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HTC Vive Launch Thread -- Computer, activate holodeck

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Croatoan

They/Them A-10 Warthog
What games would you say have the best artificial locomotion? So far I've only tried Altspace and Solus Project.

I have not played either of those but none of the games with AL I have played have done it correctly.

Part of the reason AL is "failing" and making people sick is that the devs are trying to use practices used in traditional games which is garunteed to make people vomit. You have to change the way you design in VR if you want to use AL in order to mitigate sickness and nobody has really done that yet.

Ex. Using best practices for speed it would take hours on end to cross Skyrim, which the average video game player would not enjoy. Just walking around a house would take a few minutes instead of the seconds in traditional games. By upping the speed to keep people engaged devs run the risk of making more people sick easier. So current devs say fuck it and use teleportation.

We feel our prototype does a great job at limiting motion sickness but we wont have anything ready for people to try for probably 6 months or more.

I suspect Krejloc's GoldenEye Demo will probably be the first well implemented locomotion attempt (that I assume is free to try) unless some unknown commercial project gets released (most games are completely avoiding the issue right now(teleportation), or just applying bad principles and hoping people don't vomit.)

Its possible Altspace or Solus has good AL. I need to try those to have an opinion though.
 

Onemic

Member
Pretty much what I wanted to know, but put more concisely :)

I mean, checking this thread on PSVR and Farpoint , which is about a Youtube video from people who don't seem to be gamers (Hollywood reporters?), They don't seem to be tacken aback by the locomotion at all. So there has to be better examples out there for Vive.

And yeah, the points Croatoan brought are pretty, uhm, on point. Instant movement is bad, high speed is bad. Both the games I've tested so far have had both.

Ya, which is why Im really interested in how Farpoint handled its artificial locomotion since there didnt seem to be many complaints about motion sickness from their demo.

Altspace's locomotion is decent but it has no acceleration and it still feels as though you're standing in a moving vehicle when you move around, making turning while moving your feet feel disorienting.(I have a feeling that all VR games on Steam currently suffer from this) If Farpoint has solved this issue, that would be awesome.

Too bad I dont know anyone that played the demo at E3 to get some impressions.

I have not played either of those but none of the games with AL I have played have done it correctly.

Part of the reason AL is "failing" and making people sick is that the devs are trying to use practices used in traditional games which is garunteed to make people vomit. You have to change the way you design in VR if you want to use AL in order to mitigate sickness and nobody has really done that yet.

Ex. Using best practices for speed it would take hours on end to cross Skyrim, which the average video game player would not enjoy. Just walking around a house would take a few minutes instead of the seconds in traditional games. By upping the speed to keep people engaged devs run the risk of making more people sick easier. So current devs say fuck it and use teleportation.

We feel our prototype does a great job at limiting motion sickness but we wont have anything ready for people to try for probably 6 months or more.

I suspect Krejloc's GoldenEye Demo will probably be the first well implemented locomotion unless some unknown commercial project gets released (most games are completely avoiding the issue right now(teleportation), or just applying bad principles and hoping people don't vomit.)

Its possible Altspace or Solus has good AL. I need to try those to have an opinion though.

Thanks for the writeup. My altspace impressions are above. I think it's decent and I use it over teleportation, but it could still use improvement. Solus Project's implementation is terrible, but that may be more to do with their extremely clunky control scheme because other than that I feel that it would probably feel similar to Altspace.

Any idea on how to solve the turning problem? How would you make it so that it doesnt feel like you're standing in a moving vehicle?
 

wwm0nkey

Member
Yes. I just bought today because of all the awesome feedback in Reddit /r/vive and I can confirm it is amazing. At first I steered clear of the title because of the crap graphics but man was I wrong for judging a VR game based on graphics. Don't let the simple graphics fool you.

This is by far the most fun I've had in VR; poolnation and the lab come in a close second.

Imagine combining a fps game with live action paintball or laser tag. That's what battle dome is. The locomotion mechanic is similad to splatoon's paint splatter with a cool down and it works great.


You have the option of a one handed weapon with a small paint gun. Two hand weapons with no paint gun. A larger two handed paint gun that can paint further and faster. Or you can do melee and shield. Each weapon type has a purpose.
sold
 

Croatoan

They/Them A-10 Warthog
In Solus, it was the turning combined with the less than optimal (slow) head tracking. It threw me off big time. I needed an hour or more to completely regenerate.

