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[Iwatas Magic Sports Coat]

If Nintendo screws up anything with Cafe, it will be giving it only 512 MB of RAM.

Please Nintendo, don't be that dumb.

Seriously. My 8 year old computer has 1 gig of RAM. The thing needs at least 2 gigs to be "future proof"

 

[Lupin the Third]

It's as if you averaged the two numbers together and called it most likely somehow.

Was just going off of what a poster in the previous Café thread said about Moore's law and how it compared with the rumored console specs from 01net and IGN and what the Wii had for flash memory, RAM, etc. It was a pretty interesting post, because it wasn't far off from what we'd been hearing about the system's specs...

 

[Darryl]

Keep in mind Cafe won't be coming until 2012 so a 4870 could be less than $100 by then...

I bought my 4870 on Newegg for $105 retail like a year ago. I'm sure Nintendo is gonna get these pretty cheap.

 

[watershed]

I say that simply because we didn't even get a direct feed trailer from GDC for Skyward Sword. Which has led to people thinking all the colors are washed out or some shit.

Now that we're getting the first taste of the next generation of consoles, I'd be very disappointed if we don't get some high quality, direct feed trailers and gameplay footage.

Nintendo did a really good job with providing media for last year's E3. Given the stakes of this year's E3 for them (cafe, and full 3ds focus, not just reveal) I think they'll do even better.
Also GDC and E3 are 2 very different events.

 

[Lonely1]

Nintendo isn't buying 4850's of the shelves, though. The rumors point to a custom design based on an 4850. And Im sure they will use GDDR5, since Nintendo loves fast RAM.

 

[nextgeneration]

Keep in mind Cafe won't be coming until 2012 so a 4870 could be less than $100 by then...

Better yet, maybe they can even upgrade the graphics card, since prices will continue to drop.

 

[Vic]

Keep in mind Cafe won't be coming until 2012 so a 4870 could be less than $100 by then...

In the end, how much a 4870 is selling for right now or next year in the marketplace is irrelevant to the question of how much it's going to cost Nintendo to use a similar technology.

Better yet, maybe they can even upgrade the graphics card, since prices will continue to drop.

You mean the GPU.

 

[Mr_Brit]

Based on these specs, it's closer to 5 times as powerful.
And as it stands, there's nothing on the market currently or planned that will run on a console that would put it as far ahead as the 360 was over the Wii.

20nm production process will be widely available by the time Sony/MS next gen systems launch. This should more than halve the amount of power a comparable current GPU uses. Combine that with more efficient GPU designs in the future and you easily have the possiblity of a GTX 580 level GPU coming at around 100W. Assuming Sony/MS launch with a 150-200W system that leaves plenty of space for the rest of the components.

You're also assuming that the CPU and RAM speed will be comparable to Wii 2 when we have absolutely no idea what these next systems will use. For all we know Nintendo could cripple the system with 1GB of GDDR3 RAM.

 

[antonz]

Nintendo isn't buying 4850's of the shelves, though. The rumors point to a custom design based on an 4850. And Im sure they will use GDDR5, since Nintendo loves fast RAM.

Yeah which at the very least basically moves it upto a 4870 minimum performance wise.

The reason to go this method too is wattage. Beefing up the 4850 ti 4870 level through a ram upgrade cuts about 40 watts off instead of just using a 4870

 

[Van Owen]

In the end, how much a 4870 is selling for right now or next year in the marketplace is irrelevant to the question of how much it's going to cost Nintendo to use a similar technology.

Yeah, it will arguably cost less since it will be mass produced.

 

[SneakyStephan]

I don't understand why they wouldn't go with a modified 6850.
They are supposed to have an improved architecture, much better performance/watt so they'd be easier to cool in a tiny console shell.

Question: are we assuming similar clocks as a hd4870/4850? (I guess we are if people are comparing performance to the pc parts)
I seriously doubt we'll get that, rv700 cards were hot little bastards at the clocks they were being sold at (with almost zero overclocking room).


There is no room in a console shell to house a bulky pc heatsink and fan.

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/sapphire_toxic_4870_review/images/03.jpg
These are the kind of heavy bulky 2 slot coolers required to stop the 4870 from sounding like a hairdryer.

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=66101&stc=1&d=1215413753
Shows the size of the pcb, the cooler covers all of it and is thick enough to cover 2 pci slots.

 

[Haint]

Considering this cycle is shifted a couple years from the historic 5 year frame, this reads like a nearly 1:1 repeat of Wii Vs. Gamecube. A somewhat noticeable, if somewhat underwhelming comparison to the "last gen" equivalent. Not that this would be (or was) unexpected, but it does make all the "Back to the Arms Race, Back to Hardcore, Stealing PS360's Dudebro's Playerbase" hype look really stupid.

 

[bgassassin]

Obvious solution to the RAM issue.

