ISIS declares creation of new "Islamic Caliphate"
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NYCmetsfan
Banned
Do people forget we were constantly flying over and bombing iraq for most of the 90s?
Tallshortman
Member
What? ISIS in it's current form didn't even exist when the US pulled out of Iraq and the reason they pulled out is because maliki refused to give US troops immunity from iraqi prosecution. Besides, the US is who pushed the sunni Awakening and along with the surge drove al-quaeda of Iraq out.
To be fair, Obama wanted to get the fuck out of there.
He would've found one reason or another to do so.
Tallshortman
Member
He wanted to pull out most of the troops, he would have kept a few thousand there at least for a few more years like with what will happen in Afghanistan. Anyways, ISIS was never the reason for the American pullout, and neither was al-quaeda of Iraq which was almost totally destroyed by the sunni awakening. Obama, like most Americans, just wanted to stop spending billions on American combat patrols and hand over security duty to the Iraqis. The residual force would have been more or less a guarantor of government stability. Maliki clearly didn't want US troop presence there partly because it would give him free reign to alienate/marginalize the sunnis like he ended up doing, though who knows if this would have been prevented even with a US troop presence.
ambientmystic
Member
Those crippling sanctions enacted during that period really helped whittle down the nation to a tiny nub too.
By the time Gulf War 2 began Iraq was but a former shell of it's semi-competant self in the 80s. There was no other outcome for the invasion.
America has never really been tested militarily by a competent nation in recent history. It's easy to shock and pound others into submission when they do not have the means to defend themselves effectively against you.
Sirpopopop
Member
There is no nation out there that can challenge the U.S. militarily.
Occupation is always going to be a hazard, but in terms of an actual fight? The U.S. will win handily.
dripdripsplash
Member
You're right.
I think I had a brainfart when writing that first comment.
Nonetheless it's an interesting development.
dapperbandit
Banned
Yeah I've heard mutterings about Syria and USA cooperating over air strikes.
They should to be honest, they'd be more effective if they pooled their intelligence.
Over the weekend I saw a story in the papers about some politician in the UK arguing that ties should be mended with Assad to help deal with ISIS, the bigger issue affecting the region right now. Enemy of my enemy is my friend stuff.
To me it's like this: working with Assad on any level throws up ethical issues. By helping him defeat ISIS you're more or less guaranteeing that his regime will continue and therefore his detainment and torture of thousands would continue. Western Foreign Policy would also come out with even more egg on its face that they've stooped so low to do it. Russia would have a field day.
But I don't see how it's of benefit to anyone that central power in Syria should collapse. That would be a massive propaganda victory for ISIS that would encourage more volunteers and exacerbate the security problem for western countries. If ISIS were to topple Assad they'd be able to aquire more hard cash and equipment, making them a tougher target. Ancient heritage sites that have so far survived in Syria would be destroyed; kiss Kerak De Chevaliers goodbye. Minorities groups quick to support Assad like Alawites and Christians would get slaughtered. Lastly and most importantly, Syria and the areas of Iraq that ISIS control would be a destabalising black hole for the rest of the region, creating more conflict and messing up international relations even more.
As ugly as the Assad regime is, the alternative is worse.
They should to be honest, they'd be more effective if they pooled their intelligence.
Over the weekend I saw a story in the papers about some politician in the UK arguing that ties should be mended with Assad to help deal with ISIS, the bigger issue affecting the region right now. Enemy of my enemy is my friend stuff.
To me it's like this: working with Assad on any level throws up ethical issues. By helping him defeat ISIS you're more or less guaranteeing that his regime will continue and therefore his detainment and torture of thousands would continue. Western Foreign Policy would also come out with even more egg on its face that they've stooped so low to do it. Russia would have a field day.
