SpartanN92
Banned
We just can't have a simple shoot and loot game can we?
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Killscreen: The Perverse Ideology of The Division (you should read this)
- Thread starter AuthenticM
- Start date
This isn't stopping you.
robertlebrone
Member
Bruh! For real. My goodness. If the reticle turns red I shoot and see what loot drops. I get enough of this in real life.
What happened in The Divison is very similar to a number of historical events, and in absolutely none of them did anything like The Division happened. Either society totally collapses - which would mean no gangs, indeed most people would just die pretty quickly, or society unifies under some kind of leadership. The whole bullshit where you have people looting electronics and stuff? That'd have long-ceased by the time the game is set in. People aren't stupid - they know survival matters more than a free TV or whatever.
DVPredator85
Member
I hadn't looked for any social/political undertones because I'm having too much fun with this game, but this article does point out the often ignored fact that we love to celebrate dystopian societies in video games.
I'm guilty of this, and usually we think it's ok because we're shooting zombies, or some kind of monster, but the "real life" scenario brought by The Division does seem to have a lot of resemblance to events that have happened over the last 15 years.
It really does paint a bleak and non-flattering image of our culture and society if something like this were to happen.
I'm guilty of this, and usually we think it's ok because we're shooting zombies, or some kind of monster, but the "real life" scenario brought by The Division does seem to have a lot of resemblance to events that have happened over the last 15 years.
It really does paint a bleak and non-flattering image of our culture and society if something like this were to happen.
Shake Appeal
Member
Nothing is simple. Everything has meaning. You can try to be attentive to the cultural forces acting upon you and swirling around you, or you can just enjoy things on a surface level without ever reflecting on them. But be aware that the latter is a complicated value system in itself. There is no Archimedean point in culture.
But, you do have that - the cleaners are pretty much your middle-class and business owners, if you listen to their dialogue. You're skewing the game to fit your argument. The only people you can actually kill in the game are engaged in illegal activities. When you face a certain faction, there is plenty of commentary regarding their class and issues if you just listen.
Silver Arrows
Banned
Gotta hate on Ubisoft brah.
This isn't Spec Ops: The Line. I am just here to loot and listen to Wu-Tang while I play.
Sure we can. This could have been but the writers/designers decided otherwise.
I think this is a good statement. Doom doesn't turn you into a murdering pyscho anymore than this game turns you into Glen Beck.
One can still criticise something when it's precisely what you expected. It doesn't make a criticism invalid in any way.
Take whatever you want out of it--but allow people to criticise and analyse as well.
We can't just have a simple literary analysis of the world presented to us through specific pieces of media can we?
This is something that's consistently bothered me about The Division from day 1. I'm relieved to hear that it starts to address the point towards the end--and I genuinely hope that they continue to address it as the game's lifespan continues. It makes a compelling story to construct a power fantasy and dismantle it through the narrative as time goes on. The issue isn't so much in what it portrays, but rather in the way it glorifies what it's portraying.
It's tactless.
This is asinine. Nobody is arguing that it'll change your political ideology. Literary analysis has existed forever, and it's an important way to create context for the society that the literary work was created within. Very few things are going to brainwash you, but the general level of accepting certain things can be used as a starting point for addressing actual systemic problems.
The Jackdog
Member
dude what? could you be more condescending? i wasnt coming at you in anyway. or the article.
your responses have been "lol, no" and that. to one post. thats not how you discuss something with someone thats how you just act like a dick.
I've heard nothing to support the "middle-class business owners" argument re: the Cleaners. Can you give me some quotes? Everything I heard said they were sanitation workers etc.
Also, there's a complete lack of New York's massive upper class in the bad guys. It's set on Manhattan. They should be there.
Because once the developers choose a certain context within which to set the game, they unconsciously set the game within a political framework that can and should be analyzed. It doesn't mean that Massive were pushing a political agenda, it just so happens that the subtext is inherent within the material and it is this subtext that the article is bringing to light.
Fortunately for Massive, I happen to agree with the game's implicit Statist agenda and scoff mightily at the author's plebeian lamentations and hand-wringing!
Palette Swap
Member
what?
AuthenticM, Robert Rath also wrote this which is a nice compliment to the Killscreen article:
http://www.zam.com/article/237/the-division-is-a-terrible-tom-clancy-game
http://www.zam.com/article/237/the-division-is-a-terrible-tom-clancy-game
Red Blaster
Member
which career criminals
You're profoundly missing the point of the article. It's not saying that it will turn people that way, indeed you agree it's not, it's saying it's fucked up. Which it is.
