You think it's a shame that people are picking devices with more functionality?
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Is Sony making a mistake by betting the farm on 'true' gamers?
- Thread starter alexandros
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Kun Aguero
Member
Sony need to appeal to the core, that's their early install base and will give them momentum. They can release more peripherals/apps that appeal to the casual market as the gen progresses.
Yeah. Of course looking at F2P it wasn't even hardware that limited the amount of 2P games on the PS3. It seemed more like policies around updates and such as well as the porting to PS3. The latter should go away with the PS4. Hopefully the former is fixed.
Of course the issue of getting someone to buy something to play free games that they can play on the PC they have is a issue.
That's not to say more couldn't be done. I think the app store model should be used rather than the exclusive developer model of the past. They should be letting folks download a SDK, let them write their game, pay a developer/distribution fee and then take 30% of whatever sales are made.
Giant Panda
Member
How is going after casuals a good strategy though? They're the most unpredictable market and I doubt any console could win them over.
I'm not sure I understand your comparison of PS4 and high end graphic cards. Outside of its RAM, PS4 has pretty average specs.
Manmademan
Member
I'd agree entirely. there are 70 million ps3's in the market, and they're still $269.99. This is insane. Every other gen dropped prices MUCH more quickly than this.
the bottom end of the market is still priced out of it. There are plenty of gamers who would LOVE to jump in, but a Ps3 and 360 are simply too expensive. I'm talking those gamers that buy in at $99 or $149 or so. The PS2 hit $149 in 2004- it was simply hitting a much wider market.
With the PS4 not playing PS3 games natively, we may see sony dropping the price of the PS3 down to $149 or $199 levels to try to court this market, and using the PS4 to cater to the needs of those at the high end.
Yes.
You mention cost implying an expensive box is no longer a wise investment. The point is that tablets are expensive and that has not kept them from being disruptive or being used as the examples of disruptive trends. They were successful in this regard because they demonstrated their value to consumers in other ways (e.g. They played Netflix on the go, games were free or $.99, etc. ). Just because Sony's box is expensive doesn't mean it won't offer a great value proposition to justify its success. Making something cheap is not a path to success any more than making something expensive is a path to failure.
Look, I agree with this, but what you appear to be saying is that the success of Sony as a company must depend on its gaming division. We know this isn't true. Making its game division as profitable as possible is part of the company's road to recovery, but that won't fix shitty overpriced TVs anymore than the next Xbox can fix Windows 8. If the Playstation can be integrated fully into the Sony ecosystem (and I fully believe that was their intent with Gaikai acquisition) then this may boost their other departments, but the Playstation 4 can thrive regardless.
Indeed. The PS3 is likely going to be a healthy source of revenue for them for years to come. I fully expect most high profile third party games to release for PS4, Durango, PS3, and 360 (probably WiiU as well, but we'll see), at least through 2014, meaning Sony's bets will be leveraged to an extent by this bizarrely lengthy generation.
partyphone
Banned
Uh. Tablets are awesome. It's how I consume news while eating breakfast or watching TV. And it's convenient for viewing porn while still in bed.
The Nexus 7 is great and only $200.
I assume its the suggestion that high end graphics cards are mostly bought by 'gamers' and so if there's a market for PC 'gamers' there should be one for lower cost consoles for 'gamers'.
It may be a mistake. The gaming world has certainly changed the past few years. 60 dollar games are hard to swallow now (Even I wait for price drops these days).
But honestly, I'm happy their focus is on gamers. All signs point to them making a console that I really want to buy - a console where games I like will thrive. Just like the PS3.
But honestly, I'm happy their focus is on gamers. All signs point to them making a console that I really want to buy - a console where games I like will thrive. Just like the PS3.
Are you being sarcastic or serious bro? Tbh, most people I talk to don't really want them either - they seem most popular with kids.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
I feel they're a little misguided, yes. Eurogamer has a roundup of some analysts' thoughts about the PS4 reveal, and they're mostly positive, but the reason I mention this is a quote from one of them:
To which Eurogamer's staffer added:
Why indeed. The thing is, to make your platform attractive to wider audiences in order to take full advantage of the subscription approach, you also need to have broader entertainment content available (all the better if it's exclusive), more casual experiences, and preferably a unique cool selling point to capture their imagination. I'd say that at this point PS4 definitely lacks the latter (we'll see if they're saving something huge for E3, but going by what we already know, I'm finding that unlikely), and as for the rest, Sony seems to be laser-focused on the core gamer for the time being, not the wider masses. That used to be a fine strategy in previous generations, since early adopters of these expensive, powerful machines are usually core gamers and tech enthusiasts. But what if Microsoft goes with the subscription model (that they already successfully experimented with) from the very start? They have the ambition to serve both gamers and more casual users alike. Going by the studios they've opened in recent years, they're heavily investing in core games, casual affairs and more inclusive experiences and exclusive entertainment content. In other words, they seem to be covering all their bases so I doubt that they'll only be concentrating on gamers when they reveal and then launch Durango. Now, if they combine that with a subscription model from the very start, and it's not hard imagining them going for that, they could quickly amass a large following, creating a huge gap between themselves and their competitors. What was it? "More like Grand Canyon than Silicon Valley"? Sony would find themselves in a really bad situation, playing catch-up again.