When that thread a little while back came up where devs were talking about more RAM being needed this time around, that is what I thought about. Allow gamers who want to make the upgrade be able to add something like this. That upgrade made Hybrid Heaven look good. That reminds me. Forget the haters Konami. Where is my Hybrid Heaven 2?

 

[IchigoSharingan]

Can anyone translate this information into something people who know nothing about this type of stuff would understand?

8800 GT is faster than two 7800's (PS3 GPU). An ATI 4850 is much faster than an 8800GT.



In other words, if Nintendo is going with at least an ATI 4850, Wii 2 is gonna fucking ROCK the house.

Ams very pleased.

 

[Vic]

Yeah, it will arguably cost less since it will be mass produced.

And we don't know about the arrangements between Nintendo & AMD for the upcoming console.

 

[Lupin the Third]

20nm production process will be widely available by the time Sony/MS next gen systems launch. This should more than halve the amount of power a comparable current GPU uses. Combine that with more efficient GPU designs in the future and you easily have the possiblity of a GTX 580 level GPU coming at around 100W. Assuming Sony/MS launch with a 150-200W system that leaves plenty of space for the rest of the components.

Is there any special indication that GPU design will significantly improve in efficiency soon?

Also, do launch units for any system come with chips that tiny? Aren't they always like, 90nm at first?

These are sincere questions. I'm pretty clueless on this sort of thing.

 

[Lonely1]

The efficiency actually dropped a bit with the upgrade to Dx11.

Question: are we assuming similar clocks as a hd4870/4850? (I guess we are if people are comparing performance to the pc parts)
I seriously doubt we'll get that, rv700 cards were hot little bastards at the clocks they were being sold at (with almost zero overclocking room).
.

Is almost certain that Nintendo will use a modern production process.

 

[Krowley]

It already is. In the UK you can pick up brand new 1GB 4870s for around £60 which is less than $100, Nintendo could easily purchase bulk amounts of 4850s for around $50 a piece.

If these specs are true then Nintendo better not charge more than $300.

Depends on the controller price. 350 is possible.

 

[antonz]

I don't understand why they wouldn't go with a modified 6850.
They are supposed to have an improved architecture, much better performance/watt so they'd be easier to cool in a tiny console shell.

Question: are we assuming similar clocks as a hd4870/4850?
I seriously doubt we'll get that, rv700 cards were hot little bastards at the clocks they were being sold at (with almost zero overclocking room).

There is no room in a console shell to house a bulky pc heatsink and fan.

Well the word is the Cafe is as large as the original 360 so Nintendo is seemingly not going for 3 dvd cases this time.

I do get your point on the 6850. I think the issue is a few things. From a Flops standpoint 6850 is basically 1x PS360 extra performance over the 4870 while costing a big enough jump in cash.

If Nintendo feels they can tweak the 4850/4870 enough to get a 5-6x PS360 level performance they may not feel the extra cash is a worthy investment for that extra 1x.

 

[Mr_Brit]

Is there any special indication that GPU design will significantly improve in efficiency soon?

Also, do launch units for any system come with chips that tiny? Aren't they always like, 90nm at first?

These are sincere questions. I'm pretty clueless on this sort of thing.

Both the 5000 and 6000 series from AMD are quite a bit more efficient than their predececssor even though they're all built on a 40nm process and use basically the same achitecture. By the time Sony/MS new systems are out we'll have new architectures from both AMD and nvidia and they'll be a lot more efficient as they won't be adding new features like the previous generations but will focus on pure power.

Depends on the controller price. 350 is possible.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the controller price. Depending on its complexity it could easily make it a $400 system but $350 is more likely.

 

[watershed]

Depends on the controller price. 350 is possible.

Controller and hype bump 3ds style.

 

[jambo]

Can't wait for E3, totally staying up all night to watch the streams.

Cafe = Gohan SSJ2

 

[Chuck Norris]

8800 GT is faster than two 7800's (PS3 GPU). An ATI 4850 is much faster than an 8800GT.



In other words, if Nintendo is going with at least an ATI 4850, Wii 2 is gonna fucking ROCK the house.

Ams very pleased.

You realise that doesn't quantify to that much at all?

PS3's gigaflops capacity with CPU and GPU doubles the 360's. We have all seen how little that has proven to do anything.

 

[jj984jj]

But isn't the anime style just inherently much more popular in Japan, for cultural reasons?

Assuming this, you would expect most of their games (console or handheld) to have this popular-in-japan art style.

Nintendo doesn't really abide by the anime style, but what does that have to do with how effective they are with the technology in their console? Assuming Retro does something new with more realistic style for Cafe (which I'm not expecting honestly), that doesn't mean it'll look better than anything EAD makes on a technical level. If it were a developer with experience working on HD consoles I'd see where you're coming from, but I don't see anything that would give Retro an advantage here and I disagree that culture makes a difference.