Yeah, that isn't caused by locomotion. If you are not using a cockpit you should NEVER turn the camera. NEVER EVER. Let the player turn themselves. You should also never alter the cameras height separate from the players perceived height (ie crouching).

I have found that gradually walking up ramps does not lead to nausea. Steps can cause issues though therefor all "Steps" should probably function like ramps even if they are visually steps.

Ya, which is why Im really interested in how Farpoint handled its artificial locomotion since there didnt seem to be many complaints about motion sickness from their demo.

Altspace's locomotion is decent but it has no acceleration and it still feels as though you're standing in a moving vehicle when you move around, making turning while moving your feet feel disorienting.(I have a feeling that all VR games on Steam currently suffer from this) If Farpoint has solved this issue, that would be awesome.

Too bad I dont know anyone that played the demo at E3 to get some impressions.



Thanks for the writeup. My altspace impressions are above. I think it's decent and I use it over teleportation, but it could still use improvement. Solus Project's implementation is terrible, but that may be more to do with their extremely clunky control scheme because other than that I feel that it would probably feel similar to Altspace.

Any idea on how to solve the turning problem? How would you make it so that it doesnt feel like you're standing in a moving vehicle?

Look how slow the movement speed is in Farpoint (it looks between 3-5mph). I think that is the reason there are no complaints. I was going to mention that in the above but since I have not played it, and its for PSVR, I didn't.

As for turning, like I said above, it should only ever be done by the player. It feels completely natural in our tests and causes no sickness. For VR without a cockpit YOU are the right joystick.
 

Onemic

Member
Yeah, that isn't caused by locomotion. If you are not using a cockpit you should NEVER turn the camera. NEVER EVER. Let the player turn themselves. You should also never alter the cameras height separate from the players perceived height (ie crouching).

I have found that gradually walking up ramps does not lead to nausea. Steps can cause issues though therefor all "Steps" should probably function like ramps even if they are visually steps.



Look how slow the movement speed is in Farpoint (it looks between 3-5mph). I think that is the reason there are no complaints. I was going to mention that in the above but since I have not played it, and its for PSVR, I didn't.

As for turning, like I said above, it should only ever be done by the player. It feels completely natural in our tests and causes no sickness. For VR without a cockpit YOU are the right joystick.

I dont mean rotation by camera. I mean using artificial locomotion to move yourself forward while at the same time turning by moving your head + feet. In both Altspace and Solus Project(And I assume other VR titles) if you do this without also moving your feet it's fine, but this is limiting as you dont get a full range of rotation. If you try and move forward with artificial rotation while at the same time moving your head as well as your feet to achieve a greater range of rotation, it becomes disorienting. This is why I said it feels as if you're on a moving vehicle because(at least to me) your brain feels that you should be off balance when you physically turn with your feet while at the same time moving forward with artificial locomotion. Naturally If you're standing on a moving vehicle like a bus that's making a turn and you begin moving around, you'll either fall or at the very least be off balance. It seems as though that experience is replicated in your brain when you do the same in VR.

Hope that makes sense.
 

bomblord1

Banned
Is there a way to turn off the mirroring on games seems pointless to have the game showing up on your screen except in times when you have multiple people together and I feel like it would rob performance. I've tried minimizing the window in some games but that usually either crashes it, doesn't work at all (ie there's no minimize option), or closes the game.

Maybe even a way to just completely disable the desktop while using the headset? Would turning off my monitor work and then I could just launch games from the Steam VR Home.
 

SomTervo

Member
So wait, what does artificial locomotion mean? I tried the very first VR version of Solus and it made me almost puke within 5 minutes.

Solus dev here (though not working on VR implementation).

The game got a huge VR update just over a week ago. Should be far easier to play. But it's not perfect yet, still a non-VR game first.

Some people think it's absolutely phenomenal, which is great.

If you or anyone here has any feedback, hop on over to the OT.

In Solus, it was the turning combined with the less than optimal (slow) head tracking. It threw me off big time. I needed an hour or more to completely regenerate.

This is totally fixed IIRC, you can now separate head and body controls IIRC and there's a built-in teleporter to make movement easier immediately.

Means people skip some important stuff, though...