But who knows what will happen. Maybe Microsoft opts for a different strategy (although I doubt that), maybe Sony changes their messaging and focus in the following months (also unlikely, but not impossible), and maybe the market decides that it just doesn't care either way. There are still many unknowns, but I do believe that Sony's adherence to the old strategy of "core first, others later" might get them in serious trouble.
Doug Creutz said:
To which Eurogamer's staffer added:
Robert Purchese said:
Why indeed. The thing is, to make your platform attractive to wider audiences in order to take full advantage of the subscription approach, you also need to have broader entertainment content available (all the better if it's exclusive), more casual experiences, and preferably a unique cool selling point to capture their imagination. I'd say that at this point PS4 definitely lacks the latter (we'll see if they're saving something huge for E3, but going by what we already know, I'm finding that unlikely), and as for the rest, Sony seems to be laser-focused on the core gamer for the time being, not the wider masses. That used to be a fine strategy in previous generations, since early adopters of these expensive, powerful machines are usually core gamers and tech enthusiasts. But what if Microsoft goes with the subscription model (that they already successfully experimented with) from the very start? They have the ambition to serve both gamers and more casual users alike. Going by the studios they've opened in recent years, they're heavily investing in core games, casual affairs and more inclusive experiences and exclusive entertainment content. In other words, they seem to be covering all their bases so I doubt that they'll only be concentrating on gamers when they reveal and then launch Durango. Now, if they combine that with a subscription model from the very start, and it's not hard imagining them going for that, they could quickly amass a large following, creating a huge gap between themselves and their competitors. What was it? "More like Grand Canyon than Silicon Valley"? Sony would find themselves in a really bad situation, playing catch-up again.
But who knows what will happen. Maybe Microsoft opts for a different strategy (although I doubt that), maybe Sony changes their messaging and focus in the following months (also unlikely, but not impossible), and maybe the market decides that it just doesn't care either way. There are still many unknowns, but I do believe that Sony's adherence to the old strategy of "core first, others later" might get them in serious trouble.
I bet you have glass cleaner on your nightstand don't you?
Don't underestimate tablets they are cheap and they do what most people want nowadays.
I have explicitly and repeatedly stated the opposite. Here, I will quote myself:
me said:
me again said:
me a third time said:
That was me repeating this same idea in three separate posts. I'll do it again, in no uncertain terms: Sony has to take a risk, but yes, it doesn't necessarily have to come from the gaming division. I'm not sure how I could have made it much clearer.
College students, almost entirely.
partyphone
Banned
Don't forget that Intel is putting a much higher emphasis on graphics performance these days. The integrated graphics on their current chips actually don't suck. And they're only going to get better. By the time Haswell proliferates everyone will have a decent gaming machine whether they know it or not.
Yes, but what is it that brings casuals on board? It's my contention that word of mouth and social media are some of the most powerful ways to bring the casuals on board. Take a look at what word of mouth and YouTube have done to Minecraft. It may not be the shining example that you're looking for as it has sold less than 10 million copies, but I think it's a great example of a niche game that has sold well beyond its supposed target userbase thanks to social media. I think it's Sony's hope that streaming can help accomplish something similar. Of course, they need the right games to make that work.
This what I am thinking. The crowd that went nuts over the Wii have long since moved on to tablets and phones. These are the devices they like. For a traditional console maker to leave their base and go chasing after this crowd is suicide, in my opinion.
The enthusiast market is not dead. The smart play is to focus on your roots and go full steam ahead, while also trying to attract who you can from that other base with some similar features. This is Sony's strategy and I am glad that they are not forgetting who they are.
They view tablet and phone-like features as a branch on the greater tree of gaming. It should not be vice versa. If some of the other features attract more from the outside, then that is great. We need to pull more people into gaming, not change gaming into a shell of it's former self for quick-buck, watered down, mass market appeal.
AgentChris
Member
They want a nice early install base and true gamers have $$.
partyphone
Banned
You gotta have glasses wipes when you own smartphones and tablets. Finger grease is far worse than semen.
