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[Nafai1123]

This is so stupid and a complete waste of taxpayer money.

 

[Dick Justice]

Good. False advertising deserves to be stamped out. And the people here who are actually defending Sony?

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Which GAFfer was this?

 

[Principate]

The frame outputted is 1920 pixels wide and 1080 pixels tall.

The game doesn't have a full 1080p native resolution for multiplayer. It uses some form of pixel interpolation so the actual pixel density is way less than 1920x1080.

It's actually quite ingenious but it's no dirt off of my back if they lose since it'll mean companies will be far less eager to bait and switch about their product,

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Try moving.

Come on man. Seriously. So I take it you didn't play games before this gen started?

 

[AuRoN89]

LOL, the game IS native 1080p, in story mode

The multi it's still techincally 1080p, but only half of screen is filled with real pixel.. but it's still 1080.

 

[StoopKid]

This is so stupid and a complete waste of taxpayer money.

.

 

[Hexa]

Here's the back of the box


blog post
http://www.killzone.com/en_US/blog/news/2013-11-04_new-hq-footage.html

With the definition of native as not upscaled which is how it is often used, then that is absolutely correct.

 

[gcubed]

The game doesn't have a full 1080p native resolution for multiplayer. It uses some form of pixel interpolation so the actual pixel density is way less than 1920x1080p.

It's actually quite ingenious but it's no dirt off of my back if they lose since it'll mean companies will be far less eager to bait and switch about their product,

when the frame outputs, it outputs 1920x1080. Some of those pixels were from a previous frame, but they don't disappear.

 

[Matush]

So should we all sue Ubisoft for thier promises and marketing of Watch_Dogs and AC Unity now or what? This is stupid.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

It's native 1080p for single player. Multiplayer uses a different rendering technique for 1080p which uses current and previous frame to make up a 1080p image (similar to interlacing, but done vertically)



Thanks.

Then they should probably be held to account for that. If for no other reason than to serve as an example and get some meaningful accountability from these companies.

 

[TyrantII]

Doesn't the engine upscale the final, pretty high res image to 1080p? And haven't games done that the ENTIRE LAST GENERATION? This just seems like the dumbest fucking useless lawsuit.

Nothing is upscaled. Some of the pixies are calculated through a temporal algorithm to find a best value instead of directly rendered. More in line with how AA works than anything.

At worst its just a different rendering solution that isn't as precise as a more traditional method.

 

[vesvci]

Good. False advertising deserves to be stamped out. And the people here who are actually defending Sony?

It's not about defending, it's about priorities. Was the game 720p and advertised as 1080p? The difference was minimal. This is a waste of resources and time.

Curious...what's your take on Halo:MCC? ACU? Should they be in court as well?

 

[Principate]

So should we all sue Ubisoft for thier promises and marketing of Watch_Dogs and AC Unity now or what? This is stupid.

Yes we should. Why is that a bad thing?

Do you like being taken advantage of and lied to? False advertising is serious.

I'm not not saying they should lose but it's no heinous act if they do, as it may lead to a positive change in this industry as publishers push more to blatant lying to consumers in order to get pre-orders.

 

[belvedere]

I thought some of the self-inflicted pain/injury lawsuits were fucking ridiculous, but this takes the cake. I mean I guess this is more about consumer misinformation than any actual perceptible impact on the consumer, but holy hell man.

 

[MJLord]

The game doesn't have a full 1080p native resolution for multiplayer. It uses some form of pixel interpolation so the actual pixel density is way less than 1920x1080p.

It's actually quite ingenious but it's no dirt off of my back if they lose since it'll mean companies will be far less eager to bait and switch about their product,

I agree I think it's pretty ingenious.

There is no bait and switch here though. The image you get is 1080p. Complaining that internally some of the pixels were generated using an approximation technique is like complaining about which AA method they use or what PP effects they add.

If you don't like the overall IQ of the end frame then that's on you to decide but you can't sue them for being misleading when they just aren't.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

Then they should probably be held to account for that. If for no other reason than to serve as an example and get some meaningful accountability from these companies.

they don't have the explain the technical details of their game, seeing as how most people won't understand it anyways.

