ISIS declares creation of new "Islamic Caliphate"

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Boss★Moogle;119162318 said:
Except that most muslims in europe don't fill out census forms and such, so any official numbers are heavily flawed.
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You're just kidding right ?

Please tell me he is kidding.

EDIT: What do you think about Anders Breivik ?
 
Amjad said:
EDIT: What do you think about Anders Breivik ?
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That guy is a terrorist and a mass murderer, fuck that guy, don't associate me with the likes of him.

All I want is for people to live in peace with basic human rights respected for both men and women and where people are free to do as they please as long as it doesn't hurt other people or subdue their rights in the process. Radical islam is in opposition of this therefor I oppose radical islam, it's that simple.
 
Oh I wasn't trying to associate you with his actions. I'm thinking more of your opinions on his ideology that Europe is being transformed into a more Islamic entity with the prospect of Muslim citizens having more children than the average and whatnot ?
 
Europe may not become demographically overrun, but there are many failures of integration within Europe regarding the Muslim population.
 
We shouldn't be too impressed with this new caliphate. ISIS controls large parts of two failed states, Iraq and Syria. States whose utter lack of social fiber and national identity meant that they could only be sustained through decades of oppression. Let's see how they fare against a non-failed state - Turkey, Iran, Jordan or Israel. Even Lebanon would be very difficult for them with Hizbullah around.
 
Amjad said:
Oh I wasn't trying to associate you with his actions. I'm thinking more of your opinions on his ideology that Europe is being transformed into a more Islamic entity with the prospect of Muslim citizens having more children than the average and whatnot ?
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I witnessed it first hand in France. My neighborhood was very peaceful when I was a little kid, there were some muslims but they fit in pretty well and everybody got along but by the time I finished high school the neighborhood had become mostly muslim and for some reason they started to become very violent towards non-muslim causing most of us to have to leave the neighborhood.
 
Boss★Moogle;119161340 said:
You sound like the typical person who's lived a privileged and sheltered life and thinks they're the morality police. Should anybody say anything bad about somebody who's not white, they're obviously racist, doesn't matter what atrocities they commit or anything like that; if you're not tolerant of their behavior you're obviously a racist. Sorry but I will never tolerate blatant intolerance and I will always have the courage to speak out against groups that continuously fight to subdue basic human rights. People like you are exactly why Europe will fall.
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I can't even understand how you can't understand a simple thing like future generations of muslims in Europe likely being much more integrated and that, along with (hopefully) less discrimination in the market, giving them better job prospects and stronger networking compared to previous generations. It would allow them to pursue a life that is more career-oriented with a higher living standard thus likely making it hard for them to have many children, let alone being interested in having many of them. The whole idea of you thinking that a curve describing how many children muslims have has converged at some constant value and that will remain unchanged is jokes.

I'm well used to your kind. More than enough of my "friends" that I meet regularly vote for far-right politicla parties that spout the same nonsense as you and those friends have the same mindset as you. If I got a dollar everytime I listened that stuff I'd probably be rich by now. I have a suggestion for you: you continue with your fearmongering, spread it around as much as you like, and meanwhile I'll enjoy my life not having to worry about muslim demons taking over Europe and setting up a muslim demon empire.

The chance of muslims taking over Europe is as likely as you understanding that they won't. I believe in He-Man's existance more than that.

That said this is off topic and I'm not really interested in the topic as I find it boring. Have the last word if you want or create a new thread for it where you can find like-minded people that might be interested in carrying a banner with Breivik's name on together with you.
 
Boss★Moogle;119167349 said:
I witnessed it first hand in France. My neighborhood was very peaceful when I was a little kid, there were some muslims but they fit in pretty well and everybody got along but by the time I finished high school the neighborhood had become mostly muslim and for some reason they started to become very violent towards non-muslim causing most of us to have to leave the neighborhood.
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Oh okay. A very... Interesting perspective.

Could you elaborate, if you may, as what the reasons are, in your opinion, that these Muslims become so violent when outnumbering the native people of a given European country ?
 
