LordOfLore
Banned
The fact Marvel stills pays Claremont to only work for them despite him not getting a book to work on is sad. Let him free and see if he'll capture lightning in a bottle twice.
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Kamala Khan getting doxxed in upcoming issue of Ms. Marvel
- Thread starter LordOfLore
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X-Men '92's ongoing was pretty flawed and boring, but the original mini is the best thing to come out of the X-office in ten years.
Manmademan
Member
Creatively? Eh...that's a tough call. There's been a lot of really good arcs since then.
Commercial success? That peak was under Jim Lee in the 90s, and not by a small margin
To be fair to Claremont, dude's responsible for most of the top ten X-Men stories himself.
Claremont was also a master at setting up future storylines with little drips of information and then 3 years later you'd see it come to a head. Really great stuff.
Is this true??
Is this true??
LordOfLore
Banned
You have a real problem. I going to have to be medicated by the time Marvel Studios releases the first trailer for Captain Marvel.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
His JLA story was terrible. John Byrne drew it too.
10 years is a long ass time dude. Uncanny X-Force alone blows X-men 92 away
LucidMomentum
Member
When Secret Wars went down Carol went to Kamala for help and hope.
The wrong Mrs. Marvel is getting a movie.
Which is fantastic because in a few decades, the same kids reading those books will keep those franchises alive.
I disagree. Kamala is already great, and does not need a movie most likely getting her wrong to feed back into the comics.
Particularly Post-Civil War 2, Carol definitely needs the Iron Man treatment.
Whats the iron man treatment?
Movie incarnation very strongly influencing the character's portrayal across other media in an effort to harness the movie audience enthusiasm back into those.
excelsiorlef
Member
Why do you think the Jim Lee stuff was so hugely commercially successful ... they were coming out of the 80s run which had made the X-Men Marvel's number one brand and going right into the speculator's boom. Also Claremont was there at the start of that too.
Creatively, the Claremont era produced more iconic storylines than any other era period.
Claremont also basically is one of the big reasons we ended up with stuff like Buffy and Angel and what not because he was a huge inspiration for Joss Whedon and in fact Kitty Pryde directly inspired Buffy.
Claremont is honestly probably one comic books most important writers in history.
Influence? they were virtually the same. Tony being a know it all asshole that other people have to clean up after?
Y'all should probably lay off the salt, it's bad for you.
Tony became markedly more obnoxious and RDJ-eque in both mannerism and design.
And not just in the comics, but also in the cartoons and the like. Moreover, his status quo was tweaked to be somewhat closer to the movies.
I will never understand it's somehow necessary that Ms Marvel's popularity has to come at some sort of negative coast towards Captain Marvel.
It's comic-book fans logic - support a character by acting in such a way that's contrary to the characters entire personality.
I kinda assumed that was where this was going after that computer villain revealed he(?) knew her secret identity.
The Civil War II tie-in was shit though. So glad that's over with.
Honestly, I thought it handled that pretty well. GWW didn't really have a choice in the matter with how event comics happen, but that arc had a lot of good parts.
The Civil War II tie-in was shit though. So glad that's over with.
KenzinFive
Member
Yes, but I imagine that the movies made him a likable asshole again. I remember when the first Iron Man movie came out, lots of comic fans absolutely hated Tony Stark for the shit he pulled in Civil War. To me, it felt like the movie reset his character, reminded me people why they liked him in the first place, and gave new fans something to enjoy.
I'll be honest, I wasn't a big Iron Man fan until RDJ's portrayal of him. Before the movie, he was always just a rich smart guy with a cool robot suit and alcoholism. I mean, I don't like how he's now the one with all the quips in post-MCU media (that's Spidey's thing, dammit). But I was more than willing to throw out Civil War Tony for RDJ/MCU Tony.
Hopefully the same thing happens with Carol Danvers. Her run as Captain Marvel is something I've wanted to like, but it just hasn't hit me as hard as I hoped. I vastly prefer Kamala to her, to the point that part of me wants Captain Marvel to do well in theaters just so Kamala can get a spin-off series on Freeform or something.
Duane Cunningham
Member
So Claremont's more recent work, Nightcrawler, was good, but prior to that it was 2010's dismal X-Men Forever?
Well I think this is the solution: Put him on Uncanny X-Men and let him run the mutant show one more time.