 

[SneakyStephan]

The efficiency actually dropped a bit with the upgrade to Dx11.


Is almost certain that Nintendo will use a modern production process.

Okay, but again then why not switch to the architecture of the 68xx series and get the benifits from that too if they aren't really going to use the 65nm rv700.

Cost would surely increase when having to redesign it for the new manufacturing process?
When they could use the existing one from the new cards.

I'm just trying to understand it here =)

And we can at least conclude that they'll either switch to 40 or even 32nm, or we get an underclocked gimp version.

edit: also the 4850's gddr 3 ram bandwidth really gimped it (already been said in this topic too), and ocing my vram on my 4870 did wonders for benchmarks.
So I'm guessing lower ram clocks would hurt performance just as bad.

 

[shadyspace]

Well the word is the Cafe is as large as the original 360 so Nintendo is seemingly not going for 3 dvd cases this time.

I do get your point on the 6850. I think the issue is a few things. From a Flops standpoint 6850 is basically 1x PS360 extra performance over the 4870 while costing a big enough jump in cash.

If Nintendo feels they can tweak the 4850/4870 enough to get a 5-6x PS360 level performance they may not feel the extra cash is a worthy investment for that extra 1x.

That's gonna be one hell of a pocket they'll have to sew into Iwata's jacket.

 

[Vic]

That's gonna be one hell of a pocket they'll have to sew into Iwata's jacket.

:lol

 

[slidewinder]

Okay, but again then why not switch to the architecture of the 68xx series and get the benifits from that too if they aren't really going to use the 65nm rv700.

Yeah, it's much more likely that they'll be using a 40nm part, so maybe a 4770 upclocked a bit (which I think would about match a 4850). IGN's obviously just going on the barest of hints, and almost nobody in any of these Cafe tech threads on GAF has any idea at all what they're talking about.

 

[snesfreak]

That's gonna be one hell of a pocket they'll have to sew into Iwata's jacket.

LOL

 

[Instro]

Okay, but again then why not switch to the architecture of the 68xx series and get the benifits from that too if they aren't really going to use the 65nm rv700.

Cost would surely increase when having to redesign it for the new manufacturing process?
When they could use the existing one from the new cards.

I'm just trying to understand it here =)

The assumption is they have been working on this console for a few years now, so the 6xxx series probably wasnt available for customization and ordering. Id imagine once you start using certain hardware you cant just switch halfway through designing a console.

 

[apana]

Games with graphics like MGS4, etc are up there with the best of Western games, but they are few and far between in Japan.

And like I said in my post, it's also a "company culture" thing...it seems Nintendo takes the prevailing Japanese philosophy of "anime artstyle" to an even bigger extreme.

I think you're right. I got some early pics of what HD Zelda will look like:

 

[SneakyStephan]

Why does zelda LINK (almost made a deadly mistake) look like a girl?

I am so confused!

The assumption is they have been working on this console for a few years now, so the 6xxx series probably wasnt available for customization and ordering. Id imagine once you start using certain hardware you cant just switch halfway through designing a console.

Well that's a bummer, you'd think AMD would have shown them a roadmap and had them take into account the timeframe when they made the decision.

Especially since the 68xx are just a bandaid 40nm redesign to make up for the 28nm process being delayed by TSMC so it's not exactly behind schedule either.

 

[Lupin the Third]

Why does zelda LINK (almost made a deadly mistake) look like a girl?

I am so confused!

HD adds the girlyness?

 

[Jarmel]

Wait so is the GPU matched to 4850 speeds or the design is based off of the 4850 but probably clocked higher?

 

[Krowley]

For whatever reason, I don't have any skepticism about nintendo's ability to deliver wow-factor graphics on an HD system. I don't think there will be any visible sign of a learning curve in the big EAD games, or Retro, or anybody except for maybe teams that have mostly worked on portables. I absolutely expect them to be delivering graphics at a very high level on their first crop of games. It's fucking nintendo. They make things happen, and they don't "lag behind" when it comes to talent.

I'll be shocked if their games at E3 underwhelm in any way, or fail to show some of the real potential of this hardware.

edit// to clarify: I'll be shocked if the bigger games underwhelm... There will probably be a few titles that aren't mindblowing.

 

[antonz]

Wait so is the GPU matched to 4850 speeds or the design is based off of the 4850 but probably clocked higher?

4850 is said to be similar to the design. We really dont know anything beyond that. If they upgrade the ram from DDR3 to DDR5 on the GPU it basically bumps it upto 4870 performance levels. Die shrinking and other tweaks could push the card further. At the minimum expect 4 PS360 duct taped togeather upto maybe 6 PS360 duct taped togeather

 

[Lonely1]

Both the 5000 and 6000 series from AMD are quite a bit more efficient than their predececssor even though they're all built on a 40nm process and use basically the same achitecture.