 

[SaucyJack]

Having read the court paper I find it odd that Xbox is mentioned so often in construing a case about playstation game. It comes across a bit fanboyish.

 

[Dick Justice]

It's not about defending, it's about priorities. Was the game 720p and advertised as 1080p? The difference was minimal. This is a waste of resources and time.

Curious...what's your take on Halo:MCC? ACU? Should they be in court as well?

Doesn't matter if you think it's a waste of time, or if the difference is minimal. They advertised full 1080P for multiplayer, that isn't the case.

And I'm not particularly aware of the problems with these other games, as I haven't played them. If you're trying to insinuate that I have some kind of fanboy agenda, try harder.

 

[krizzx]

Ruling: http://www.courthousenews.com/2014/12/16/sony MTD ruling.pdf (PDF)

via http://gamepolitics.com/2014/12/17/...-lawsuit-can-proceed-judge-rules#.VJH1qMYdLfY

Good job. Hold them accountable for making false claims to sale products. If you are going to boast about how much your product can do, it should live up to the claim.

they don't have the explain the technical details of their game, seeing as how most people won't understand it anyways.

This law suit shows that may not be the case.

 

[Live Free or Die]

So stupid.

 

[DoT2]

Lawsuits for everything!

 

[mrklaw]

"The defence calls Mr Aaron Greenberg"

 

[DUFFMCWALIN]

Fiat justitia ruat caelum.

Googling this led me down a Wiki hole and I ended up reading about James Edwin Horton and how he uttered that phrase at the end of a trail. Thanks for the history lesson Nueuro.

 

[Korten]

Doesn't matter if you think it's a waste of time, or if the difference is minimal. They advertised full 1080P for multiplayer, that isn't the case.

And I'm not particularly aware of the problems with these other games, as I haven't played them. If you're trying to insinuate that I have some kind of fanboy agenda, try harder.

http://www.killzone.com/en_GB/blog/news/2014-03-06_regarding-killzone-shadow-fall-and-1080p.html

But it is the case, the game DOES output full 1080p for multiplayer.

 

[Cornbread78]

Good. False advertising deserves to be stamped out. And the people here who are actually defending Sony?

Umm, it is 1080p..

 

[migh_and_highty]

Wait how can a guy sue for more than the price of the game?!
Surely he can't sue for that much

 

[SRTtoZ]

Not defending the lawsuit but something was definitely wrong with the MP resolution because I felt like I couldn't see SHIT in the distance. I knew it was 1080p but it still felt blurry for some reason.

 

[gatti-man]

Good. False advertising deserves to be stamped out. And the people here who are actually defending Sony?

Did you play the game? I played it from start to finish on an 80" 4k display and never felt lied to or upset about the resolution.

 

[dark10x]

Makes sense that you can't falsely advertise something. Seems pretty clear-cut.

They did not. Even if upscaled from 480p, the system outputs at 1080p. That alone is enough. They said it outputs 1080p and they're right.

Heck, the mp does produce a full 1080p image. It simply gets there using a roundabout method.

 

[krizzx]

Good. False advertising deserves to be stamped out. And the people here who are actually defending Sony?

I am with you 100%. Just like when Nintendo got in trouble for advertising off-tv without saying that it wasn't supported every game, which was not intenionally deceptive, if use something to get a sell that turns out to not be present, the one who gave the false claim should be held accoutable.

I still say Sony should have payed out their rear for removing Other OS from teh PS3. I was one of the people who used that as a decided factor to get the system.

 

[alr1ght]

Having read the court paper I find it odd that Xbox is mentioned so often in construing a case about playstation game. It comes across a bit fanboyish.

https://www.facebook.com/Sir.Douglas.Ladore/likes

Would lol if that's actually him.

 

[tuna_love]

Did you play the game? I played it from start to finish on an 80" 4k display and never felt lied to or upset about the resolution.

How do you finish multiplayer?

