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"I Need a New PC!" 2014 Part 1. 1080p and 60FPS is so last-gen and your 2500K is fine

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S

scogoth

Member
Coreda said:
Is there any good reason to use a 6GB GPU? EVGA are going to be offering an upgrade to existing GTX 780 users soon and I was wondering what benefit the extra GBs would be, from say a 3GB 780.
Click to expand...

Three 4K screens in 3D with 8x SSAA?

More likely would be CAD and GPU accelerated plugins for photoshop/premiere
 
Cuban Legend

Cuban Legend

Member
currently on a 560 (nonTi) have a Phenom X2 940 3.0 GHz

looking to upgrade the GPU with best bang for buck on the NVIDIA side... considering a 760-2GB($225) or 770-4GB($300). Which would be the best choice looking forward to this years PC titles (even the later ones).

Aiming for 1080p 60fps on high with SMAA.

Should I just wait for NV's 8X0 and jump on the new 8x0 midrange card released then? Or wait to buy any remaining 7x0 midrange refrreshes/ die refinements?
 
B

Bleepey

Member
neurosisxeno said:
Technically it runs all of them, the problem is that it will only keep up with i7's on games that use exactly 8 threads or are insanely GPU dependant. Intel CPU's can process many more Instructions Per Clock (IPC) which means given a single thread, an Intel CPU will plow through it substantially faster than an AMD CPU. This is affected by things like Clock Speed, but you would have to overclock the AMD CPU to oblivion just to keep up with the Intel CPU on a per thread basis. As it stands right now, the more CPU dependant a game is (think MMO's and RTS games) the more an Intel CPU will benefit you. Games like World of Warcraft, Starcraft II, FFXIV, Skyrim, and many others run better on an Intel i3 than even an AMD FX-8350 for this reason. Another thing that comes into play is which instruction sets are utilized, but that's a different beast entirely (looking at you Douchethesda).

Most games (almost all) use between 1 and 4 threads, and all Intel i-Series CPU's support up to 4 threads, so there's very few situations where an AMD CPU will outperform even an entry level i3-4xxx CPU, and almost none where an AMD CPU will outperform an i5-4670k. So when you compare something like an FX-8350 setup to an i5-4670k setup, you're looking at a CPU that performs worse, uses more power, and generates more heat. The only time I would recommend an AMD CPU is if you make a living working with heavily threaded applications--video editting basically.
Click to expand...

Ok. I think I can get a i5 4670k and mobo that supports 32gb of ram for £200. A gtx 660 for £120 or so. A 500w second hand power supply for £10, a case for £30, hdd for £40 and windows for £12. Am I missing anything?
 
BIGWORM

BIGWORM

Member
Bleepey said:
Ok. I think I can get a i5 4670k and mobo that supports 32gb of ram for £200. A gtx 660 for £120 or so. A 500w second hand power supply for £10, a case for £30, hdd for £40 and windows for £12. Am I missing anything?
Click to expand...

32GB of RAM is supreme overkill.
 
K

kharma45

Member
Bleepey said:
Ok. I think I can get a i5 4670k and mobo that supports 32gb of ram for £200. A gtx 660 for £120 or so. A 500w second hand power supply for £10, a case for £30, hdd for £40 and windows for £12. Am I missing anything?
Click to expand...

That sounds too cheap. Is it a Z87 board? What PSU? Sounds far too cheap.
 
S

sqwarlock

Member
I've decided on getting a 770 with my tax return, but I'm not sure if I should get the 4GB model instead of the 2GB I had planned. The 4GB pushes it slightly out of my budget, but it might be worth it?
 
cyen

cyen

Member
scogoth said:
Three 4K screens in 3D with 8x SSAA?

More likely would be CAD and GPU accelerated plugins for photoshop/premiere
Click to expand...

3x4K screens in 3d with 8xSSAA would run a game like BF4 at maybe 2 fps and the card would run out of vram probably even with 6GB.
 
G

Guerrillas in the Mist

Member
I'm thinking of finally retiring my ol' 560TI after years of meritous sercice for something new. I'm between the 770 and the 280x, but I'm not sure whether to wait for 20nm, and if I'll feel buyers remorse if I get something now...

What's the PCgaf consensus?
 