But I don't see how it's of benefit to anyone that central power in Syria should collapse. That would be a massive propaganda victory for ISIS that would encourage more volunteers and exacerbate the security problem for western countries. If ISIS were to topple Assad they'd be able to aquire more hard cash and equipment, making them a tougher target. Ancient heritage sites that have so far survived in Syria would be destroyed; kiss Kerak De Chevaliers goodbye. Minorities groups quick to support Assad like Alawites and Christians would get slaughtered. Lastly and most importantly, Syria and the areas of Iraq that ISIS control would be a destabalising black hole for the rest of the region, creating more conflict and messing up international relations even more.
As ugly as the Assad regime is, the alternative is worse.
RustyNails
Member
Some of them are ex-Baathists and former officers from the Republican guard disaffected by Maliki's shit politics. Pretty sure they are promoted to drive tanks and stuff.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Imo, There will be no cooperation, the US will probably strike in Syria but cognizant of the Syrian governments wishes but we are not going to go back on what we said. At best there will be back channel communications
The only kind of recognition we can ever give is Assad stepping down and some kind of reconciliation government
pslayer666
Member
..... and in the meantime the brutal slayings of ISIS keep going.........
.....they brutally killed at least 200 Syrian army prisoners from the airbase they capture after humiliatingly marching them in the desert in their underwear making them scream pro-IS messages and then proceeded to shooting and stabbing them to death.
They also beheaded on a Kurdish fighter prisoner in a new youtube video yesterday, shot in front of Mosul's biggest mosque, in an 'elaborate' production, threatening Kurds to stop working with the American's and fighting them....
I simply cannot comprehend why isn't the West doing something to stop all this..... how can we let atrocities like this keep happening?
:-(
.....they brutally killed at least 200 Syrian army prisoners from the airbase they capture after humiliatingly marching them in the desert in their underwear making them scream pro-IS messages and then proceeded to shooting and stabbing them to death.
They also beheaded on a Kurdish fighter prisoner in a new youtube video yesterday, shot in front of Mosul's biggest mosque, in an 'elaborate' production, threatening Kurds to stop working with the American's and fighting them....
I simply cannot comprehend why isn't the West doing something to stop all this..... how can we let atrocities like this keep happening?
:-(
Kenshin001
Member
..... and in the meantime the brutal slayings of ISIS keep going.........
.....they brutally killed at least 200 Syrian army prisoners from the airbase they capture after humiliatingly marching them in the desert in their underwear making them scream pro-IS messages and then proceeded to shooting and stabbing them to death.
They also beheaded on a Kurdish fighter prisoner in a new youtube video yesterday, shot in front of Mosul's biggest mosque, in an 'elaborate' production, threatening Kurds to stop working with the American's and fighting them....
I simply cannot comprehend why isn't the West doing something to stop all this..... how can we let atrocities like this keep happening?
:-(
Why don't the Arab countries do something? Or the OIC. Turkey has a land force of 300,000, they should step up.
pslayer666
Member
That is a very good question you're asking....
Firstly, some of this Arab countries were funding/helping ISIS in the first place, because they thought they'd help them get rid of Assad... Which was kinda true cause they were, until they went totally beezerk and showed their true colours... Wealthy Qatar-ians and Saudis are known to have given them crazy money so far, but hopefully that has stopped now...
*tin foil hat on*
Also, Turkey's involvement in all this is a bit suspicious imo. Their new 'president', former prime-minister Erdogan is known for his pro-Muslim stance and Turkey has been the gateway for many foreign jihadists in and out of Syria thus far, with no checks being imposed whatsoever.. it wouldn't surprise if me they have some sort of 'deal' going on with them...
*tin foil hat off*
Frankly, as a Cypriot that lives so close to all this, i'm scared shitless tbh
MisterFalcon
Member
Isn't the Turkish army a bit of a mess after its whole leadership got purged by Erdogan ?
I don't get it either since Turkey has been threatened on video as well but I think most of them are hesitant for many reasons. I think they'd partially be afraid of stirring up more problems and going after ISIS in Syria would most likely benefit Assad while putting them at bigger risk of repercussions so they're not going to go at it alone and effective cooperation is hard to come by in the region. I think ISIS in Iraq would most likely be the main focus, especially if the new Iraqi government actually does manage to listen to both Sunni and Shiite leaders which would encourage more cooperation between other nations in the region over a joint enemy.
