GuitarAtomik
Member
Man. I played like an hour of SuperHOT, and when I came out I caught myself moving as if time would only move when I did. Kind of a surreal moment lol.
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HTC Vive Launch Thread -- Computer, activate holodeck
- Thread starter taco543
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The VR implementation is apparently really bad. Bad performance, bad IQ, inexplicable latency, and so on.
"Black frame insertion" doesn't provide perfect blacks. In fact, it doesn't change the contrast ratio at all.
It's a basic technique to implement a low-persistence display -- the Vive already uses low-persistence (with even less persistence actually than standard black frame insertion). IIRC the display has a 10% duty cycle, which is much less persistence than the 50% duty cycle of black frame insertion.
What you want is for OLED panel makers to improve the color switching performance when turning on a pixel that was completely off.
It's a basic technique to implement a low-persistence display -- the Vive already uses low-persistence (with even less persistence actually than standard black frame insertion). IIRC the display has a 10% duty cycle, which is much less persistence than the 50% duty cycle of black frame insertion.
What you want is for OLED panel makers to improve the color switching performance when turning on a pixel that was completely off.
Haint
Member
Have you actually used a Rift or PSVR extensively and critically? Vive's rings are by far the least offensive of the 3 when compared to Rift's god awful god rays and PSVR's sub-millimeter sweet spot and significant CA.
The DK2 did low persistence and maintained the blacks. If you ran without low persistence the blacks smeared just like the Vive did when the gamma had been adjusted in the beta.
I did mean low persistence but forgot the name for it.
Used the DK2 quite a bit.
Some chromatic abrasion and a tighter sweet spot bit I preferred the look through the lenses.
Still love the vive though.
I have a DK2 right next to me and used it from its launch until the Vive/CV1 launch. It had 2 modes of operation: true black smear or much more noticeable non-black than the current consumer HMDs.
Sadly this is an issue with the OLED panel tech used in all HMDs that needs to be fixed at the tech level.
Sadly this is an issue with the OLED panel tech used in all HMDs that needs to be fixed at the tech level.
I originally had a defect in mine where the right eye/screen wouldn't apply mura correction, thus giving me the black smear. Being able to compare the two as easily as closing one eye, mura correction is a necessary compromise in my opinion, but I'd love to see better panels address the issue in future iterations.
Zalusithix
Member
Cross posting this since seemingly nobody checks the regular VR thread, and it's prototyped on the Vive anyhow.
Road to VR has an article up on one of the upcoming wireless VR accessory contenders. Based on WiFi standards, proprietary compression scheme, less than 3ms total latency.
Mach-2K Specs:
The interesting thing to me is that it's a belt based unit with antennas that wrap around the body. Assuming this works, it rather neatly solves the high frequency problem. Rather than having the need for the transmitter high up in a central location to clearly see the head like the current Vive solution, this would allow it placed at desktop height and still have a LOS to the unit or its antennas regardless of body angle or position.
Only time will show whether the compression is up to the task. They have these samples provided of a raw image compared to their old compression and new version, but it's easy enough to pull deceptive samples.
Road to VR has an article up on one of the upcoming wireless VR accessory contenders. Based on WiFi standards, proprietary compression scheme, less than 3ms total latency.
Mach-2K Specs:
- Current resolution fully supported 2160 x 1200
- Current frame-rate fully supported 90Hz
- Planned resolution in the near future 4K per eye
- Planned frame-rate in the near future 120Hz
- Main CPU: FPGA
- I/O: HDMI, USB 2.0, 12volts out.
- Eye tracking input
- Supply Power: 5 Volts DC
- Current Frequencies: 802.11ac Wi-Fi 5Ghz
- Future Supported Frequencies: Up to 60Ghz WiGig
- On-board software: B.A.I.T Biologically Augmented Image Transmission Algorithm
- OEM and SDK options available, allowing third parties to create application specific modules for the algorithm.
- User select-able compression schemes
The interesting thing to me is that it's a belt based unit with antennas that wrap around the body. Assuming this works, it rather neatly solves the high frequency problem. Rather than having the need for the transmitter high up in a central location to clearly see the head like the current Vive solution, this would allow it placed at desktop height and still have a LOS to the unit or its antennas regardless of body angle or position.
Only time will show whether the compression is up to the task. They have these samples provided of a raw image compared to their old compression and new version, but it's easy enough to pull deceptive samples.
Guardian Monkey
Member
I'm all over this as long as the price isn't too crazy. What are people thinking this is going to cost $300 or $400?
The people making it seem to think $1200-1500 
(In the interview)
I don't think it's actually particularly expensive to build, from the description. The most expensive part is likely the FPGA (they might need a large/high-performance one) which could be replaced by a ASIC for a high-quantity consumer version.