L

LilJoka

Member
Bleepey said:
Ok. I think I can get a i5 4670k and mobo that supports 32gb of ram for £200. A gtx 660 for £120 or so. A 500w second hand power supply for £10, a case for £30, hdd for £40 and windows for £12. Am I missing anything?
Click to expand...

Wrong strategy, parts in order of priority for 2nd hand:
Chassis
Fan/Heatsink
CPU
GPU
Motherboard
RAM

Parts you want to always buy new:
PSU
HDD

You definitely dont need to spend 200 on a motherboard, a lot of boards support 4 DIMM Slots for a lot cheaper, you can get a board for around £100.

For Mobo - Gigabyte GA-Z87M-D3H will do.
PSU - 500W Silverstone SST-ST50F-ES-230 - £40
RAM - Cheapest 32GB Kit (Although very unnecessary, 8GB is fine, and maybe 16Gb needed in 2-3 years).
Ive seen GTX 660 for £120, thats a good price, so may be no point even going 2nd hand here.

Im going to assume the £200 bundle for the 4670k and Mobo, is from Scan.co.uk. That Mobo is H81 chipset, which doesnt allow overclocking, so i useless for a K series CPU.
Either get a Haswell K Series CPU and a Z87 mobo or a Non K chip and a H series Motherboard. I would spend the extra £30 and get the Z87/K series from scan. Like this bundle Intel Core i5 4670K, S 1150, Haswell, Quad Core, 3.4GHz, 3.8GHz Turbo, 1200MHz GPU, 34x Ratio, 84W, Retail + Gigabyte GA-Z87-HD3, Intel Z87, S 1150, DDR3, SATA III - 6Gb/s, SATA RAID, PCIe 3.0 (x16), D-Sub (VGA) DVI-D HDMI, ATX
 
cyen

cyen

Member
Guerrillas in the Mist said:
I'm thinking of finally retiring my ol' 560TI after years of meritous sercice for something new. I'm between the 770 and the 280x, but I'm not sure whether to wait for 20nm, and if I'll feel buyers remorse if I get something now...

What's the PCgaf consensus?
Click to expand...

I dont think 20nm will be ready before q4 or even q1 2015. If you can wait until the end of the year you are better wating, if not just go for a 280x or a 770.
 
K

kharma45

Member
P

Pachimari

Member
scogoth said:
Yes, but most games don't support multi-monitor setups like AoE2HD does. That means you have to use nvidia control panel to setup a surround display using the two monitors which tricks games into think that there is only one really wide screen. Also any game that has a first/third person view will not work with only two screens because the cursor will be on the bezel between the two screens.



Change your TV's setup to Just Scan, 1:1, PC mode, Full mode or something like that to prevent overscan. Or if your TV doesn't have that option then you can go into Nvidia control panel and setup overscan compensation.
Click to expand...

I think it looks okay on my HDTV now and I got Steam on there but whenever I start up a game it starts up on my PC monitor. In a game like Metro: Last Light I can't go into Window mode and move it to my HDTV.
 
L

Linkup

Member
Rumble19 said:
My favourite mouse ever is based on the WMO body shape and has a great sensor and requires no bullshit drivers or anything. Zowie EC2.
Click to expand...

Didn't see your post until now. Ended up going with the Roccat Kova+, now that I've gotten used to it a bit I can't complain. Had to play around with the settings though.

Also grabbed a Logitech Wireless keyboard for $16 and suprised to find out how solid it is, very nice upgrade.
 
A

Alexalder

Banned
chualie said:
Thinking of selling my desktop PC and getting a laptop

i5-3570k 3.4 GHz (stock, never overclocked)
G.Skill 8GB DDR3 1600 RAM
Asus P8Z77-V LX Motherboard
Sapphire AMD HD 7950 3GB Video Card
Samsung 830 256GB SSD
Seagate Desktop 1TB SSHD
Corsair HX650 PSU
Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO heatsink/fan
Fractal Design Arc Midi Black Case

Not sure how much to sell this for and was wondering what you guys thought my PC would be worth.