Reasoning: maybe it'll be good maybe not, but what do they have to lose? the X-Books suck right now, so even if he crashes and burns, they're no worse off.
Well I think this is the solution: Put him on Uncanny X-Men and let him run the mutant show one more time.
Reasoning: maybe it'll be good maybe not, but what do they have to lose? the X-Books suck right now, so even if he crashes and burns, they're no worse off.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
I honestly think he doesn't want to write UXM anymore. The last two times he was on it were bad experiences for him. He feels like the books have changed too much and there's too much continuity for him to be effective anymore. Nightcrawler was good because he's a relatively isolated character, who just came back from the dead with a relatively clean slate. IIRC, he also got really mad his last Uncanny X-Men run because he wanted to use Kitty Pryde but they wouldn't let him because Joss Whedon was using her. He felt kind of insulted that they wouldn't let him use "his character" because they wanted to appease a celebrity (and I'm pretty sure Joss would have been OK with it if Marvel had actually bothered to ask him).
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
Nah, Claremont's time has passed. His writing never evolved past the 80s.
The last time the X-Men were truly relevant was during Morrison's run. Marvel needs to find a young talent with a ton of potential and a long term vision and let him or her run the show. But that'll probably never happen since Marvel is now Avengers-centric and the X-books will never be able to dictate the direction of the universe ever again.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
The reason for that is because his run was the last major run before House of M. House of M was the worst creative decision Marvel ever made.
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
Pretty much. House of M was the last Marvel event I kind of enjoyed but it destroyed a big chunk of the universe. There have been a few good X books since then but the mutant concept as a whole has become irrelevant. I just wish they would separate the X-Men from the rest of 616 and give them their own universe, they just can't truly coexist with the other heroes.
Byakuya769
Member
Hahaha. Come on. She's a cool comic character not a philosopher or religious figure.
The X-Men movies have demonstrably proven how terrible this is.
Claremont's writing is from a better age where comics were allowed to be fun and adventurous (as opposed to lol random the way they are now). That the industry changed to squeeze a legend like him out is a crime.
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
The industry didn't squeeze him out, his books stopped selling. I have a lot of respect for the man but his output has just been terrible for the past couple of decades and readers have simply lost interest. And this better age you speak of is still in full force if you read the right books.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Do his books actually sell worse in comparison to other x-men books?
Also, the first time they pushed him out was 2 months after he shattered the record for best selling comic of all time, so I'm not seeing a link there.
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
That was 1991.
He had "creative differences" with Marvel but he wasn't pushed out of the industry. He worked for Image, DC and was eventually welcomed back at Marvel.
Every X-book that he has been involved with since then has been critically reviled and / or has sold poorly. Marvel and the rest of the comic industry have no vendetta against him, they have given him plenty of chances. X-Men Forever, the title that was supposed to be a direct follow-up to his classic run was selling around 10.000 copies a month in 2010 and was therefore cancelled:
http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2010/2010-12.html
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
That's an unfair comparison IMO. XMF was a niche title and books like that never sell well. Doing a random check of Claremonts last uncanny run, it looks like it pretty consistently sold in the 80k range and was a top ten book most months. That's certinally respectable for the time and numbers that they would kill to have now (uncanny sells under 40k now!)
Iron Man was at best a B-tier hero until the movies hit.
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
I assume you're referring to that run:
That was back when Uncanny still sold no matter what, even Chuck Austen could have done these numbers. That run was not popular at all at the time with most fans, even though I kind of enjoyed it myself since I'm an Alan Davis mark. Claremont's sensibilities as a writer just do not align with what most readers are looking for today, I think that's pretty clear, or else Marvel and DC (remember his JLA run?) would be all over him.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Yeah but your original argument was that his books don't sell. But from my perspective they don't seem to sell better or worse than the average writer.
I also don't necessarily agree that if he was still good Marvel and DC would be all over him (the fact that marvel pays him NOT to create anything new for their competitors says a lot). Ageism is a big problem in the comic book industry. The extremely talented Jerry Ordway articulated it much better than I can a few years ago. Also check out all of the ridiculously talented comic writers and artists agreeing with him in the comments.
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
That link looks interesting. I can't read it right now since I need to go to sleep because it's 2AM where I live but I'll bump this thread tomorrow to respond.
Pretty sure comics, like sports, are one those things that ignite the same parts of the brain that devout people feel when thinking about God.