Raven77
Member
Lol, more functionality. Nice.
Except 99% of their "functionality" comes from downloadable apps.
Which a console could implement (and MS likely WILL do this) overnight and blow a crappy tablet like an iPad out of the water on the "functionality" side of things.
Yes I know perfectly I own a 7" tablet.
And? So what?
You can't lay in bed with your console and watch netflix, browse the web and play games for $200 or less.
Boss Man
Member
I think that's right, and honestly I think Sony may be correct. We may just be seeing fatigue. I refuse to believe that anyone is actually "moving" from Halo to Angry Birds. I just don't think that's a thing that happens.
There's money in mobile gaming, but these things are separate. I think analysts may be simplifying what a "game" is. The best approach would be to go after both markets.
I don't think this is impossible, but I'd add that hey need those "casual" games to be front and center showpieces.
Treating the "casual" games as secondary concerns like Eyetoy or Singstar will simply not be sufficient. These types of games will need to be given the AAA treatment a la Wii Fit and Kinect.
In this market, treating casuals as a secondary concern -- as a group that can jump on board if they want to but they aren't the main focus -- won't compete against your iPads and Browser games and other portables which put casuals in the drivers seat and treat them as the stars of the show.
Casual gamers have options now, and you won't win them by default simply because they have nowhere else to go.
Rick Dangerous
Member
There is definitely a huge difference playing on my 42" HDTV and my iPhone.
There is a market of gamers and tech enthousiasts.
The thing is that they could not come since ps3 was terribly flawed and underpowered for what it was trying to acheive.
It's like digital camera. Once they hit a certain level of quality, It went through the roof. Same with tablets.
Same now with consoles.
I remeember the time when games were 25 for my amiga and atari ST. And now I can get a game 10x better for a third of that.
Best time ever to play. I waited so long for this.
Since I played Stuntcar racer.
The thing is the market is maybe not big enough for 2 big players. And I think the 3rd console curse will strike this time MS badly.
Last point : I expect there is no issue providing standard multimedia features with a 8GB machine.
There is a market of gamers and tech enthousiasts.
The thing is that they could not come since ps3 was terribly flawed and underpowered for what it was trying to acheive.
It's like digital camera. Once they hit a certain level of quality, It went through the roof. Same with tablets.
Same now with consoles.
I remeember the time when games were 25 for my amiga and atari ST. And now I can get a game 10x better for a third of that.
Best time ever to play. I waited so long for this.
Since I played Stuntcar racer.
The thing is the market is maybe not big enough for 2 big players. And I think the 3rd console curse will strike this time MS badly.
Last point : I expect there is no issue providing standard multimedia features with a 8GB machine.
Portugeezer
Member
No.
It's usually "true" gamers who go out and buy a system day one, we buy systems when they're more expensive if they have a game we want.
Kind of like how Microsoft was early in this gen, 360 was a really good machine for gamers early in its life.
It's usually "true" gamers who go out and buy a system day one, we buy systems when they're more expensive if they have a game we want.
Kind of like how Microsoft was early in this gen, 360 was a really good machine for gamers early in its life.
In my opinion, the biggest block for casual gamers is the time between when they pick up the controller and when they start having fun. Angry Birds is about 15 seconds; acquiring the game is totally pain-free as well. If they can make the PS3 experience so convenient that people can literally pick up and play the game, they have a winner for casuals. If they have to fiddle with options, settings, menus, loading times and periods in the game that aren't fun, they're out.
One of the big perks of COD is that the game is consistently fun to play. You go into a match, it's immediately fun. Many games aren't like that and simply won't be as popular with the non-hardcore.
One of the big perks of COD is that the game is consistently fun to play. You go into a match, it's immediately fun. Many games aren't like that and simply won't be as popular with the non-hardcore.
My apologies. It was the implication that Sony's perceived misfire put their company at peril that stuck with me, but we're on the same page here.
As I've said, I think Gaikai is that risk, and I think we'll see their TVs and smartphones integrate Gaikai support in some way in addition to the PS4 and Vita. I don't know if it'll be succesful, but it is something that can add a hell of a lot of value across their product line.
Cost accessibility is key.
Picking something up on devices already lying around (PC/phone).
Cheap access to the software itself.
Hence:
Which has probably been as big an investment for Sony so far as PS4. I'm sure once that service is fleshed out it'll get its own conference and maybe then some of these commentators will be more appeased.