I do wonder how their compression works, the given description is hardly more than "poof proprietary magic". It does sound like it might be non-temporal, and then it could just be a fast FPGA implementation of something like a variation of JPEG2000 or intra-frame x265 encoding.
(In the interview)I don't think it's actually particularly expensive to build, from the description. The most expensive part is likely the FPGA (they might need a large/high-performance one) which could be replaced by a ASIC for a high-quantity consumer version.
I do wonder how their compression works, the given description is hardly more than "poof proprietary magic". It does sound like it might be non-temporal, and then it could just be a fast FPGA implementation of something like a variation of JPEG2000 or intra-frame x265 encoding.
We had them.
:-(
Of course BFI will help with the drawback of "all off" black levels with current displays (smearing, if I wasn't clear enough) - but according to Durante, the current panels already do a better job of this than BFI.
It's not only good, it's probably the best VR experience I've had since first trying VR. Seriously.
Zalusithix
Member
The people making it seem to think $1200-1500
I don't think it's actually particularly expensive to build, from the description. The most expensive part is likely the FPGA (they might need a large/high-performance one) which could be replaced by a ASIC for a high-quantity consumer version.
I do wonder how their compression works, the given description is hardly more than "poof proprietary magic". It does sound like it might be non-temporal, and then it could just be a fast FPGA implementation of something like a variation of JPEG2000 or intra-frame x265 encoding.
Yeah, I imagine the price point quoted is based on turning a profit while having a FPGA (expensive) and low estimated sales volume (VR arcades, theme parks, training etc.). Using an ASIC and going up to general consumer economies of scale would drastically change what they could charge.
No idea with the compression, and I doubt we'll ever find out. They obviously view that as a key linchpin to their product's viability.
GuitarAtomik
Member
Thumper was really cool before, but playing it in VR probably puts it really close to GOTY for me. The extra immersion almost feels like a vital component. Like it's not complete without it.
Is there any possible way we get Rez Infinite on PC? That's the only other game I can see coming close in a similar way.
It's one of the best VR games currently available.
Is there any possible way we get Rez Infinite on PC? That's the only other game I can see coming close in a similar way.
It's one of the best VR games currently available.
Putosaure
Member
Vertigo is out !
http://store.steampowered.com/app/465430/
14.99 (insert local currency here), and there's a cool demo.
Price is not too steep !
http://store.steampowered.com/app/465430/
14.99 (insert local currency here), and there's a cool demo.
Price is not too steep !
Maybe someone will mod a Dreamcast emulator and let us play Rez on the Vive that way.
Vlaphor
Member
Very. It's one of the most fun and badass VR experiences I've had. Imagine that in slow motion, you throw a coffee cup at a guy's face, catch his gun out of the air, turn your arm to the right and shoot two more guys in one fluid motion.
Things that awesome are a common occurrence in this game.
https://youtu.be/CSED5yQoUmY?t=1096
OnionPowder
Member
yep, incredible really.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Wow, that seems like a good price. Any indication of how long the game is? The demo was cool.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
yah, where the hell is Rez Infinite for PC?
Guardian Monkey
Member
Didn't Sony buy that exclusive for sometime or is that thumper? I really need to hook up my vive again. it's been unplugged for about four/five months
Wowfunhappy
Member
Well they definitely didn't buy exclusivity for Thumper, since that's available on PC right now with VR support.
Apparantly the issues with Vermintide are connected to some strange ini settings.
http://steamcommunity.com/app/410390/discussions/0/152391995424207030/#c152391995424726094
Gonna try this today for sure (with real native settings maybe, lol).
http://steamcommunity.com/app/410390/discussions/0/152391995424207030/#c152391995424726094
Gonna try this today for sure (with real native settings maybe, lol).
Anyone tried it yet?
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
I will likely pick it up at some point. The demo was good and I think a full game could be neat. At that price point it seems like an easy purchase for me. However, I'm holding off on buying anything until the Steam sale starts. I don't want to go too crazy.
Yeah, SUPERHOT VR looks like a massive improvement in the gameplay, with tricks like bullet slices becoming relatively trivial.
jacksepticeye having some fun with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuGz6IKldZI
Definitely agree with this comment: "Ok, someone needs to make a fucking pair of VR legs so you can fuckin Sparta kick the guy off of the helicopter"
Seriously, a top priority should be making a Lighthouse-based device you can strap around each shoe for foot tracking.
jacksepticeye having some fun with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuGz6IKldZI
Definitely agree with this comment: "Ok, someone needs to make a fucking pair of VR legs so you can fuckin Sparta kick the guy off of the helicopter"
Seriously, a top priority should be making a Lighthouse-based device you can strap around each shoe for foot tracking.
Is there any moving around in Superhot VR? Teleporting or anything like that? Or is it just a stationary game?