Analysis is for nerds!
captainnapalm
Member
Seems to me you're describing the situation in the game - the process of society unifying under some kind of leadership. It's foolish to think this process would be peaceful and bloodless when society has completely broken down, and that there wouldn't be people looking to take advantage of the situation.
Didn't really think about this until your comment, but we are t-minus two months until someone calls the Division a "terrorism simulator."
ViridianHues
Banned
Makes some valid points. Analysis is good, but painting a game as something malicious just because you don't agree with the implications is far from productive.
Also, woo for my first Neogaf post!
Also, woo for my first Neogaf post!
Yeah I'm interested to know this.
It's actually true that that happened once in the UK, but not in the US.
Similar question re: "losing the election". Only thing that connects to is Trump threatening people will riot if he doesn't get the Repulican nomination.
Brilliant insight, thank you.its a loot and shoot game, its not trying to make a statement, its trying to present a cool idea as a setup to create an interesting environment to....shoot and loot things.
if it was claiming to be a story heavy game or even leaning in that direction i guess this stuff is warranted but as it is i feel like its equivelent to looking for heavy political themes inside 'blues clues'
"Hes blue, like democrats. behold the face of socialism"
its not that the article is wrong, it just feels like if youre looking for heavy political commentary inside this game youd look for it inside the types of happy meal toys mcdonalds gives out too. youre not wrong for doing that and finding some themes....but....why are you doing it in the first place?
On a more intelligent tangent, thanks for the article, OP. Sharing and discussing it with several colleagues now.
AuthenticM
Member
You compared analyzing a video game offering a rich narrative, a believable world and political statements to "analyzing" toys found in happy meals.
There isn't much discussion to have with you.
You're welcome!
Except it is. You just don't agree with it. Don't be obtuse. An analysis doesn't need to be academically sourced or researched outside of the context of the specific piece of media it's referencing. You can look at something and extrapolate how it's making you feel and why and that's still an analysis.
Yeah, and you even have some civilians "looting" places but the difference is... they're not toting a gun around and/or hurting other people like the Rioters do.
I really want people to at least play the game and listen to some of the collectible cellphone recordings, they really depict the world much better than cutscenes and story missions do. It tells us about a lot of the horrible things that each faction does.
John Kowalski
Banned
I knew something was weird when Alex described the game's story as a bunch of anxieties.
Have to wonder if this is some developer's "here's what america looks like to everyone else".
Have to wonder if this is some developer's "here's what america looks like to everyone else".
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
It's a well written article, that's for sure. Shockingly enough you can like this article and still enjoy playing the Division. It's not mutually exclusive.
They're not taking advantage in real-seeming ways, though - it's just cheap stereotypes and bonkers ones (rioters = cheap and racist, cleaners = bonkers and classist). Also, everyone would be trying to get out, not to eff around stealing TVs or setting fire to shit.
But that's it - there are examples of caring and empathy. So why not also show this in addition to the dog-eat-dog stuff?
Yup
Which career criminals?
Well, don't come with the condenscending tone, then.
So a fantasy scenario where pre-emptive strikes become routine and justified is stupid and trying? You don't think that in itself has a certain message (intentional or not) built in?
Guys. You realize the game doesn't have to set out to make any sort of political statement or grand message - and yet, that doesn't absolve it from criticism or put it above discussion.
I think its interesting to dive into.
Feel like the answer to this question will make me sick.
I think its interesting to dive into.
Feel like the answer to this question will make me sick.
Pot-kettle-black. You don't get to sneer down your nose at the article then complain about people sneering at you.
Disheveled_Zen
Member
There's some heavy over simplification going on in the article. The looters may be called that in game but
*story spoilers*
*story spoilers*
They enemies labeled as looters arent just random people trying to survive. They have a hierarchy with leaders who dish out orders for the underlings to go out and kill, steal, rape, take what and who they want, kill JTF members and so on. If they want to stay a part of the faction, they have to hit a certain quota of shit they bring back.
The game actually has quite a few NPC's who are breaking into cars, going through apartments and trash, loot dead body for supplies, etc with whom you never get to kill or even interfere with. In fact you often get to hand them things like water and canned food and let them be on their way.
Also like others have mentioned, there are quite a few dialogues through the game about how flawed The Division is at its core, and in the end it's not even you that saves the day, you just help a doctor who is that actual one that makes the vaccine.
The game actually has quite a few NPC's who are breaking into cars, going through apartments and trash, loot dead body for supplies, etc with whom you never get to kill or even interfere with. In fact you often get to hand them things like water and canned food and let them be on their way.
Also like others have mentioned, there are quite a few dialogues through the game about how flawed The Division is at its core, and in the end it's not even you that saves the day, you just help a doctor who is that actual one that makes the vaccine.