No one wants to go it alone with no plan since it's a delicate situation but I think they'll finally realize they need to do something or else it's going to spill over.
The Saudis are talking with Israel and even Iran right now about dealing with ISIS so they know it's an issue that needs to be dealt with, but they need to know HOW to deal with it first and others probably won't want to risk it until they're being targeted next. I think it'd be different if this started in a different country.
I was reading an article that talked about more of the above in detail as well in terms of a possible alliance and all that, but a leader needs to emerge and get the ball rolling before it gets even messier.
Basically, they've talked about it but haven't acted on it. Plenty will sit out, but eventually some of them will deal with this but I think the cooperation and leadership is lacking still.
pslayer666
Member
The whole Arab world is under thread by them atm.
They clearly are after Mecca and Medina too, as well as Jerusalem... just not right now... one thing at a time, as they say..... considering how they started, they seem to be right on track right now....
Hopefully they'll all fucking wake up sooner or later and get the ball rolling...
Truth is; most Arab countries a run by people who have for a very long time played both sides - sectarian and secular - in order to get more money.
The United States for too long has backed majority Sunnhi groups; part of that was forced (ie. Iran going mental for a few years/Syria not reforming its weapons programme/Hezbolah) and I suspect a big reason Iraq was on the cards for two decades was it made the most sense from an American pro-democracy view point that 'liberating' them would give them a Shia ally in the region.
Its time however to take an actual strategic stand point (Obama is honestly terrible at this; hes a caretaker when it comes to foreign policy); its clear Assad can protect his position and it is clear Iraq is in trouble and it is clear Iran and Hezbollah are going to be key allies fighting IS.
Shia's are the natural enemy of IS; its in the religion, in the history. Sunni's? Natural sympathisers.
Back Assad (frankly its more humane, the civil war needs to come to an end) with the promise of reconciliation with refugees and some form of UN presense for years to come (Russia should be an ally in this; they were important in the chemical weapons policy (that the Americans themselves should have formed but didn't because their sniffing flowers of democracy = love) but obviously relations with Russia are bad elsewhere). NATO air power takes over against IS in Syria.
The only way to defeat IS is to defeat it in Syria; right now that means an Assad victory.
The United States for too long has backed majority Sunnhi groups; part of that was forced (ie. Iran going mental for a few years/Syria not reforming its weapons programme/Hezbolah) and I suspect a big reason Iraq was on the cards for two decades was it made the most sense from an American pro-democracy view point that 'liberating' them would give them a Shia ally in the region.
Its time however to take an actual strategic stand point (Obama is honestly terrible at this; hes a caretaker when it comes to foreign policy); its clear Assad can protect his position and it is clear Iraq is in trouble and it is clear Iran and Hezbollah are going to be key allies fighting IS.
Shia's are the natural enemy of IS; its in the religion, in the history. Sunni's? Natural sympathisers.
Back Assad (frankly its more humane, the civil war needs to come to an end) with the promise of reconciliation with refugees and some form of UN presense for years to come (Russia should be an ally in this; they were important in the chemical weapons policy (that the Americans themselves should have formed but didn't because their sniffing flowers of democracy = love) but obviously relations with Russia are bad elsewhere). NATO air power takes over against IS in Syria.
The only way to defeat IS is to defeat it in Syria; right now that means an Assad victory.
pslayer666
Member
That's true... the only way to combat ISIS right now is through Syria, which is their stronghold atm....
it's also true that ISIS threat is not only to people of other religions but other Muslims as well, as they have so eloquently shown so far... everyone is an infidel in their eyes and I bet going after Iran is a must for them too. Hopefully they try that sooner rather than later, so that IRAN steps in and fucks them up a bit on that site of the border too....
I think Obama is really reluctant in directly helping Assad, knowing of the atrocities he himself has committed so far (Assad) One alternative is they have is helping with arms and intelligence other militant groups within Syria that are also against ISIS (with the possibility of them of course turning against the U.S. as well after the ISIS thread is dealt with... )...
it's a fucking shit sandwich that nobody wants to eat, but someone should.....
