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Judas | Preview Thread

Or people were expecting a proper story and hand crafted levels from the man who did System Shock and.m Bioshock games?

So no, not a shame on folks wanting a proper game with a story and not more of roguelike content.

I don't get the impression that it won't have a strong story. I think it's going to be a bit like Hades meets Bioshock, leaning more towards the Bioshock side of narrative.

Each player's story experiences will differ along the way to the conclusion. All the "procedural" elements are handcrafted and remixed in response to the player's actions. What Levine suggests is that the challenging part they had in development was not just piecing together levels and items, but also narrative elements in response to the player.
 

StueyDuck

Member
it all sounds pretty good to me, i do like me some rogue elements when done properly.

I trust ken levine to do something at least attention grabbing if anything else. Sure it might not be the best thing on earth but right now we need fun and interesting in the industry not the gaming equivalent of oscar bait.
 
Cant wait. I enjoyed all of the Bioshock games and Im very interested to see what the story is like in this game. I have no problem with procedurally generated maps or environments. As long as the game runs fine and its has a similar game loop to old Bioshock games, with immersive sim mechanics added and deep storytelling. They do talk about too much information in that IGN interview though.



On another note, I finally got around to watching "Ghost in The Shell." I dont know why the hell there isnt a game made for that movie, but Cyberpunk 2077 is the closest thing and probably owes the writers and director a fat check.

 
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"Rogue like"

Sylvester Stallone Facepalm GIF


I trust in Ken Levine, but yeah, this hit me like a bucket of cold water

Are you serious? WTF. There goes my interest.
 

John Bilbo

Member
Roguelites are going to become a bigger and bigger genre in AAA. Solves huge problems in that space.
I'm all for it. Hades was a blast even though the Switch version has framedrops in the higher difficulty levels. I guess developing a roguelite requires some unconventional thinking, but Supergiant nailed the design.

I haven't played Returnal yet. Maybe I'll pick it up next month.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
When Burial at Sea episode 2 ended, I thought to myself I'll trust Ken Levine with whatever he does next. It's been so long since then, but I'm still going to.
 

MiguelItUp

Member
I wasn't expecting the whole Roguelite thing whatsoever, but that doesn't put me off. I absolutely loved Bioshock a great deal. So, I hope this lands, and lands well.
 

near

Gold Member
So I watched the entirety of Skill Up's interview with Ken Levine, and I'm not as disappointed or worried about the game being procedurally generated, because it won't at least in terms of how we understand. Levine calls it pseudo procedurally generated, in the sense that the game has a pool of content to draw from that is put together reactively at runtime. It changes and curates content based on a variety of factors like where you are, where you're going, making sure you're not seeing things you've already seen recently to keep the pacing and combat interesting. The game will tune itself if you've been too combat heavy, or if you're playing stealthy a lot the game will pick up on this and get trickier. NPCs will try to swing you in narrative directions based on your decisions and will even try to incentivize you with inventory items that they know you're short on or need. It's an intriguing take on procedural generation.

In regard to the game being roguelite, Levine calls it a Judas simulator, whatever that means. Dying won't just be a shift in gameplay perspective but a narrative one too. It will have a narratively rewarding gameplay loop. They refrained from discussing it because of spoilers, but the Skill Up guys seemed quite wowed by it.

I'm still looking forward to it, just hope Levine isn't lying to me!

So not an immersive sims uh?

Lost almost all the interest i had.
It might actually be the most complicated and interesting immersive sim ever made. Please be excited. :p
 

StereoVsn

Gold Member
I don't get the impression that it won't have a strong story. I think it's going to be a bit like Hades meets Bioshock, leaning more towards the Bioshock side of narrative.

Each player's story experiences will differ along the way to the conclusion. All the "procedural" elements are handcrafted and remixed in response to the player's actions. What Levine suggests is that the challenging part they had in development was not just piecing together levels and items, but also narrative elements in response to the player.
And that’s fine, but not what most people were expecting which was a story based immersive sim/adventure similar to his previous games.