I think, in fact, that they have other things on the boil is partially why they're able to focus with PS4 on their traditional market rather than try and make something that's all things to all men.
ii Stryker
Banned
The technological landscape is much different today then it was in 2005-6 using the old conventions to appeal to the core first aren't sustainable. If that were the case then the PS3 would have been the leader last gen..it wasn't
Its imperative they appeal to everyone from the start.
Its imperative they appeal to everyone from the start.
It depends on how expensive it is. If it's gonna be $600, then yeah, they are probably making a mistake and it will sell poorly in the beginning again. However, they could always just sell a lot at the end of the generation when the system is profitable since they will likely have all the multi-platform games, etc. like they did with the PS3.
Basically, if you think they handled the PS3 well, a similar situation could happen here, in my mind.
PS3/360 will probably cannibalize sales early on since there's no backwards compatibility with PS3, though (even if there was, it would happen anyway).
Of course, it could sell more if some of the Durango rumors are true, but I think betting on a lot of 360 gamers to switch is a mistake when half of them are addicted to achievements. If anything, most would just keep their 360s and not get anything else until the Durango had a price drop/non-360 games.
Basically, if you think they handled the PS3 well, a similar situation could happen here, in my mind.
PS3/360 will probably cannibalize sales early on since there's no backwards compatibility with PS3, though (even if there was, it would happen anyway).
Of course, it could sell more if some of the Durango rumors are true, but I think betting on a lot of 360 gamers to switch is a mistake when half of them are addicted to achievements. If anything, most would just keep their 360s and not get anything else until the Durango had a price drop/non-360 games.
To an extent they did but they have not talked much about the casual market. If they address it more at e3 and confirm that the new eye is packed in then I don't see them having a problem. However if they just talk about the casual market and don't show any real games for that market or do not include the eye in all consoles I think they will have an issue.
This may change but the xbox seems like it will be positioned as the console for both camps where it has most of the power of a ps4 for the hardcore but also will pack in Kinect on all consoles for the casual crowd and because its packed in will give developers a good base to make Kinect games (far more than the first Kinect where as much as it sold still was only a fraction of the total install base which meant developers never were going to put resources into their Kinect games). To me any gameplay device sold as an accessory will not get real traction.
I also think another mistake many here make is assuming that the casual and hardcore markets are mutually exclusive. I don't see them that way and there are games of both genres that I like playing. I would love if one box/system could give me everything.
This may change but the xbox seems like it will be positioned as the console for both camps where it has most of the power of a ps4 for the hardcore but also will pack in Kinect on all consoles for the casual crowd and because its packed in will give developers a good base to make Kinect games (far more than the first Kinect where as much as it sold still was only a fraction of the total install base which meant developers never were going to put resources into their Kinect games). To me any gameplay device sold as an accessory will not get real traction.
I also think another mistake many here make is assuming that the casual and hardcore markets are mutually exclusive. I don't see them that way and there are games of both genres that I like playing. I would love if one box/system could give me everything.
Uh, yeah? That's a good thing. They have expandable functionality. App developers can add new functionality to the device day by day.
You are right, people playing Halo now won't throw the game in the trash to switch to Angry Birds or Minecraft.
But, those gamers will grow up. I'm nearing 30 and I buy a lot less games than I did in my teens.
The main question is, will there be a new generation of kids all over consoles? Or are they happy enough playing Minecraft, Angry Birds and LoL for that matter?
When the PS4 launches it will be out of mainstream price point. So it makes a lot more sense to be going for the core in the beginning and then shift focus to services and other types of media later in the life cycle.
I believe Microsoft is going to focus more on services than core games and it will be interesting to see what method works with a > $300 price.
I believe Microsoft is going to focus more on services than core games and it will be interesting to see what method works with a > $300 price.
metalslimer
Member
Yes, I think as a business strategy it is probably a terrible idea as I believe this will be the last console generation as other markets completely erode it. But I'm really happy they are going this route as a gamer. People want to attack analysts for saying that Sony is making a mistake and it reminds me of the people who doubted that there was any erosion of the handheld market. It'll be especially interesting to watch because the PS4 is going to bomb hard in Japan
Agent Ironside
Member
No. It's a good decision imo.
Like other posters of said, it's people like us who are the early adopters, if you don't grab us, then you're off to a bad start. We early adopt consoles because they in theory, are suppose to offer new experiences, with better visuals, etc. Also for the simple fact that it's new tech and it gets us enthusiast excited. Casuals don't give two craps about that.
Like other posters of said, it's people like us who are the early adopters, if you don't grab us, then you're off to a bad start. We early adopt consoles because they in theory, are suppose to offer new experiences, with better visuals, etc. Also for the simple fact that it's new tech and it gets us enthusiast excited. Casuals don't give two craps about that.