Valhelm said:
The problem with bombing indiscriminately is that it's indiscriminate. Innocent people will die. Just being a young man could be enough to warrant a missile fired at you. Massive drone strikes might convince the average person that ISIS has the right idea. As ISIS is essentially promising a stable and unified Sunni paradise, more foreign attacks would destabilize the nation and turn public opinion toward the ISIS.
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It would, unless you are a Shia of course and even then you can't stay too long because they'd feel you are infringing on their sovereignty which the western world and it's allies already did for nearly a decade, second time will be worse. Probably better to stay out of it or keep the involvement minimal if requested (which Maliki did and it was rejected)
 
Cromat said:
We shouldn't be too impressed with this new caliphate. ISIS controls large parts of two failed states, Iraq and Syria. States whose utter lack of social fiber and national identity meant that they could only be sustained through decades of oppression. Let's see how they fare against a non-failed state - Turkey, Iran, Jordan or Israel. Even Lebanon would be very difficult for them with Hizbullah around.
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Seriously. They are merely a pest that people got tired of swatting.

If they actually get some real strength and threaten anyone besides failed states & disliked dictators, they will get hit so hard.
 
Suen said:
I can't even understand how you can't understand a simple thing like future generations of muslims in Europe likely being much more integrated and that, along with (hopefully) less discrimination in the market, giving them better job prospects and stronger networking compared to previous generations. It would allow them to pursue a life that is more career-oriented with a higher living standard thus likely making it hard for them to have many children, let alone being interested in having many of them. The whole idea of you thinking that a curve describing how many children muslims have has converged at some constant value and that will remain unchanged is jokes.

I'm well used to your kind. More than enough of my "friends" that I meet regularly vote for far-right politicla parties that spout the same nonsense as you and those friends have the same mindset as you. If I got a dollar everytime I listened that stuff I'd probably be rich by now. I have a suggestion for you: you continue with your fearmongering, spread it around as much as you like, and meanwhile I'll enjoy my life not having to worry about muslim demons taking over Europe and setting up a muslim demon empire.

The chance of muslims taking over Europe is as likely as you understanding that they won't. I believe in He-Man's existance more than that.

That said this is off topic and I'm not really interested in the topic as I find it boring. Have the last word if you want or create a new thread for it where you can find like-minded people that might be interested in carrying a banner with Breivik's name on together with you.
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In your utopian world that might very well be true and I truly hope that it turns out like that but sadly in the reality I witnessed first hand, the muslim youth has no desire to integrate whatsoever and is turning more and more to radicalism and wants death to non-muslims and sharia law. Maybe in Italy things are not yet at that level but in France they are. There are many muslim neighborhoods in France that are like enclaves where the Police doesn't go and where the only school the children attend is a madrasa. There's no way that kids that grow up like that will embrace western culture and values; they will be taught to despise them. but lets not derail the thread further,; we'll clearly never see eye to eye so lets just agree to hope for the best for everybody.
 
How do the stable muslim nations like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE view ISIS? Do the political and religious leaders support them, condemn them or just say nothing?
 
Boss★Moogle;119170157 said:
In your utopian world that might very well be true and I truly hope that it turns out like that but sadly in the reality I witnessed first hand, the muslim youth has no desire to integrate whatsoever and is turning more and more to radicalism and wants death to non-muslims and sharia law. Maybe in Italy things are not yet at that level but in France they are. There are many muslim neighborhoods in France that are like enclaves where the Police doesn't go and where the only school the children attend is a madrasa. There's no way that kids that grow up like that will embrace western culture and values; they will be taught to despise them. but lets not derail the thread further,; we'll clearly never see eye to eye so lets just agree to hope for the best for everybody.
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After WWII, when the working population in France was largely killed off and the infrastructure needed to be rebuilt, many migrant laborers from Eastern Europe and North Africa came to fill the demand. The problem with integration largely rests on the whole Banlieue structure, in my opinion, insofar as there are divisions that were built to house these migrant populations in a way similar to that of a partial quarantine; linguistically and geographically. Insular communities gestate all sorts of ideas that are not healthy for cross-cultural exchange and France can sometimes throw its Frenchness around -just accept that coming from an American that really likes France- not always welcoming to strangers. Not all the muslim youth in France are radicalized and attending madrasas (remember the head-scarf controversy -is that still going on[?]), they are the outliers used to prop-up the front nationale, in my opinion. There is a cultural division but it does not need to be hostile for any reason other than to distract from another asshole's power-grab.
 