Thanks for the help :)
Click to expand...
I would say around 1000$ used
 
B

Bleepey

Member
LilJoka said:
Wrong strategy, parts in order of priority for 2nd hand:
Chassis
Fan/Heatsink
CPU
GPU
Motherboard
RAM

Parts you want to always buy new:
PSU
HDD

You definitely dont need to spend 200 on a motherboard, a lot of boards support 4 DIMM Slots for a lot cheaper, you can get a board for around £100.

For Mobo - Gigabyte GA-Z87M-D3H will do.
PSU - 500W Silverstone SST-ST50F-ES-230 - £40
RAM - Cheapest 32GB Kit (Although very unnecessary, 8GB is fine, and maybe 16Gb needed in 2-3 years).
Ive seen GTX 660 for £120, thats a good price, so may be no point even going 2nd hand here.

Im going to assume the £200 bundle for the 4670k and Mobo, is from Scan.co.uk. That Mobo is H81 chipset, which doesnt allow overclocking, so i useless for a K series CPU.
Either get a Haswell K Series CPU and a Z87 mobo or a Non K chip and a H series Motherboard. I would spend the extra £30 and get the Z87/K series from scan. Like this bundle Intel Core i5 4670K, S 1150, Haswell, Quad Core, 3.4GHz, 3.8GHz Turbo, 1200MHz GPU, 34x Ratio, 84W, Retail + Gigabyte GA-Z87-HD3, Intel Z87, S 1150, DDR3, SATA III - 6Gb/s, SATA RAID, PCIe 3.0 (x16), D-Sub (VGA) DVI-D HDMI, ATX
Click to expand...

I can't see the link. I don't know anything about OCing I thought it damaged the CPU. Any other recommendations?
 
L

LilJoka

Member
Bleepey said:
I can't see the link. I don't know anything about OCing I thought it damaged the CPU. Any other recommendations?
Click to expand...

Try this
http://www.scan.co.uk/todayonly/index.aspx

Do a CTRL-F for Intel Core i5 4670K, S 1150, Haswell, Quad Core, 3.4GHz, 3.8GHz Turbo, 1200MHz GPU, 34x Ratio, 84W, Retail + Gigabyte GA-Z87-HD3, Intel Z87, S 1150, DDR3, SATA III - 6Gb/s, SATA RAID, PCIe 3.0 (x16), D-Sub (VGA) DVI-D HDMI, ATX

You may want to do some reading on overclocking as that is a factor in price on your initial budget. So work out now if you may do it in the future, i fully recommend getting a K chip and z87 board, and in the future putting a decent air cooler or close liquid cooling loop like a H80i to extract the maximum performance.

All overclocking degrades CPUs faster than normal, this may mean a modest overclock reduces the lifespan of a CPU from 15-20years to 10-15years. Its such a long time that its never really been proven, nobody can be bothered as in 6-7 years itll be ancient anyways.

If you dont want to overclock get a H or B series motherboard and a Non K chip.

One more option, ive seen a Gigabyte Z77 mATX on eBay for £86, and a i7 3770 for £176. Although not a K chip, it can be overclocked to the highest Turbo Multiplier, which will get you to 4.2Ghz. I run this overclock on one of my machines. This will get you a 4 core 8 thread CPU over the quad core only chip with haswell. Also it provides a smaller form factor motherboard. Thatll be £260.

I say this because for you its ideal to go mATX, you will probably never SLI/Xfire, and at most youll only want a PCIE Wireless N Card. This will mean a smaller PC chassis is required and no space is wasted. For Haswell an mATX config is £248 using the i5 4670k and a Z87 board.

So tradeoff is older architecture, vs hyper threading in those scenarios.
 
L

LilJoka

Member
Bleepey said:
How cheap can I get ram? What things should I look out for on a PSU?
Click to expand...

For PSUs you must check out the 12v Rail specification.
Power = Volts * Current.

PSU have 3 voltage rails, 12v, 5v, 3.3v. We are most concerned about 12v as that is what the CPU, GPU, HDD, Fans use.

So a good PSU has majority of its current on the 12V rail, a rubbish PSU has most of its current dedicated to the 5v and 3.3v Rails. Another thing to look out for is the efficiency rating, such as 80+ Bronze (minimum recommendation), Silver/Gold/Platinum.