 

[hodgy100]

The frame outputted is 1920 pixels wide and 1080 pixels tall.

Don't be ridiculous. The complaint is that the game doesn't render at full 1920x1080p, which in it's multiplayer mode it doesn't, it is actually rendering at 960x1080 and making up the difference from data extrapolated from the previous two frames. So in esscence, its a really fucking clever upscaling algorithm that fooled many people into thinking it was still rendering at 1080p. while the use of an upscaling algorithm like this is ingenious as it is very clever. The advertising around the game was still misleading as it advertised the game as running at 1080p, which it does not in multiplayer. This lawsuit is good for transparency between developers and gamers.

 

[Principate]

They did not. Even if ups sled from 480p, the system outputs at 1080p. That alone is enough.

Isn't the whole argument this.

"If native means that every part of the pipeline is 1080p, then this technique is not native. Id. (emphases added)." (from the ruling).

And the fact Guerilla Games called the resolution of the multiplayer native 1080p.

 

[jblank83]

I'm honestly stunned the judge said ok.

Truth in advertising has been a thing for a long time.

 

[gatti-man]

I am with you 100%. Just like when Nintendo got in trouble for advertising off-tv without saying that it wasn't supported every game, which was not intenionally deceptive, if use something to get a sell that turns out to not be present, the one who gave the false claim should be held accoutable.

I still say Sony should have payed out their rear for removing Other OS from teh PS3. I was one of the people who used that as a decided factor to get the system.

It wasn't false advertising. It outputs 1080p that's correct. Show me where they touted multiplayer RENDERS at FULL 1080p. Multiplayer output is full 1080p.

 

[mrklaw]

To most gamers, that makes sense and probably wouldn't call that false advertising. The question is going to be, can the defense explain this in a way that makes sense to a jury that's probably not going to be made up by a bunch of well informed gamers.

Perhaps they could cite how almost no games use native 1080p throughout their pipeline. Most use lower resolutions for shadows and other effects, which are then composited into a 1080p buffer?

All that Killzone is doing, is using previous frame data to assist in the creation of a new frame. A completely new set of 1080p pixels are drawn, it is only the amount of computational effort that varies per pixel. As it does for every game ever. Who is to say how much effort per pixel is enough?

 

[dark10x]

Isn't the whole argument this.

"If native means that every part
of the pipeline is 1080p, then this technique is not native.” Id. (emphases added)." (from the ruling).

And the fact Guerilla Games called the resolution of the multiplayer native 1080p.

I'd argue it is, to be honest. They'll achieving it in a unique fashion but it still is.

 

[Caayn]

The frame outputted is 1920 pixels wide and 1080 pixels tall.

It wasn't false advertising. It outputs 1080p that's correct. Show me where they touted multiplayer RENDERS at FULL 1080p. Multiplayer output is full 1080p.

 

[Archaix]

The thread title is misleading; the suit isn't proceeding anywhere, it's stuck at the starting line.

Judge Chen accepted Sony's argument that the suit failed to adequately plead a case for negligent misrepresentation, but refrained from dismissing the claim outright because any time a motion to dismiss is filed, all facts are construed in the light most favorable to the plaintiff. The judge essentially thinks there might be a claim and told the plaintiff to give it another shot, which is not an unusual or uncommon thing for a judge to do.

The parties are still stuck on square 1 and it's the plaintiff's burden to get the suit going by making a better argument and presenting a valid claim upon which relief can be granted.

Thread title should read, "Judge tepidly refuses to dismiss Killzone: SF lawsuit."

That's only in regards to one claim.

The complaint pleads seven causes of action, including three alleged statutory violations: (1) the California Legal Remedies Act; (2) the California Unfair Competition Law; and (3) the California False Advertising Law. Id. at ¶¶ 65-103. Ladore’s remaining claims allege the following common law violations: (4) breach of express warranties; (5) fraud in the inducement; (6) negligent misrepresentation; and (7) unjust enrichment

Specifically (6) appears to require some sort of noneconomic loss for a claim to be valid. The other requests to dismiss were rejected outright, only the negligent misrepresentation claim needs to be fixed in order for it to be allowed in the suit.