Perhaps it would be good or maybe not but personally it’s a disappointment for me alongside procedural generation. And basically ensures a lot of folks wont get this Day 1.
 
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near

Gold Member
And that’s fine, but not what most people were expecting which was a story based immersive sim/adventure similar to his previous games.

Perhaps it would be good or maybe not but personally it’s a disappointment for me alongside procedural generation. And basically ensures a lot of folks wont get this Day 1.
It is story based, more so than any other Ken Levine game yet. He's previous games were linear narrative experiences, this is a proper choice driven immersive sim that will have a variety of narrative branches. It is also not a procedurally generated game at least the way we understand them.
 

CherryFalls

Banned
New IP = risk
Eh, in name only. It’s obviously a retread of his past work on a smaller scale
11+ year development = risk
How is poor time management telling you how good/interesting/innovative a game will end up being?
AAA roguelite = risk
What exactly is the innovation here?
Narrative legos = risk
lol imagine unironically using a companies marketing lingo.

Do you expect me to go “whoa, that sounds so crazy and risky and cool. It’s like Lego!” then start clapping like a trained monkey?
 
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Camreezie

Member
I dont know why we keep getting developers pushing "everyone has a different experience " in games. I like talking about the same thing to people who played the same game and seeing their thoughts on what went down the same way
 

StereoVsn

Gold Member
Gamers: Why is AAA so risk averse and boring?

Judas exists.

Gamers: No, not like that!
Again, roguelike usually means story and level design are not going to be great.

Hades, which is considered the top of the roguelike genre on the story side still wasn’t nearly as good as some of the best “proper” story based games.
 

StereoVsn

Gold Member
It is story based, more so than any other Ken Levine game yet. He's previous games were linear narrative experiences, this is a proper choice driven immersive sim that will have a variety of narrative branches. It is also not a procedurally generated game at least the way we understand them.
If this is true I am looking forward to seeing more.
 

near

Gold Member
What exactly is the innovation here?
The game will curate narrative and gameplay based on how you're approaching the game. No two playthroughs will be the same, and completely innovates storytelling in games. They've built all these small components and taught the game how to piece it together all the while being reactive to the user. It has a really unique game design and if they pull it off, will be groundbreaking.
 

simpatico

Member
Roguelite with procgen levels. Sounds like Ken wanted to make some artsy cutscenes and outsourced the gameplay for as cheap as he could get it. The best Bioshock game is the one he had no involvement in.
 

amigastar

Member
Cant wait. I enjoyed all of the Bioshock games and Im very interested to see what the story is like in this game. I have no problem with procedurally generated maps or environments. As long as the game runs fine and its has a similar game loop to old Bioshock games, with immersive sim mechanics added and deep storytelling. They do talk about too much information in that IGN interview though.



On another note, I finally got around to watching "Ghost in The Shell." I dont know why the hell there isnt a game made for that movie, but Cyberpunk 2077 is the closest thing and probably owes the writers and director a fat check.


Oh, i remember Ghost in the Shell, it was one of my fav movies in my youth. Extraordinary. Cyberpunk 2077 is the closest thing.
 
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hyperbertha

Member
Eh, in name only. It’s obviously a retread of his past work on a smaller scale

How is poor time management telling you how good/interesting/innovative a game will end up being?

What exactly is the innovation here?

lol imagine unironically using a companies marketing lingo.

Do you expect me to go “whoa, that sounds so crazy and risky and cool. It’s like Lego!” then start clapping like a trained monkey?
You are obviously in denial right now. This game is the riskiest route an aaa could go that's not full fledged Deus ex style immsim.