Using analog controls to move, like you did in Solus Project.

Solus doesnt do VR very well at all, so ya.

Have you played it since the big patch? A lot better now. But yeah, not perfect.

I think crouching is still weird. The amount of complaints has plummeted, though.

The annoying thing is people reviewing the game on VR only and being super harsh when we clearly paste 'VR WORK IN PROGRESS' all over the thing.

I'd rather nobody review it at all.

Yeah, that isn't caused by locomotion. If you are not using a cockpit you should NEVER turn the camera. NEVER EVER. Let the player turn themselves. You should also never alter the cameras height separate from the players perceived height (ie crouching).

I think we've removed the analog turning now :)

Shit was rough af to begin with
 

Onemic

Member
Solus dev here (though not working on VR implementation).

The game got a huge VR update just over a week ago. Should be far easier to play. But it's not perfect yet, still a non-VR game first.

Some people think it's absolutely phenomenal, which is great.

If you or anyone here has any feedback, hop on over to the OT.



This is totally fixed IIRC, you can now separate head and body controls IIRC and there's a built-in teleporter to make movement easier immediately.

Means people skip some important stuff, though...



Have you played it since the big patch? A lot better now. But yeah, not perfect.

I think crouching is still weird. The amount of complaints has plummeted, though.

The annoying thing is people reviewing the game on VR only and being super harsh when we clearly paste 'VR WORK IN PROGRESS' all over the thing.

I'd rather nobody review it at all.



I think we've removed the analog turning now :)

Shit was rough af to begin with

Im pretty sure I have the latest patch. Did the patch remove the whole touch(instead of press down on) the touch pad to move thing? Because I think that implementation is really bad.
 
Is there a way to turn off the mirroring on games seems pointless to have the game showing up on your screen except in times when you have multiple people together and I feel like it would rob performance. I've tried minimizing the window in some games but that usually either crashes it, doesn't work at all (ie there's no minimize option), or closes the game.

Maybe even a way to just completely disable the desktop while using the headset? Would turning off my monitor work and then I could just launch games from the Steam VR Home.

You can turn off your monitor to avoid burn-in or wasting electricity, but no way to permanently disable mirroring afaik. The performance loss is basically zero though - you're already having to render that viewport to the hmd, and also every dev tests with the mirroring on so it is built-in to performance concerns.
 

SomTervo

Member
Im pretty sure I have the latest patch. Did the patch remove the whole touch(instead of press down on) the touch pad to move thing? Because I think that implementation is really bad.

Christ yes. We removed that around the 11th of June. That was immediately gone. The aforementioned thing that almost ruined us on Steam reviews. (Understandably. We stated it wasn't ready for VR, but didn't ram that message down people's throats.)
 

bomblord1

Banned
You can turn off your monitor to avoid burn-in or wasting electricity, but no way to permanently disable mirroring afaik. The performance loss is basically zero though - you're already having to render that viewport to the hmd, and also every dev tests with the mirroring on so it is built-in to performance concerns.

So it does work ok with the monitor off? I was worried it wouldn't.
 

Onemic

Member
Christ yes. We removed that around the 11th of June. That was immediately gone. The aforementioned thing that almost ruined us on Steam reviews. (Understandably. We stated it wasn't ready for VR, but didn't ram that message down people's throats.)

Oh, I dont know why steam hasn't downloaded the latest version for me then. I'll get the update and then try again. Thanks.
 
So it does work ok with the monitor off? I was worried it wouldn't.

Should work just fine. Start SteamVR and flip off your monitor, put on the hmd and you're good to go.

I have my desktop in the living room hooked up to my plasma tv, which I don't want on while I'm in VR unless I have people over due to potential burn-in, electricity use, and heat, so I just flip it off.

You can even use virtual desktop to do anything else you need in VR, and I've heard there are ways to boot straight into virtual desktop / steam VR so you wouldn't need a monitor at all.
 
Given that I am not in the 22 launch countries, what is my best bet to buy a Vive?

Freight forwarders are expensive. Would cost an additional 250$ if I use my typical Aramex account.

Should I just wait till they announce worldwide shipping??
 

bomblord1

Banned
Should work just fine. Start SteamVR and flip off your monitor, put on the hmd and you're good to go.