For your kind of rig, youll want around 350-400W on the 12V rail, which means 400W/12V= ~30A. If the PSU supplies only 20A, thats not good enough - Youll see this in cheap 500W supplies. Some manufacturers may just lie, so best to buy from reputable brands. Corsair, Seasonic, Antec, Silverstone, XFX, Enermax are some to name.

After you find a good PSU that meets your 12v rail spec, then find individual reviews to check the overall performance, such as how clean the power delivery is, do the voltages deviate (ripple)? I also look at fan performance, as i hate my PC being loud.
 
I

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
Does anyone have experience with FreeNAS, OpenMediaVault, et al?

Basically I'm looking to repurpose my current desktop as a NAS of sorts. Basically because I'd hate just to throw away some perfectly good hardware when I build a new PC later this year.

It's a Q9450 + 8GB DDR3. There's no ECC RAM so ZFS with FreeNAS is pointless. But I figure that reusing this stuff would be better than buying a high-end home/consumer NAS from a company like Synology or QNAP.
 
F

Firebrand

Member
Apologies for repeating a question I posed yesterday, but there's a discount at a local store that expires tonight that I want to get in on.

I'm on a bit of a limited budget, yet I want a machine that's decent and doesn't become ancient immediately. I've been trying to see what I can cut down on and these are the aspects where I've not decided yet:

CPU: i5 4670K -or- i7 4770 (non-K)
GPU: 760 2GB -or- 760 4GB -or- 770 2GB
Cooler: Intel stock -or- Hyper 212 Evo -or- ???
(Bolded are what I'm thinking right now)

My reasoning for going with the CPU over the immediately faster GPU is that being on chipset 8 I'll be stuck with this CPU unless I want to switch out the motherboard and likely RAM eventually, whereas the GPU can be replaced a bit easier. When I got my current computer I was choosing between the Core 2 Duo and lower-clocked Quad and went with the Duo because "quads are barely used anyway"... well, it took like a year before Duos ended up struggling with crappy console ports. I'd like to not repeat that mistake, even though hyperthreading obviously isn't the same as actual physical cores.

2GB seems a bit low, at the same time, 4GB seems wasted on the 760 and the 770/4GB is above my budget atm. 770 2GB seems like the same performance per dollar (or SEK in this case!).

As for the cooler... I hear the Intel cooler is barely capable of cooling stock speeds and is loud? I've got a bit of tinnitus so it'd be nice if the machine didn't roar when doing medium-load desktop stuff, I don't know if the Hyper Evo is quiet though or just efficient at cooling. I won't be doing any overclocking on this particular machine, hence the non-K CPU and an H87 motherboard.

Thanks for any input you might have, looking forward to finally getting a new rig and lamenting its inadequacy in six months.
 
S

scogoth

Member
Firebrand said:
Apologies for repeating a question I posed yesterday, but there's a discount at a local store that expires tonight that I want to get in on.

I'm on a bit of a limited budget, yet I want a machine that's decent and doesn't become ancient immediately. I've been trying to see what I can cut down on and these are the aspects where I've not decided yet:

CPU: i5 4670K -or- i7 4770 (non-K)
GPU: 760 2GB -or- 760 4GB -or- 770 2GB
Cooler: Intel stock -or- Hyper 212 Evo -or- ???
(Bolded are what I'm thinking right now)

My reasoning for going with the CPU over the immediately faster GPU is that being on chipset 8 I'll be stuck with this CPU unless I want to switch out the motherboard and likely RAM eventually, whereas the GPU can be replaced a bit easier. When I got my current computer I was choosing between the Core 2 Duo and lower-clocked Quad and went with the Duo because "quads are barely used anyway"... well, it took like a year before Duos ended up struggling with crappy console ports. I'd like to not repeat that mistake, even though hyperthreading obviously isn't the same as actual physical cores.

2GB seems a bit low, at the same time, 4GB seems wasted on the 760 and the 770/4GB is above my budget atm. 770 2GB seems like the same performance per dollar (or SEK in this case!).

As for the cooler... I hear the Intel cooler is barely capable of cooling stock speeds and is loud? I've got a bit of tinnitus so it'd be nice if the machine didn't roar when doing medium-load desktop stuff, I don't know if the Hyper Evo is quiet though or just efficient at cooling. I won't be doing any overclocking on this particular machine, hence the non-K CPU and an H87 motherboard.