Going all in on what is essentially the status quo will be a disaster for Sony. I think they do have plans to be a bit broader in focus, Tretton made some comments about pricing being everywhere from 99 cents to $60, and saying F2P will exist, but the fact that they didn't go into detail or show anything at the conference makes me concerned that they'll treat is as a sideshow, when it really needs to be more of an up front focus.
Sony is doing everything "except" catering to true gamers. True gamers play games because they like to play games. Graphics and specs don't dictate how fun a game is for a true gamer. True games also don't restrict one platform while bashing another because of such attributes.
Third party companies like EA, Activision, and Ubisoft have diversified their portfolios pretty well. They all have hands in social and mobile. I wouldn't worry about them blowing all their load on AAA.
LowEndTorque
Member
The system is adaptable enough that they can tack on must-have casual features if they need to. They are already packing in a camera and the move isn't going anywhere. Hardcore gamers are who you want to target at launch. Targeting casuals makes more sense when the system reaches mass market price.
A huuuge section of the market that most people forget about though, isn't casuals but parents. A large chunk of console sales are based on what parents decide to buy for their 5 year olds. Parents are likely what drove the success of the Wii and kinect. This is a market that Sony needs to cater to better if they want to succeed.
A huuuge section of the market that most people forget about though, isn't casuals but parents. A large chunk of console sales are based on what parents decide to buy for their 5 year olds. Parents are likely what drove the success of the Wii and kinect. This is a market that Sony needs to cater to better if they want to succeed.
No, we are finally reaching the point where the markets are pretty clear. You have the 'core' gamers that buy a console and buy alot of games for it during the lifetime of that console (sony's focus with the ps4), you got the audience that buys maybe a game or two a year for their console, play some games on their smartphones/tablets and maybe play a f2p title on their pc (also targetted by sony if you watched their presentation, will get back to that later). You have the families that buy a console for the family to play some games together, this group is unlikely to invest a whole lot in software unless the purchase of the console triggers one of the younger members of the family to pick it up as a hobby which moves that member to the 'core' gamers.
Now let me explain why that member moves to the core audience. It's very simple, that member causes an increase of purchases of games. For companies a 'core' gamer is nothing more then someone who buys more then 6 games a year, be it that he/she purchases it themselves or gets it from someone else as a gift. There is no defined age on that group nor is there predefined behaviour beyond the amount of software purchased by/for that person. Now Sony's move to target this audience first and foremost is brilliant. The wii came out in 2006 so 7 years later the kids that grew up with a wii at home are ready for the new stuff. Now the second group that buys maybe one or two games a year is also being targetted. How? Simple. The ease of use you can get into your game with the ps4. Why is Call of Duty so popular, why is World of Warcraft the biggest MMO. They allow you to get into the game quickest, have a some fun an be done with it. That's exactly what Sony is targetting to offer with the ps4 even allowing you to start playing the game aa soon as you pressed the download button.
So to conclude, why is it a good move from Sony to target those groups. These are bringing in the most software sales. When Sony launches their Gaikai aervice with the ps4 these groups are most likely going to buy a subscription to the service. I for one think it's a good move since it akes it clear to the consumers what you are offering. Sony is done being the jack of all trades but a master of none. You buy the ps4 because you want to play games.
Now let me explain why that member moves to the core audience. It's very simple, that member causes an increase of purchases of games. For companies a 'core' gamer is nothing more then someone who buys more then 6 games a year, be it that he/she purchases it themselves or gets it from someone else as a gift. There is no defined age on that group nor is there predefined behaviour beyond the amount of software purchased by/for that person. Now Sony's move to target this audience first and foremost is brilliant. The wii came out in 2006 so 7 years later the kids that grew up with a wii at home are ready for the new stuff. Now the second group that buys maybe one or two games a year is also being targetted. How? Simple. The ease of use you can get into your game with the ps4. Why is Call of Duty so popular, why is World of Warcraft the biggest MMO. They allow you to get into the game quickest, have a some fun an be done with it. That's exactly what Sony is targetting to offer with the ps4 even allowing you to start playing the game aa soon as you pressed the download button.
So to conclude, why is it a good move from Sony to target those groups. These are bringing in the most software sales. When Sony launches their Gaikai aervice with the ps4 these groups are most likely going to buy a subscription to the service. I for one think it's a good move since it akes it clear to the consumers what you are offering. Sony is done being the jack of all trades but a master of none. You buy the ps4 because you want to play games.
Boss Man
Member
I see, in that case I'd still put a lot more faith in the traditional market than analysts are but it's not as unaffected as I thought previously.
I actually think the mobile market could be good for the traditional market. It's like a stepping stone that was never there before.
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