Do you have a link to this? I'd love to read the interview.
Sanitation workers ARE middle class. Five years on the job in NYC and you're making 80k. The leader or one of the main guys owns a construction company. Their rationale for burning everything is to protect their homes and way of life - it's a middle-class argument. They're kind of the analogue to militias in the US.
Regarding the elites, when you do side missions and find echoes, look at the individual people - when you find an upper class individual, it usually says they were evacuated. The power of money. There is one missing persons mission that drives that point home.
The Jackdog
Member
i think youre missing my point. but no one seems open to actually talking about it rather than just sarcastic drive by comments.
im not saying the article is in ANY WAY wrong. im saying i think its trying too hard.
im asking, is the division the type of game that should be analyzed this way? is its story trying to say anything at all? what are the themes at play here? what kind of points is it trying to make? what ARE the writers going for? or, is the division saying something by not saying anything at all?
like im not looking for the deep themes concerning a chicken crossing the road in crossy road. but thats a game played by millions of people too. thats what i mean by the happy meal comment. so does just "X number of eyes on this" lend itself to needing to be analyzed in this way? i wasnt trying to belittle the article or the points its making, im saying doesnt the game and its story have to try to say something in order for what its saying to be criticized this way? from what ive played of the game, the story is paper thin and isnt really making any profound arguments at all
And even more shockingly, you can agree with the article pointing out the negative aspects of the game's unconscious political subtext, agree with the premise of The Division's unconscious political subtext because you don't believe that they are in fact negative, and think that The Division itself is a terribly boring game.
My dude, you literally came swingin' into the thread mocking people who found something to think about in the piece. You have no room to talk about condescension.
I agree with Alex Navarro when he said the world is built on a bunch of anxieties. Every NPC in the game (that I've run into so far) and the PC itself, are a form of anxiety around very specific tropes and stereotypes. It's a little surreal.
That was you first, so I suggest you take a long look in the mirror.
You are aware that your first post is still visible, yes?
I don't normally buy anything Tom Clancy (Not since the original Splinter Cells), but I got this to play with a friend...
... and THIS is suppose to feel good? The enemies scream at each other like they're normal everyday people the ENTIRE TIME (y'know, punctuated by extra bits of useless profanity), and yet, you can't even show variety in how you bring them down. The way they freak out over things like my "Robot" portable auto-gun is especially telling.
If they're as desperate as they sound, why can't I stop them with an overt show of force? Why can't I at least sneak up, kill their leader, and cause the unfortunate followers to stand down? Of sound them enough as to where they stop resisting?
Past the fact that everyone is generic wintery human person #572 in build, they offer no variance in personality. Everyone's a bit desperate, and everyone attacks first, and ask questions later. a red recticle is the only thing that seperates the targets and the needy.
They could at LEAST paint everyone as monochromatically evil as the enemies in something like "Fist of the North Star." They go out of the way to make even the regular villans seem like absolute bastards. By the time violent death meets the characters, you feel like they absolutely deserve it.
But in Division last night, I ran into a black woman speaking with a fairly original-for-games accent, and even though she was shooting at me... I didn't want to kill her, as she was one of the most unique sounding people I'd run into.
It's just an annoying thing that I'd expect such a massively successful game to show more variety in. I can't really enjoy my kills or victories when I feel like I'm just bullying desperate survivors.
... and THIS is suppose to feel good? The enemies scream at each other like they're normal everyday people the ENTIRE TIME (y'know, punctuated by extra bits of useless profanity), and yet, you can't even show variety in how you bring them down. The way they freak out over things like my "Robot" portable auto-gun is especially telling.
If they're as desperate as they sound, why can't I stop them with an overt show of force? Why can't I at least sneak up, kill their leader, and cause the unfortunate followers to stand down? Of sound them enough as to where they stop resisting?
Past the fact that everyone is generic wintery human person #572 in build, they offer no variance in personality. Everyone's a bit desperate, and everyone attacks first, and ask questions later. a red recticle is the only thing that seperates the targets and the needy.
They could at LEAST paint everyone as monochromatically evil as the enemies in something like "Fist of the North Star." They go out of the way to make even the regular villans seem like absolute bastards. By the time violent death meets the characters, you feel like they absolutely deserve it.
But in Division last night, I ran into a black woman speaking with a fairly original-for-games accent, and even though she was shooting at me... I didn't want to kill her, as she was one of the most unique sounding people I'd run into.
It's just an annoying thing that I'd expect such a massively successful game to show more variety in. I can't really enjoy my kills or victories when I feel like I'm just bullying desperate survivors.
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