3 Narrative side characters that adapt to every player action is risky.

Rogue lite gameplay done in a way never done before is risky.
 

hyperbertha

Member
I dont know why we keep getting developers pushing "everyone has a different experience " in games. I like talking about the same thing to people who played the same game and seeing their thoughts on what went down the same way
Nah being able to control outcomes in games is far more immersive than killing the same enemies in the exact same way everytime. Deux ex > uncharted
 

Fbh

Member
The game will curate narrative and gameplay based on how you're approaching the game. No two playthroughs will be the same, and completely innovates storytelling in games. They've built all these small components and taught the game how to piece it together all the while being reactive to the user. It has a really unique game design and if they pull it off, will be groundbreaking.

Does he actually give any concrete examples though?
A lot of it just sounds like vague statements making lofty promises.

The only actual gameplay examples I've heard were in the Geoff video and it sounded pretty vanilla.
It was like "A character will ask you to do a quest for him, but if you accept another one might show up an offer a better gun if you do a quest for them instead"
Or "The character I didn't do a quest for got mad and didn't allow me to enter a healing station"
 

xrnzaaas

Member
Roguelike bits? Yikes. Hopefully that's not goint to be introduced to hide they didn't have the budget to make a game with more unique, hand-crafted content.
 

Eiknarf

Banned
Roguelike bits? Yikes. Hopefully that's not goint to be introduced to hide they didn't have the budget to make a game with more unique, hand-crafted content.
What if Ken L made a Bioshock-like game THIRD-PERSON instead of in FIRST PERSON?
 

near

Gold Member
Does he actually give any concrete examples though?
A lot of it just sounds like vague statements making lofty promises.

The only actual gameplay examples I've heard were in the Geoff video and it sounded pretty vanilla.
It was like "A character will ask you to do a quest for him, but if you accept another one might show up an offer a better gun if you do a quest for them instead"
Or "The character I didn't do a quest for got mad and didn't allow me to enter a healing station"
In the Skill Up one he discusses how the game will fine tune itself to your play-style to counter balance the experience, so if you're playing too stealthy, or if the game has been too combat heavy it will make adjustments. He also mentioned something about levels changing to ensure you're not seeing things you've seen recently to keep the visual pacing going. He mentioned a couple other minor examples. I think it is definitely something that is hard to explain but easier to experience which is why he's probably allowed people to preview the game when it doesn't even have a release window.
 
Knowing Levine this will end up with less than a dozen quest and level variations, a broken Left 4 Dead director and automatically adjusting difficulty like Prey 2006.
 
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MDSLKTR

Member
A game can be both immsim and roguelike. Prey mooncrash is an example. This is not going to be like those simplistic indie rogue likes. It's going to have persistent large levels. The only thing unknown is whether it's immsim
Nobody played Prey Mooncrash itt :(
 
I still don't have a good understanding of what this game actually is. It sounds like Deathloop if Deathloop had more than one solution to the story?

But Bioshock is my go-to favorite game of all time, so I'll definitely be checking this out.
 

Nonehxc

Member
P52cHn1.png


TL;DR via Okami13_ on X/Twitter:
  • "Bioshock in space" from Ken Levine.
  • Non-linear story structure.
  • Main character has memory loss.
  • Three major side characters: Tom (Troy Baker), Hope, Nefertiti.
  • Each of their narratives occur simultaneously.
  • Your decisions with these characters greatly affects the narrative. Every player's experience will be different.
  • Some roguelike elements; Judas can regenerate herself (probably after dying).









Damn, Geoff has been piledriving all that blow into his nose, look at his eye shadows. 🥺
 

SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
I'm just impressed that this game is far enough along dto let journalists play 5 hours. Might be coming sooner than expected.
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
In the Skill Up one he discusses how the game will fine tune itself to your play-style to counter balance the experience, so if you're playing too stealthy, or if the game has been too combat heavy it will make adjustments.

Ooooo, don't love hearing this. Who the **** is Ken Levine telling me I've been playing "too stealthy"?
 
Weird. I've been waiting so long to see what Ken's next game is going to be like...

And now, I think I don't care about it anymore.

Bioshock was a masterwork, but similar to classics like Back to The Future, we don't need anymore.

This pseudo-shock is not it.
 
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