That tie in was sadly I hoped a arc of Kamala getting jaded over Carol and putting her in a pedestal that happen overtime, not in just 4 issues.
The Bruno bullshit was bullshit though.
They kinda bucked Tony back with time runs out. He was back to his somehow forgivable dick self in that one
While the term doxxing and the circumstances might become dated, but it's not like identify theft and computers are going away anytime soon - it's not exactly like they're saying her identity was stolen by dabbing. I can't imagine it'll stick though.
I keep up with comics on the side, and I still find it remarkable how much Iron Man, Thor and Captain America matter now, and how it's impossible to explain how B-tier they were to anyone who didn't see it happen in real time.
Hell B-tier is just because they had previous pop-culture impact, for what feels like 15+ years it was the Spider-Man/X-Men related tier at Marvel and everything else below it.
The one/two punch of New Avengers for comic readers and the Iron Man movie for everyone else just changed the game.
People bemoan this diversity push at Marvel and by trying to smash all these pieces into place it can sometimes be a little awkward (Meet Nick Fury's black son named Nick Fury), but for the long-term good of the business I think it's smart as hell.
I believe these new 'legacy' heroes are going to stick in a way that they never did before because most of them are going to show up in the movies at some point. It's not like they're going to do 'The Crossing' when RDJ retires.
And because they aren't 'replacing' the current heroes, the Geoff Johns of tomorrow is less likely to come along to be all 'Fuck off Kyle and Wally' and do to the kids growing up with these heroes what was done to many of us.
I keep up with comics on the side, and I still find it remarkable how much Iron Man, Thor and Captain America matter now, and how it's impossible to explain how B-tier they were to anyone who didn't see it happen in real time.
Hell B-tier is just because they had previous pop-culture impact, for what feels like 15+ years it was the Spider-Man/X-Men related tier at Marvel and everything else below it.
The one/two punch of New Avengers for comic readers and the Iron Man movie for everyone else just changed the game.
People bemoan this diversity push at Marvel and by trying to smash all these pieces into place it can sometimes be a little awkward (Meet Nick Fury's black son named Nick Fury), but for the long-term good of the business I think it's smart as hell.
I believe these new 'legacy' heroes are going to stick in a way that they never did before because most of them are going to show up in the movies at some point. It's not like they're going to do 'The Crossing' when RDJ retires.
And because they aren't 'replacing' the current heroes, the Geoff Johns of tomorrow is less likely to come along to be all 'Fuck off Kyle and Wally' and do to the kids growing up with these heroes what was done to many of us.
You can't really do a Ms. Marvel movie without first establishing Captain Marvel.
They can do a cap marvel movie without Mar vell, so I don't know about that
True, but Ms. Marvel was basically made as being a Captain Marvel fangirl. Kinda hard to get the wheels going for Ms. Marvel without first establishing Carol (the Inhumans show is coming this year, so that's one puzzle piece ready to go).
Double jump Carol and make make Mar be her inspiration instead. That way you can keep the name
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
Bump!
That blog post by Jerry Ordway was a sad but eye-opening read.
But the fact is, Claremont's books do sell a lot worse than the ones written by the current Marvel superstars like Bendis, Aaron and co. It's a cycle and one day Bendis will not be Marvel's go-to writer anymore. It absolutely is ageism but it's dictated by the readership. Does Claremont sell worse than someone like Cullen Bunn? Probably not. But Claremont is a known quantity at this point, there's very little chance that he could ever create another phenomenon so Marvel and DC are prioritizing the younger creators in the hopes that they will blow up like he did in the 70s. And of course, they're also cheaper. It's cruel but there's a logic to it.
My original argument was that the current comic industry is not to blame for Claremont not getting work and I stand by that, it's on the readers. The big two are happy to make exceptions for older creators when there is demand. Frank Miller is a nutjob and his output isn't all that great these days but DC still cuts him a check since his books sell crazy numbers. Even someone like Grant Morrison who started in the 80s and is now 56, still gets high profile work because his superhero books always chart in the top 20.
It is sad to see someone like Ordway lament his lack of work but the editors at Marvel and DC look at their readership and hire creators that they think will deliver on what the readers want. Legends like Ordway, Dixon and Claremont have a very old-school style that just doesn't work today with most readers aside from a few die-hards. That's all there is to it.
I dunno, Bruno had put up with a lot of shit by that point.
The real stupid part was him leaving Michaela without a word.
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