Sylver said:
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Boss★Moogle;119171477 said:
How do the stable muslim nations like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE view ISIS? Do the political and religious leaders support them, condemn them or just say nothing?
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ISIS have been been setting of car bombs, carried out suicide bombings and assasinations in areas with high density of Shia civilians and occasionally Sunnis affiliated with the Iraqi government or suspected of being so. This has been going on for years, you don't even need to dig deep or go years back to see it. Just search through BBC or something for killings in Iraq from the last and this year and read through some of the articles. Check the demographics in the area the attack took place in (mentioned often in the news themselves) and you'll quickly see a very common pattern with regard to areas and victims. Despite the killings that Al Qaida and ISIS kept doing before the current mess the Gulf countries didn't say much. They rarely condemn anyone (nor are they stupid enough to express direct support to any groups). You're more likely to hear some crazy clerics from those countries saying that sect x or sect y are heretics and muslims need to join a jihad against them. Iraq is a Shia majority country and Gulf countries don't like Shia muslims (and historically haven't); this is even more evident in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain where treatment of the Shia minority and majority is about as lovely as Iran's treatment of Sunnis is (and even then I'd bet that Iran treat minorities of recognized religions better but I could be wrong about their Sunni minority) so why would they condemn ISIS less they are knocking at their door?

Instead the Gulf countries tend complain, from time to time, about how Iraq's joke of a shitty government has marginalized Sunnis (but they kept quiet for four decades when Shia and Kurds where more than just marginalized in Iraq). What's funny about this is that Iraq's post-invasion government has been more diverse (with regard to sects/ethnicities) in its very short history than what the govts in the Gulf countries have been in the past century. I'd love to change 'past century' to their entire history but I haven't read their history nor am I interested in reading the history of a lump of desert that didn't become particularly relevant till Islam appeared (and that's in regard to Saudi Arabia only). Not only is the govt. more diverse (and not only does Iraq's constitution require it to be so) but it's also (despite the corruption) democratically elected which you can't say for any Gulf country at all. Oh did I also say they don't have any problems ignoring that some foreign terrorists in Iraq do come from their countries? You'd at least expect them to condemn any killing their citizens do abroad, right? Well apparently not.

Once this situation dies down they'll probably find something related to Israel to complain about as usual while they use Palestinians as an excuse (and we know how nice a Gulf country like Kuwait treated Palestinians in the past), but of course they won't have any problems telling their so called enemy to use their airspace to strike Iran. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the game they are playing. The governments in the gulf countries can fuck off. Bunch of slavery endorsing shitheads.

CHEEZMO™;119171573 said:
Hearing about some Shia in Karbala starting shit. Not sure how legit it is yet.
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Have a few friends working in Baghdad and Kerbala, asked them about this but they haven't heard/seen anything yet. According to them the news coming out there aren't reliable (much like here where one side says they have captured x and another saying they've retaken y without any official confirmation). It's hard to know what's true and not atm. There was massive amount of misinformation spread about the fighter jets bought from Russia in the past two weeks. I guess we'll know sooner or later if locals in Kerbala are on to something.
 
Suen said:
It would, unless you are a Shia of course and even then you can't stay too long because they'd feel you are infringing on their sovereignty which the western world and it's allies already did for nearly a decade, second time will be worse. Probably better to stay out of it or keep the involvement minimal if requested (which Maliki did and it was rejected)
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't less than 5% of Muslims Shia? Is the proportion higher in Iraq, as it is in Iran?
 
shinobi602 said:
The general consensus are they comprise anywhere from 15-20% of Muslims.