Who Was the American Who Died Fighting for ISIS?
If only the real Douglas MacArthur was around to deal with these clowns...
If only the real Douglas MacArthur was around to deal with these clowns...
In all honesty, forgetting the humanitarian angle, what real incentive does Obama or any Western leader have to help the Arabs defeat ISIS? Too long have we partnered with oppressive, ass backwards regimes who pay lip service to 21st century ideals while behaving like medieval barbarians behind the scenes. ISIS is as much their fault as it is that of Western intervention in the region. I say use the threat that these assholes pose to force some real reform from the Arabian peninsula states and Iran. Stop treating your women like second class citizens, children like cheap labor, and oppressing religious minorities. Until then,
I don't see reform happening now, especially if ISIS were to take control. I believe this ISIS situation is something we want to nip in the bud.
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
As already stated, IS threatens the entire region, so eventually, if they make a big enough push, the Arab countries will have no choice but to do something.
Helping Kurds i'm ok with. Anything further should not even be an option. We have been meddling in Middle East affairs for decades and groups like this have arisen partly because of it.
Helping Kurds i'm ok with. Anything further should not even be an option. We have been meddling in Middle East affairs for decades and groups like this have arisen partly because of it.
speculawyer
Member
America completely dismantling the Iraqi army and building it back up in such a piss poor state is one the major reasons ISIS has managed to grow and rampage across the country for so long.
Miles Quaritch
Member
In all honesty, forgetting the humanitarian angle, what real incentive does Obama or any Western leader have to help the Arabs defeat ISIS? Too long have we partnered with oppressive, ass backwards regimes who pay lip service to 21st century ideals while behaving like medieval barbarians behind the scenes. ISIS is as much their fault as it is that of Western intervention in the region. I say use the threat that these assholes pose to force some real reform from the Arabian peninsula states and Iran. Stop treating your women like second class citizens, children like cheap labor, and oppressing religious minorities. Until then,
Well, doesn't it make sense to take action now when they can be contained and defeated relatively easily or do you think it makes more sense when they have taken over enough land and attracted enough idiots to their cause that defeating them means engaging in a very long and bloody war that could take years?
speculawyer
Member
Can't forget that angle. I was fine with that strategy until the Christians, Yazidis, and Kurds all started getting killed. Can't stand back while genocide happens.
But yeah, Saudi Arabia & Iran should get some skin in the game here. I wish ISIS would attack them instead of defenseless civilians.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Arab Muslims can be slaughtered in the tens of thousands though.
speculawyer
Member
Well, they were not getting slaughtered because they are Muslims. (OK, they were killing Shia.)CHEEZMO;127667848 said:
The Iraqi army was in quite a good state when we left in 2011. 3 years of neglect and defections due to sectarian policy making in Baghdad left it in it's current state. Not our fault.
Hell, on the contrary, let all the extremists from around the world collect into one easily identifiable entity. Maybe they'll actually start wearing uniforms and behaving like a normal army. We're much better at killing those than we are civilian militias and guerrilla armies, which is mostly what ISIS is today.
That stance reminds me of the situation of Hitler Germany leading up to WWII to be honest. By the time the rest of the European countries had "no choice but to do something" it was practically too late. I honestly believe this ISIS crisis (rhyming is fun) needs to be squashed before it gets out of control. I would rather have separate countries squabbling with each other, than a unified nation bent on the complete destruction of their enemies.
The whole reform situation will unfortunately have to be put by the wayside during this time of crisis.
*Just to clarify, this is my opinion based on what I know of the situation.*
Terra Firma
Banned
Are you insane?
Assad's forces have killed around 200,000 people. The ISIS has done nowhere near as much. Backing Assad is completely moronic.
If anything, the FSA is probably the least of evils.
Yeah it's one of the primary reasons to why ISIS has been causing havoc for years now and have managed to reach this level atm. That said I wish US would do as Crisco said, and that hopefully most countries in ME would tell US to promptly fuck off with their agenda and "western" values. Then we can all celebrate that one factor that led to instabiltiy has been removed, like the pest it was in the region.