I have my desktop in the living room hooked up to my plasma tv, which I don't want on while I'm in VR unless I have people over due to potential burn-in, electricity use, and heat, so I just flip it off.

You can even use virtual desktop to do anything else you need in VR, and I've heard there are ways to boot straight into virtual desktop / steam VR so you wouldn't need a monitor at all.

Regarding this apparently you have to use some kind of peripheral that plugs into your computer to create a fake desktop. It's actually in their FAQ on steam.

Where do you guys even get 360 vids from?

Both non porn and porn :p

Well the first one can be found in a decent abundance on youtube. Virtual Desktop is capable of downloading the file directly from a link and then displaying it.
 
Well... USPS should charge around 60$ for shipping it.

Post in B/S/T and explain your situation and country and say you're willing to pay retail US + US sales tax and initial shipping + $60. Maybe plus a bit extra as a thank you. You should be able to get someone to help you out. That's what I would do anyway.

I'd offer to help you myself, but I'm going to be leaving home in a couple days for an extended period of time.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Where do you guys even get 360 vids from?

Both non porn and porn :p

Youtube and the porn equivalent have 360/180/VR support. On the non-streaming side, there's a number of sites dedicated to VR porn in particular. Most porn is 180 hemispherical though. 360 is mostly pointless.

That said, VR porn is more of a novelty than anything. Very hit or miss, with more misses than hits. The industry isn't used to making content around the tech. Even when the actual content is passable, there's the technical hitches. Resolution and framerate demands require lots of encoding bandwidth to avoid artifacting. Even with 5+GB movies, it's just not enough to avoid artifacts. Then there's the geometric distortion and scale issues.
 
Post in B/S/T and explain your situation and country and say you're willing to pay retail US + US sales tax and initial shipping + $60. Maybe plus a bit extra as a thank you. You should be able to get someone to help you out. That's what I would do anyway.

I'd offer to help you myself, but I'm going to be leaving home in a couple days for an extended period of time.

Wow... Didn't know Gaf had a B/S/T thread... I should really look outside of the main gaming forums more! Interesting possibilities! But warranty headaches.

Has there been any news of an full international release? I remember full commercial availability was being rumored to be in fall.
 

Paganmoon

Member
Possibly thread-worthy, but I'm still a junior, soooo...

Exclusive: See the Secret Prototypes We Found in Valve’s VR Lab (Makezine)

Ok, just checked the video on that link (the writeup wasn't really that interesting)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLBxz7djQvc

Man that's so freaking cool. Would love to hear much more about the design process of the Vive/SteamVR.

Im pretty sure I have the latest patch. Did the patch remove the whole touch(instead of press down on) the touch pad to move thing? Because I think that implementation is really bad.

Looking forward to hearing how you find it, might give it a go myself if you give it a good score :)
 

SomTervo

Member
Oh, I dont know why steam hasn't downloaded the latest version for me then. I'll get the update and then try again. Thanks.

Steam was doing that to me, too. Being a bit weird.

Good luck – and thanks for the feedback! Appreciate it. Feel free to drop us more in the OT/r/Vive.
 

bloodydrake

Cool Smoke Luke
This is a trivial detail of the VR experience, but ...

How do you protect your HTC Vive headset from dust while you are not using it? I am personally using a large transparent plastic bag with endpoints that can easily be tied together. It was included in one of the Oculus Developer Kits if I remember correctly. It works just fine (the lenses still seem dust free), but it is not the most elegant solution. Anyone who has solved this issue in a better way? Maybe some fancy box to put the headset in?

Honestly I leave it plugged in and just lay a tea towel over it so its covered.
Shrug seems the easiest no muss no fuss way to get dust off if
 

bloodydrake

Cool Smoke Luke
So I've been spending sometime trying to get Future Pinball setup since we're not gonna see any Vive official support for a while.

I've got it to the point were its pretty damn amazing.

There is really a lot of outdated documentation about Future Pinball out there so it takes alot to figure out there's usually an easier way to set things up then the guide you've been following.
I can say the 2.7 Physics are a world better then the old default ones I used along time ago. Its much closer to TPA now.

Ravarcade updated the BAM.DLL to allow the DMD to be solid which helps readability and eliminated the really bad moire effect that was going on.

SlamTIlts Addams Family and Lord of the Rings tables play perfectly with a 970 and 4x AA settings in BAM Openvr pluggin.