Also the majority in Iraq (about 65% or so).
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Yeah basically this. Iran, Iraq, Bahrain and I believe Kuwait (?) are majority Shia. Then you have countries with sizeable Shia population like Lebanon and Yemen but they aren't majority there.
 
Suen said:
Yeah basically this. Iran, Iraq, Bahrain and I believe Kuwait (?) are majority Shia. Then you have countries with sizeable Shia population like Lebanon and Yemen but they aren't majority there.
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I remember reading something about the number of Shia Muslims in Lebanon being higher than estimated, and that they actually hold a smaller amount of power than they should under the sectarian power-sharing thing they have going on and it's part of the reason there hasn't been a census in 80 years as it would upset things. Don't know enough about Lebanon to say whether it's BS or not, though *shrugs*
 
CHEEZMO™;119183312 said:
I remember reading something about the number of Shia Muslims in Lebanon being higher than estimated, and that they actually hold a smaller amount of power than they should under the sectarian power-sharing thing they have going on and it's part of the reason there hasn't been a census in 80 years as it would upset things. Don't know enough about Lebanon to say whether it's BS or not, though *shrugs*
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This is very interesting and sounds crazy. I've never heard about this before but it sounds like something worth checking out. I always thought the power-sharing was, for the most part, equally distributed among Sunnis, Shias and Christians.
 
CHEEZMO™;119183312 said:
I remember reading something about the number of Shia Muslims in Lebanon being higher than estimated, and that they actually hold a smaller amount of power than they should under the sectarian power-sharing thing they have going on and it's part of the reason there hasn't been a census in 80 years as it would upset things. Don't know enough about Lebanon to say whether it's BS or not, though *shrugs*
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Suen said:
This is very interesting and sounds crazy. I've never heard about this before but it sounds like something worth checking out. I always thought the power-sharing was, for the most part, equally distributed among Sunnis, Shias and Christians.
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As a Lebanese-American myself, there's sound analysis in this. The demographics of the country have changed a LOT since independence from France in the 40's. Under the constitution the president is required to be Christian, prime minister a Sunni, and Speaker of the House a Shia, supposedly proportional to the population, but that population has changed. Muslims represent the majority of the country now (population wise) and Shia the majority of Muslims (not the vast majority, but a majority nonetheless).

Power's not divided equally at all.
 
shinobi602 said:
As a Lebanese-American myself, there's sound analysis in this. The demographics of the country have changed a LOT since independence from France in the 40's. Under the constitution the president is required to be Christian, prime minister a Sunni, and Speaker of the House a Shia, supposedly proportional to the population, but that population has changed. Muslims represent the majority of the country now (population wise) and Shia the majority of Muslims (not the vast majority, but a majority nonetheless).

Power's not divided equally at all.
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To be fair Shias have de facto control over the country by virtue of possessing an armed force that is much stronger than the official Lebanese Army and security forces. The constitution is outdated in terms of the demographics but Shias are actually the strongest group.
 
shinobi602 said:
As a Lebanese-American myself, there's sound analysis in this. The demographics of the country have changed a LOT since independence from France in the 40's. Under the constitution the president is required to be Christian, prime minister a Sunni, and Speaker of the House a Shia, supposedly proportional to the population, but that population has changed. Muslims represent the majority of the country now (population wise) and Shia the majority of Muslims (not the vast majority, but a majority nonetheless).

Power's not divided equally at all.
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I remember my modern middle east history class and getting to Lebanon and being facinated by its history. Its like a microcosm of the middle east in one country.
 
Suen said:
Yeah basically this. Iran, Iraq, Bahrain and I believe Kuwait (?) are majority Shia. Then you have countries with sizeable Shia population like Lebanon and Yemen but they aren't majority there.
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Kuwait is about 30-40% Shia.

