary line at say 20 weeks also makes no sense to me. I really don't know what to think, but I always find these topics fascinating to read.

It isn't an arbitrary line though.

 

[GatorBait]

Perhaps that was worded poorly. What I meant is that if two people have consensual sex, they should take responsibility if the woman becomes pregnant. And that means both of them, man and woman. It's not intended as a slight against women at all. Again I'm Pro-Choice.

Does "take responsibility" mean carrying a child to term, birthing it, and then supporting it for 18+ years, even if the circumstances of your life would make doing so an irresponsible decision overall?

Or, does "take responsibility" also include going through the difficult and emotional decision to have an abortion after conventional birth control methods fail? (I think we can both agree that not using birth control is irresponsible if you do not wish to have a baby.)

 

[ridethepiggy]

the government takes care of them. For now.
I would not be completely opposed to other options... if we need to consider them.

We euthanize unwanted dogs and other animals.

Wow...

 

[daycru]

But having an abortion IS one way of taking responsibility.

And in such a situation, a man just can't possibly "take responsibility."

It isn't about the kid, the eternally sexless want people punished for fucking. "You knew the risk."

 

[Zoc]

Because that person is using another person's body against their will.

The other person who willingly created that person, and who had 21 weeks to change her mind?

 

[The One and Done™]

Are pro lifers also anti contraception?

 

[RurouniZel]

So if 2 people have sex for a bit of fun which results in an accidental pregnancy, they should take responsibility for raising the child no matter the circumstances? One mistake should potentially fuck up 2 peoples lives and perhaps even that of the child as well.

For what reason exactly? Because we don't want a fetus (or embryo) which has no sentience or ability to feel pain to be terminated.

Does "take responsibility" mean carrying a child to term, birthing it, and then supporting it for 18+ years, even if the circumstances of your life would make doing so an irresponsible decision overall?

Or, does "take responsibility" also include going through the difficult and emotional decision to have an abortion after conventional birth control methods fail? (I think we can both agree that not using birth control is irresponsible if you do not wish to have a baby.)

Please see above post where I have stated I've reconsidered my opinion.

 

[Bodacious]

How does some else having an abortion affect you?

Is that your litmus test for everything? How does someone being murdered in Chicago for the $50 in their wallet affect you?

Are pro lifers also anti contraception?

Some are, some aren't. I'm sure there are people within that mindset who debate over what a 'true pro-lifer' is. But I think it's best to avoid generalizing and categorizing positions when it comes to abortion. This thread is a pretty good demonstration that peoples' beliefs and opinions on the issue are all over the map.

 

[bhytre]

Why do people pretend to care anyway, it's not yours.