I might right up a beginners setup guide if there's a need but
https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4hvhl5/future_pinball_on_vive_is_fantastic/ gets you most of the way there.
Only thing I would use default exe and just add the 2.7 physics xml file instead of multiple versions of the program.
 

Onemic

Member
Steam was doing that to me, too. Being a bit weird.

Good luck – and thanks for the feedback! Appreciate it. Feel free to drop us more in the OT/r/Vive.

The update doesnt show up in my download queue :/

Is there any way to manually download it from Steam?
 

Onemic

Member
Have you fully exited and restarted Steam? That usually forces it to check for updates on any games you have automatic updates enabled for.

Yep, no update in the queue. I tried running it again thinking that maybe it had already been downloaded, but nope. Touch to move controls are still there.
 
Wow... Didn't know Gaf had a B/S/T thread... I should really look outside of the main gaming forums more! Interesting possibilities! But warranty headaches.

Has there been any news of an full international release? I remember full commercial availability was being rumored to be in fall.

Someone else can probably give you a better answer about international release status since I'm not super informed, by I do remember reading that HTC has stated they'll warranty a device for one year after it was originally sold, regardless of whether or not it is still in the hands of the original purchaser. Assuming Vive hardware is the same around the word, I don't see why this wouldn't apply to you if you're trying to get the Vive repaired later on (assuming they are eventually released officially in your country)
 

SomTervo

Member
The update doesnt show up in my download queue :/

Is there any way to manually download it from Steam?

Super weird. Verify integrity of game cache?

Edit: here are the patch notes and below are the new controls, if you're curious:

newvrcontrols.jpg
 

jotun?

Member
Ex. Using best practices for speed it would take hours on end to cross Skyrim, which the average video game player would not enjoy. Just walking around a house would take a few minutes instead of the seconds in traditional games. By upping the speed to keep people engaged devs run the risk of making more people sick easier. So current devs say fuck it and use teleportation.

I'm sure it varies from person to person, but in my experience it's actually been the slower more realistic movement speeds that kill me. On the Rift DK2 I could play Quake2 and Windlands with their 30mph run speeds without only minor discomfort. The demos where I just slowly walked around a house or a movie scene put me in bed for hours feeling like I had some horrible fever.

Might be something like the uncanny valley, where high speeds are unrealistic enough that my brain just gives up on trying to associate it with reality, but slow movement is close enough that it tries and fails.
 

pj

Banned
Battle dome is legitttttttttttttttt. It is basically one step above proof of concept at this point, though.

Valve should hire the guy and put a team of 30 people on this shit
 

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
So, I have been having a problem, I have my PC monitor connected via DVI on my 970, and I have been alternating between using the HDMI for my 4KTV, and the Vive. Problem being, when switching between the two, it gets all wonky and takes me like 30+minutes to get the Vive running right again after I swap.

Not once, but twice this has caused friends coming over after a night of drinking expecting to play my Vive waiting 30 minutes just to be disappointing and give up.

So, SOLUTION! I ordered a Displayport to Mini-displayport cord from Amazon Basics.


Thing is, my headset does not detect it at all... and says something about a mirrored display?


Anyone else have issues using the Displayport? Work around? Halp!
 

bomblord1

Banned
So, I have been having a problem, I have my PC monitor connected via DVI on my 970, and I have been alternating between using the HDMI for my 4KTV, and the Vive. Problem being, when switching between the two, it gets all wonky and takes me like 30+minutes to get the Vive running right again after I swap.

Not once, but twice this has caused friends coming over after a night of drinking expecting to play my Vive waiting 30 minutes just to be disappointing and give up.

So, SOLUTION! I ordered a Displayport to Mini-displayport cord from Amazon Basics.


Thing is, my headset does not detect it at all... and says something about a mirrored display?


Anyone else have issues using the Displayport? Work around? Halp!

My graphics card only has displayport and a single HDMI output and my monitor only had an HDMI input. Needless to say I had issues as I couldn't connect both at the same time. I tried using the mini-display out on the box but it didn't seem to do anything. I looked it up and it seems that the box won't work with "passive" adapters. So I bought a display port to HDMI cable and plugged that in to my GPU. The next issue I had was it was recognizing the vive headset as my main display. So I had to open resolution settings and set my monitor as the main. (after downloading the Vive software it no longer sees it as a display at all thankfully).