Thanks for any input you might have, looking forward to finally getting a new rig and lamenting its inadequacy in six months.
Click to expand...

The 4670K would serve you better than the 4770 would especially if you are getting the 212. The 4670K with overclock performs much better then a 4770. I know you say you don't want to overclock but if you are looking for value and longevity overclocking is the best way to go.

If you are really adamant about not overclocking then the stock intel cooler is fine with the 4770
 
M

Mozendo

Member
Firebrand said:
[/b]
GPU: 760 2GB -or- 760 4GB -or- 770 2GB

2GB seems a bit low, at the same time, 4GB seems wasted on the 760 and the 770/4GB is above my budget atm. 770 2GB seems like the same performance per dollar (or SEK in this case!).
.
Click to expand...

2GB on either models, but prefer you get the 770 if you can.

Pretty sure everyone can agree that 4GB is a waste on the 760 like you said.
 
Bboy AJ

Bboy AJ

My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
If you recall, my PSU died and I had to replace it. Thinking back, before my PSU died completely, my PC took *much* longer to boot. Is longer boot times a symptom of a dying PSU?

I replaced my PSU and boot times are blazing fast again.
 
B

Bleepey

Member
Before I further look for cheaper alternatives here is what I got so far.

CPU £150
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/151245216091?nav=SEARCH

Mobo £50-60

Hdd £40


Ram £50
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B006XB56VI/

PSU £35
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00DZ6R9GE/
GPU
https://www.google.co.uk/aclk?sa=L&...vice=m&icep_msku_flag=n&icep_cbt=n&adtype=pla

So this is looking at around £400. Just a few quick quick questions. What makes the £50 ram so awesome? Is there a better GPU I can get and can I save money anywhere?My budget has jumped £200. :(
 
BIGWORM

BIGWORM

Member
Alright PC GAF, here's a question that's been in the back of my mind for some time, now: Would I benefit (maybe greatly) if I slap another 8GB of RAM in my system? Currently running 8GB OCZ Vengeance in my i5 4670K with a GTX 680.
 
L

LilJoka

Member
Bleepey said:
Before I further look for cheaper alternatives here is what I got so far.

CPU £150
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/151245216091?nav=SEARCH

Mobo £50-60

Hdd £40

Ram £50
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B006XB56VI/

PSU £35
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00DZ6R9GE/
GPU
https://www.google.co.uk/aclk?sa=L&...vice=m&icep_msku_flag=n&icep_cbt=n&adtype=pla

So this is looking at around £400. Just a few quick quick questions. What makes the £50 ram so awesome? Is there a better GPU I can get and can I save money anywhere?My budget has jumped £200. :(
Click to expand...

The Ram isnt awesome at all, its average. 2 things that arent ideal, its 1333Mhz CL9, 1600Mhz CL9 is preferred. Next its 1x8GB, the Haswell platform supports Dual Channel Memory, so half the bandwidth is lost by only using a single DIMM, preferably you'd get 2x4GB DIMMs. The quoted speeds are the DDR speeds, meaning in single channel its just 667Mhz.

Ram price has been inflating in the last 6 months which is annoying.

Total price is creeping up, but itll be totally well worth it, you dont want to be regretting that you bought a system that cut corners everywhere 6 months down the line. Things that may not bother you right now, will soon start to annoy you.

Also when your Palit GPU dies you will cry when you see their crap RMA service. Gigabyte are the best in the UK, EVGA and Asus are difficult, but not too bad. MSI are not too bad either.
Heres a better offer for the GTX 660
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gigabyte-NVIDIA-GTX660-PCI-E-Graphics/dp/B0099AOAUI/ref=pd_cp_computers_0
 
K

kennah

Member
BIGWORM said:
Alright PC GAF, here's a question that's been in the back of my mind for some time, now: Would I benefit (maybe greatly) if I slap another 8GB of RAM in my system? Currently running 8GB OCZ Vengeance in my i5 4670K with a GTX 680.
Click to expand...
Do you do massive multitasking of video/sound/photo editing software? Then yes. If just games then there'll be literally no difference.
 
BIGWORM

BIGWORM

Member
kennah said:
Do you do massive multitasking of video/sound/photo editing software? Then yes. If just games then there'll be literally no difference.
Click to expand...