Actually, the 4870 and 5770 are almost on par (on Dx9-10.1 games). Despite the second having a bit more transistor count and same clock speed.

 

[Nirolak]

Wait so is the GPU matched to 4850 speeds or the design is based off of the 4850 but probably clocked higher?

Good question, but I'm making the assumption that their source just told them which parts to pick instead of giving vague specifications like clock speed and having IGN select the parts based on that.

 

[IchigoSharingan]

Is there any special indication that GPU design will significantly improve in efficiency soon?

Also, do launch units for any system come with chips that tiny? Aren't they always like, 90nm at first?

These are sincere questions. I'm pretty clueless on this sort of thing.

It depends on the nm process at the time. A new nm process may have a high initial outlay and its costs come down over maturity, so it may be wiser to stick to a mature 40nm than a fresh new 32nm process. Sometimes it's cheaper to go the other way around.

Console manufacturers have to be quite attentive to what year they choose to make orders at semiconductor fabs. Nintendo chose 90nm because it was the cheapest and most mature node. If they had gone to 65nm the Wii wouldn't have been able to meet its mass market price.


For a better understanding, read the roadmap here

http://www.itrs.net/Links/2010ITRS/2010Update/ToPost/2010_Update_Overview.pdf


For quick bits:

http://www.commonplatform.com/technology/advanced_technologies.asp


So you have two important aspects: process and design. The nm process has to be proven and reliable, and the design of the chip must also be excellent.

Assuming the nm node is good, then all a company needs to focus on is design. AMD has worked wonders around clunky nm process (Evergreen is proof of this) and design their GPUs around the process to churn out good products. What's the best option to increase accuracy and performance? Shaders. AMD's Fusion Developer Conference will cover this. Pay attention to it. Watch and read as much as you can. It will be interesting to see what developments NV has in store too.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

Wait so is the GPU matched to 4850 speeds or the design is based off of the 4850 but probably clocked higher?

Just based. No doubt it will be customized.

 

[antonz]

The only thing that really sticks out that I wish I could get clarification on is the CPU comment they make in the video. They state Nintendo are getting a Custom Tri Core from Intel. Did they mean to say IBM or are they really jumping ship

 

[IchigoSharingan]

You realise that doesn't quantify to that much at all?

PS3's gigaflops capacity with CPU and GPU doubles the 360's. We have all seen how little that has proven to do anything.

And the development world has had more than enough time to understand the high number of bottlenecks on the PS3. Nintendo's N64 also had bottlenecks, mainly due to memory. Nintendo has had enough time to research those kinds of issues and stamp them out.

 

[Nirolak]

The only thing that really sticks out that I wish I could get clarification on is the CPU comment they make in the video. They state Nintendo are getting a Custom Tri Core from Intel. Did they mean to say IBM or are they really jumping ship

I would be willing to bet they meant IBM and just messed up.

 

[SneakyStephan]

http://3dmark.com/3dm06/11582371

This graph shows pretty well what cpu and gpu clocks can do to a 3 core cpu and a 4870...

Such a huge difference in performance.
Sure it's not ingame performance and just a benchmark, but still.

 

[Buckethead]

I sure as hell hope it looks better than that.

 

[watershed]

edit// to clarify: I'll be shocked if the bigger games underwhelm... There will probably be a few titles that aren't mindblowing.

The ones from Nintendo that will be underwhelming will be the new Mii focused games. I don't know how Mii's could be made impressive in HD unless Nintendo makes them more like 360's avatars but I don't think that's happening. Also I don't care for the 360's avatars. But I imagine games featuring Miis will just look like wii sports resort in HD.

 

[SolarPowered]

It's awesome to hear something new. This is definitely turning out better than expected in the graphical and CPU side of things. The 4850/70 models will rock the house for years to come and they'll stand tall against MS and Sony offerings even if they follow the loss leader model again. I just hope that Nintendo opts for that extra 512mb of RAM. It'll make a real difference and Nintendo has historically been fond of the RAM components in their consoles.

It's going to be a hell of an E3 if this console actually has 3x-5x the power of a PS3 or 360.

Edit: I just watched the IGN video. It was pretty good in my opinion.

 

[pirata]

Hmm...I'm not going to get my hopes up. After all, we don't know how good the hints that IGN is getting are. But if this is accurate, then it's nice to see Nintendo finally rocket out of the previous century. How, if they could only get the online thing right...

 

[Chuck Norris]

And the development world has had more than enough time to understand the high number of bottlenecks on the PS3. Nintendo's N64 also had bottlenecks, mainly due to memory. Nintendo has had enough time to research those kinds of issues and stamp them out.

Bottlenecks don't make or deny a generational difference.

 

[ReyVGM]

Virtual Fighter was ported to the Genesis.

That was Virtua Fighter 2 and it wasn't polygonal.