The only way I could get it to work was using 2 separate outputs on my GPU for both the headset and the monitor and setting my monitor as the primary display. Not sure if that is similar to what you are experiencing or not.
 

FlyinJ

Douchebag. Yes, me.
So, I have been having a problem, I have my PC monitor connected via DVI on my 970, and I have been alternating between using the HDMI for my 4KTV, and the Vive. Problem being, when switching between the two, it gets all wonky and takes me like 30+minutes to get the Vive running right again after I swap.

Not once, but twice this has caused friends coming over after a night of drinking expecting to play my Vive waiting 30 minutes just to be disappointing and give up.

So, SOLUTION! I ordered a Displayport to Mini-displayport cord from Amazon Basics.


Thing is, my headset does not detect it at all... and says something about a mirrored display?


Anyone else have issues using the Displayport? Work around? Halp!

I've tried 3 different HDMI to Displayport adapters and none of them have worked. The only thing that did work was an actual HDMI to Displayport cable... no idea why.

You might be having the same issue... try a DP to MiniDP cable instead of adapter.
 

Yoritomo

Member
I've tried 3 different HDMI to Displayport adapters and none of them have worked. The only thing that did work was an actual HDMI to Displayport cable... no idea why.

You might be having the same issue... try a DP to MiniDP cable instead of adapter.

I've had every DVI to DP or miniDP adapter begin to fail within about 3-4 months.

I agree that someone should buy a cable with the correct connectors instead of an adapter.
 

Septimus

Member
Two part question. Is there video player/watch in theater app? I remember seeing screens of that last year. And secondly is there a said theater app that can hook into Plex?
 

Apoc29

Member
So, I have been having a problem, I have my PC monitor connected via DVI on my 970, and I have been alternating between using the HDMI for my 4KTV, and the Vive. Problem being, when switching between the two, it gets all wonky and takes me like 30+minutes to get the Vive running right again after I swap.

Not once, but twice this has caused friends coming over after a night of drinking expecting to play my Vive waiting 30 minutes just to be disappointing and give up.

So, SOLUTION! I ordered a Displayport to Mini-displayport cord from Amazon Basics.


Thing is, my headset does not detect it at all... and says something about a mirrored display?


Anyone else have issues using the Displayport? Work around? Halp!

I've also used a DP to Mini-DP cable with my 970 and I haven't found any consistent steps to get it working correctly. Usually I would just power cycle the link box and restart the headset a few times until it worked. Most of the time the headset would be detected as video output but it wouldn't be detected as audio output and vice versa. Also try unplugging and plugging the cable into the video card then restarting the headset.
 
Just got my vive, holy moly its ridiculous! :) So far no sickness at all (even playing cars standing with a controller) so hopefully I'm good. I can't believe how good the touch controllers are, its so natural to grab stuff.

Brilliant, utterly brilliant!
 

Zalusithix

Member
I've also used a DP to Mini-DP cable with my 970 and I haven't found any consistent steps to get it working correctly. Usually I would just power cycle the link box and restart the headset a few times until it worked. Most of the time the headset would be detected as video output but it wouldn't be detected as audio output and vice versa. Also try unplugging and plugging the cable into the video card then restarting the headset.

I find this situation quite baffling. I wonder if there's an issue on the software/driver side, or the hardware side (link box). I don't have any issues since I'm using the sole HDMI port I have for the Vive, but you'd think a DP->mDP cable would just work. This should be standards level stuff. It's certainly something they're going to have to work out, because HDMI is inferior to DP for the future higher res VR sets.
 

bomblord1

Banned
Just got my vive, holy moly its ridiculous! :) So far no sickness at all (even playing cars standing with a controller) so hopefully I'm good. I can't believe how good the touch controllers are, its so natural to grab stuff.

Brilliant, utterly brilliant!

I've also found that nothing has yet to make me even remotely sick some people definitely have a higher tolerance than others.

Also congrats and welcome :)
 

Durante

Member
So Sayonara Umihara Kawase just got an official SteamVR patch.

You know, Sayonara Umihara Kawase. The quirky platformer me and 2 other people bought on Steam. Got an official SteamVR patch.

What.
I'll report back.
 
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