Shia lifes are cheap as evident from the past decade, and don't even mention the Iraqi Sunnis who ISIS slaughtered simply for participating in the post-invasion govt., or simply for not wanting to form an "alliance" with them. The west reported very little on ISIS, during a time when bombs specifically targeting Shia were almost a daily occurance (now it's much worse). When ISIS invaded Mosul the Shia, Christians and other minorities fled in massive amounts but there was no voice to be heard then; there wasn't a significant media coverage nor a strong international response and support. When Christians were being mistreated, their places of worship defiled, and when villages with Shia muslims were being eridicated and their places of worship were being defiled there wasn't any response. When ISIS tried to approach Baghdad (and still try to do) and Iraq requested US airstrikes no help came. When Amerli and its inhabitants are being threatened with being erased from the map as I'm writing this US is still considering air strikes against them. Meanwhile you had European countries wagging their tails and US dropping bombs on ISIS faster than Obama can jump when ISIS started approaching Erbil.CHEEZMO;127667848 said:
I think we can all say that we're not losing any sleep over US bombs dropped on ISIS but it's not out of any good will, it has all to do with interest in the region. Now considering they did strike against ISIS who threatened Yazidis I wouldn't be surprised to see them do the same for the people in Amerli just to keep a consistent image,.
The sectarian policy in Iraq:
Shia in Iraq are still piss poor and still lack access to basic services.
Shia are still the primary targets of terrorists attacks in the country. They also make up most of the deaths every year.
Basra, which should have been Iraq's economic capital, is still poor.
The oil revenue from Shia regions is spread to each province in the country, including Kurdish regions (and this is while Kurds sell a couple of hundred thousands of barrels of oil illegally without giving anything back. Basically take, don't give back and complain when your funds are frozen)
Maliki brought back (both from his own choice and US pressure) former Baathists to the government.
Maliki attacked Shia militias.
Maliki managed to have political parties with a Shia majority form a stronger connection with mixed political parties and Sunni parties.
Sunnis have been allowed to form political parties and political coalitions, and are freely allowed to participate in every election. This is despite many of their members being people who were a part of the old regime, and if not most of them had firm connections to it.
Speaker of the house must be a Sunni muslim according to the constitution.
Several positions in the council of ministers are occupied by Sunnis.
Investment occurs in Iraq's Sunni regions. There are (or were now that ISIS are there) construction projects going on in order to help develop the city (or fill the pockets of those involved in those contracts, whichever way you want to see it)
I could go on forever. Compared to all other Arab countries in Middle East post-invasion Iraq is the only country, together with Lebanon, that offers such diversity in its politic.
Hopefully the Western media will let some of us know when countries surrounding Lebanon and Iraq allows their minorities to do just 10 % of what those two allow theirs to do. Oh maybe the west could report more about the protests in Bahrain and those that occured in Saudi Arabia....oh wait that doesn't sound very interesting at all. The GCC countries smashed down the protestors like annoying flies but nothing was done about that. No one played the sectarian card then or now, no one brought it up to Arab Sunni countries under US influence.
The sectarian policy in Iraq :lol
The continous statements from political figures in the West, Middle East and people like you who follow the situation saying that Maliki enforced a strict sectarian policy. Statements that aren't worth goat shit much like any other Iraq-related statements coming usually from the same idiots. I thought my "incoherent rambling" couldn't be more clear in that regard in reference to your claim about defections due to a sectarian policy.
I don't need to provide you shit on what my stance on ISIS and human rights are. Piss off with that nonsense.
The Islamic State launched a major offensive on the Syrian city of Kobane late last week. 130,000 Kurds have left the city and fled to Turkey.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29314647
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Eq3ytdOEM3s
This is a situation that could get very ugly.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29314647
Kurdish youth are attempting to enter Syria to help defend the city but are being held back by the Turkish military for some reason. Nonetheless, some have broken through:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Eq3ytdOEM3s
This is a situation that could get very ugly.
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