Suen said:
This is very interesting and sounds crazy. I've never heard about this before but it sounds like something worth checking out. I always thought the power-sharing was, for the most part, equally distributed among Sunnis, Shias and Christians.
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I believe the power is divided as 50% Christian and 50% Muslim (with Sunnis getting slightly more seats than Shias). While it hasn't worked out perfectly, I think it can be a good powersharing model for Iraq, 40% Sunni and 40% Shia (edit: maybe 10% or 20% Christian) with Kurdistan autonomy being guaranteed by the constitution.
 
New article:

Why we stuck with Maliki — and lost Iraq
Money quote:
I was not the only official who made a case against [Maliki]. Even before my return to Baghdad, officials including Deputy U.S. Ambassador Robert Ford, Odierno, British Ambassador Sir John Jenkins and Turkish Ambassador Murat Özçelik each lobbied strenuously against Maliki, locking horns with the White House, U.S. Ambassador Christopher Hill and Maliki’s most ardent supporter, future deputy assistant secretary of state Brett McGurk. Now, with Austin in the Maliki camp as well, we remained at an impasse, principally because the Iraqi leaders were divided, unable to agree on Maliki or, maddeningly, on an alternative.

Our debates mattered little, however, because the most powerful man in Iraq and the Middle East, Gen. Qassim Soleimani, the head of the Quds Force unit of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps, was about to resolve the crisis for us. Within days of Biden’s visit to Baghdad, Soleimani summoned Iraq’s leaders to Tehran. Beholden to him after decades of receiving Iran’s cash and support, the Iraqis recognized that U.S. influence in Iraq was waning as Iranian influence was surging. The Americans will leave you one day, but we will always remain your neighbors, Soleimani said, according to a former Iraqi official briefed on the meeting.

After admonishing the feuding Iraqis to work together, Soleimani dictated the outcome on behalf of Iran’s supreme leader: Maliki would remain premier; Jalal Talabani, a legendary Kurdish guerilla with decades-long ties to Iran, would remain president; and, most important, the American military would be made to leave at the end of 2011. Those Iraqi leaders who cooperated, Soleimani said, would continue to benefit from Iran’s political cover and cash payments, but those who defied the will of the Islamic Republic would suffer the most dire of consequences.
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A Caliph means a successor which is elected and approved by the muslim body

he is a representative and establishing a Caliphate one must follow the strict Islamic military Jurisprudence

Laws that the ISIS is completely rejecting

Terrorism is against this doctrine.... harming civilians, animals and the environment, etc is also against this doctrine


there is a lot more that the ISIS is completely ignoring


Caliphate?! Please, modern day war and people make it impossible and every single extremist group is not even close to being near it in a ethical sense seeing as they are causing multiple atrocities within their wake
 
Amjad said:
Oh I wasn't trying to associate you with his actions. I'm thinking more of your opinions on his ideology that Europe is being transformed into a more Islamic entity with the prospect of Muslim citizens having more children than the average and whatnot ?
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Yes, you were. You were trying to associate his words with Brevik's idealogy, which is now inextricably linked with his actions.
 
CHEEZMO™;119632130 said:
The other day there were reports that al-Baghdadi was visiting Mosul to lead friday prayers and that mobile coverage was cut off for security reasons.

Now a video of it has been released https://ia902506.us.archive.org/1/items/KhotbaJomaa/KhotbaJomaa.mp4



I've seen some people saying it isn't actually the man himself, but to me he does look like an older, more beardy version of one of those old Baghdadi pics.
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Yep it's Al Baghdadi. Those eyes, man.
 
CHEEZMO™;119632130 said:
The other day there were reports that al-Baghdadi was visiting Mosul to lead friday prayers and that mobile coverage was cut off for security reasons.

Now a video of it has been released https://ia902506.us.archive.org/1/items/KhotbaJomaa/KhotbaJomaa.mp4



I've seen some people saying it isn't actually the man himself, but to me he does look like an older, more beardy version of one of those old Baghdadi pics.
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Yeah, he better get his prayers in now. I think there's at least 4 air forces looking to hit him.
 
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