Figured, but I figured there's games coming out with more beefy requirements, and maybe it wouldn't hurt to future-proof my RAM a little bit.
 
A

Azulsky

Member
BIGWORM said:
Figured, but I figured there's games coming out with more beefy requirements, and maybe it wouldn't hurt to future-proof my RAM a little bit.
Click to expand...

If you have money to do it and dont have other more pressing upgrades then yeah do it.

Its one of the fish grows to the size of the fishbowl situations.

I would only go past 16GB if you are running VM's.
 
crazepharmacist

crazepharmacist

Member
Well I just want to give an update on my wireless adapter I bought recently. My old one, a cheapo USB one was giving me constant dropouts, slow connection speeds, high ping, and worst of all, it would never connect upon computer boot. I'd have to plug the thing in and out a bunch of times to get it to work properly. Well I just bought this thing: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F42V83C/?tag=neogaf0e-20

And it's been working flawlessly so far. Extremely fast connecting upon boot, pings are always super low(usually 12-13ms via speedtest.net) and I'm maxing out my connection. My ISP is finally my bottleneck, as it should be. I'm getting 100-150 Mbps connection via the Asus software panel. I'm not even using an A/C router. Just an old wireless N so far and I've still noticed a massive improvement. It sits right above my graphics card inside my computer, so obviously it can get pretty hot in there but this thing has a heat-sink on it to mitigate any thermal issues. I recommend this thing for anyone looking at a wireless solution for their desktops.
 
F

Firebrand

Member
scogoth said:
The 4670K would serve you better than the 4770 would especially if you are getting the 212. The 4670K with overclock performs much better then a 4770. I know you say you don't want to overclock but if you are looking for value and longevity overclocking is the best way to go.

If you are really adamant about not overclocking then the stock intel cooler is fine with the 4770
Click to expand...
Yeah, I considered it, but I don't know if I have the patience for that stuff anymore, I'd probably just worry about the stability everytime an application misbehaves, haha. There's still the TurboBoost thingy for a light extra kick, no? I don't know how well that works and if the frequency shifts can cause stutter.

Mozendo said:
2GB on either models, but prefer you get the 770 if you can.

Pretty sure everyone can agree that 4GB is a waste on the 760 like you said.
Click to expand...
Probably shouldn't since I was trying to save a bit of cash, but I went with the 770 2GB for now. I don't think the 2GB will last a full gen, but I anticipate a GPU upgrade before the CPU becomes obsolete.

Thanks guys! Thing won't be ready for shipping for a few days, so if anyone else has some thoughts I'd still love to hear it.
 
maneil99

maneil99

Member
BIGWORM said:
Specs? You happen to catch the stop error code?
Click to expand...

Driver_corrupted_expool
Windows 8.1 x64
780 GTX wasn't OCed at the time
3570k 4.7ghz
Gene V 1802 Bios
2x4gb DDR3 1600mhz


Bluescreenviewer can't detect which driver caused it however the BSOD was in a lower resolution then my monitor so I think it might be display ( Nvidia ). I just used DDU and I am reinstalling the drivers as we speak. I have a minidump if someone wants to see what caused it.
 
S

scogoth

Member
Firebrand said:
Yeah, I considered it, but I don't know if I have the patience for that stuff anymore, I'd probably just worry about the stability everytime an application misbehaves, haha. There's still the TurboBoost thingy for a light extra kick, no? I don't know how well that works and if the frequency shifts can cause stutter.
Click to expand...

It is really dead easy to overclock these days but if it is really something that worries you then there is no point in paying a premium for the K model. The 212 will be quieter even with no overclock but its pretty overkill. I don't find the stock cooler to be that loud but I also had 2x GTX470s that didn't bother me and those were like jet turbines. Could always try the stock cooler and if its too loud pickup a 212, its not that hard to replace a cooler (if your case has a cutout for the backplate behind the motherboard).
 
M

Miguel81

Member
Bleepey said:
What games does the 8320 run, how are you finding it?
Click to expand...

I have a 7950 paired with it, so it runs most games much better than consoles would. The problem is stuttering, which is pretty noticeable as I'm playing Sleeping Dogs right now. Thank god I'm limited to 1080/60.
 
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