I tried out the Vermintide VR, it was super bizarre, i was in the way of the skaven, none of them paying any attention to me, just rushing past me and the stationary heroes who were just standing in the corner while i shot skaven that were trying to kill a door. It's also one of the worst looking vr games i have seen, everything was so blurry and the scale seemed to be way off, i'm pretty tall but while i was standing next to the witch hunter he was just towering over me, same with the other characters i saw around the place. It was pretty hilarious how when you hit Skaven with a melee weapon the flew to the walls at like 200 km/h even from the smallest swipe.
I tried out the Vermintide VR, it was super bizarre, i was in the way of the skaven, none of them paying any attention to me, just rushing past me and the stationary heroes who were just standing in the corner while i shot skaven that were trying to kill a door. It's also one of the worst looking vr games i have seen, everything was so blurry and the scale seemed to be way off, i'm pretty tall but while i was standing next to the witch hunter he was just towering over me, same with the other characters i saw around the place. It was pretty hilarious how when you hit Skaven with a melee weapon the flew to the walls at like 200 km/h even from the smallest swipe.
Zalusithix
Member
Top priority is torso tracking. We need that just to get artificial locomotion working well and proper chest/belt interaction. Then feet. After that the elbows and knees.
hell yeah....... not only one of the best VR games but also up there in top ten all time for me.
Super
Hot..
Why would you need torso tracking if you have feet that are tracked? Wouldn't it be pretty "easy" to calculate which direction your torso is pointing based of your hands and feet?
Teknopathetic
Member
Thats pretty error prone compared to actual torso tracking. Look at arm IK without elbow tracking. Pretty wonky.
Hmm, I'm not seeing it (but maybe I'm missing something). If I could only pick one, I think the feet would make a much bigger impact just due to the sheer scope of the gameplay it opens up. *Godzilla-stomps some cars*
IK could do a better job of approximating torso position with the feet known at least. Maybe a belt as the next one? With positions captured for feet, pelvis, hands and skull, there's not much range of motion left. Elbows for sure, but I think knees might not be necessary.
This is something ED addressed in their recent update (beta) by using dithering. I don't know if that's applicable to other titles.
Sleeping Lesson
Member
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Holy shit, is this guy okay? He's yelling and acting like he downed 17 redbulls.
TharpDaddy
Member
If you don't mind me asking, what games do you play for VR parties? I might get a headset in the near future and it'd be awesome to know what games are good for something like that.
But unlike elbow tracking there's not nearly as many positions where your torso could be pointing, especially since your head is also tracked.
Allegedly these youtube vids are considered entertainment these days... things like this make you realize you are getting old.
Got a million views on a VR video after one day - it works. I just assume it's a persona being put on for the show and don't sweat it.
Zalusithix
Member
Feet would narrow in the position and direction of the torso, but you'd still be guessing. With movement, you don't want to be guessing. You can stand with one foot facing forward and another angled. Is your torso aimed at the straight forward foot or the angled foot? IK won't tell you accurately; it'll just make up a possible solution. This affects natural interaction with smaller regions of the torso as well. We're quite adapt at using our body (torso) as inventory. The concept of various pockets and belt pouches is ancient and we can blindly reach to these areas accurately IRL even if they're rather small. This is impossible right now as the torso doesn't rotate like it does in real life and doesn't accurately reflect our bending over at all.
The amount of interactions we do with our feet to the world is secondary to the possibilities the torso tracking would provide to self interactions. Accurate tracking of the feet also provides other problems to deal with. Right now you can be on uneven terrain and since you don't see your feet, nothing is a big deal. Once you track your feet, they'll either be clipping into the environment or floating over it. If you match the feet to the environment, then you get a mismatch between the VR and IRL positions. Better to tackle the easier to solve solution first. A belt for torso tracking can also conveniently carry a battery pack for wireless. Two birds with one stone.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Entertaining is not a description I would ascribe to this guy. Horrifying and annoying, perhaps.
1 Million views.... Christ on a bike, I was definitely born 25 years too late as I can be annoying as hell with out even trying.
You would be guessing but given how vive already tracks your head and hands accurately i think that the torso tracking would be good enough if feet would be added in.Onward looks derpy as hell but even in that your body is where you think it is 90% of the time when you are reaching for your holsters or any other item on your body.
Zalusithix
Member
Welcome to the Youtube generation. =P
90% of the time isn't good enough. If your controllers had a 10% error margin where they didn't do what you expected them to, they'd be in the trash.
That is why i think that with feet tracking that last 10% could be eliminated, and with the virtual body the problem is not as severe as controller not functioning properly, since it's not that off putting when your body is in a 20 to 40 degree angle instead of facing forward, which it will do as soon as you take a step.
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