 

[MJLord]

Don't be ridiculous. The complaint is that the game doesn't render at full 1920x1080p, which in it's multiplayer mode it doesn't, it is actually rendering at 960x1080 and making up the difference from data extrapolated from the previous two frames. So in esscence, its a really fucking clever upscaling algorithm that fooled many people into thinking it was still rendering at 1080p. while the use of an upscaling algorithm like this is ingenious as it is very clever. The advertising around the game was still misleading as it advertised the game as running at 1080p, which it does not in multiplayer. This lawsuit is good for transparency between developers and gamers.

I'll quote what I said later in the thread since you picked an earlier response.

I agree I think it's pretty ingenious.

There is no bait and switch here though. The image you get is 1080p. Complaining that internally some of the pixels were generated using an approximation technique is like complaining about which AA method they use or what PP effects they add.

If you don't like the overall IQ of the end frame then that's on you to decide but you can't sue them for being misleading when they just aren't.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words but I still can't work out what you're getting at.

 

[gatti-man]

Yes I realize it's a technicality but it is also a true statement.

 

[TheDarkTriforce]

This is good for gamers in my opinion! I hope this prevent false promises from developers to gamers even if there are small and don't look like they are worth to be noted. If someone promises a 1080p game and it's not then every gamer should have the right to complain about it in my opinion and even the right to claim your right in front of a judge.

 

[KMS]

Doesn't matter if you think it's a waste of time, or if the difference is minimal. They advertised full 1080P for multiplayer, that isn't the case.

And I'm not particularly aware of the problems with these other games, as I haven't played them. If you're trying to insinuate that I have some kind of fanboy agenda, try harder.

They really muddied the waters with their rendering technique. It does render a full 1080p image but 960 horizontal lines are filled in using past frames and temporal tracking of what past pixels will move into those 960 columns. So they render a full 1920x1080 image but only 960x1080 are rendered traditionally. Standing still there is pretty much no difference but the faster the motion the greater the artifacts creating blurriness. If they could tweak it to be better at predicting to limits the side effects almost unnoticeable would be a really great way to improve performance while delivering 1080p quality. Especially on the Xbox with the limit of esram and less rops.

 

[mrklaw]

Don't be ridiculous. The complaint is that the game doesn't render at full 1920x1080p, which in it's multiplayer mode it doesn't, it is actually rendering at 960x1080 and making up the difference from data extrapolated from the previous two frames. So in esscence, its a really fucking clever upscaling algorithm that fooled many people into thinking it was still rendering at 1080p. while the use of an upscaling algorithm like this is ingenious as it is very clever. The advertising around the game was still misleading as it advertised the game as running at 1080p, which it does not in multiplayer. This lawsuit is good for transparency between developers and gamers.

An upscaling algorithm would take the current frame and scale it up. Interpolating purely based on pixel colour data. As soon as you start taking previous frame data including velocity and depth etc and calculating new pixel values across the entire screen, IMO that clearly steps over into native 1080p.

And this mainly manifests in motion, a lot of which will be masked by the limited motion resolution of standard LCD TVs

 

[vesvci]

Doesn't matter if you think it's a waste of time, or if the difference is minimal. They advertised full 1080P for multiplayer, that isn't the case.

And I'm not particularly aware of the problems with these other games, as I haven't played them. If you're trying to insinuate that I have some kind of fanboy agenda, try harder.

You're not aware of the ACU or Halo:MCC problems?

Also, I'm not insinuating anything (funny that you think I am though). I wanted to understand your perspective a bit better. I think may already do though.

 

[Teletraan1]

Sony should just settle by giving away free years of PSN+ to the people and then turn around and give Shadow Fall as the free game that month just to rub it in.

 

[Icyflamez96]

I'm a bit fed up with this kind of false advertisement myself. Curious to see where this goes.

 

[NBtoaster]

Isn't the whole argument this.

"If native means that every part of the pipeline is 1080p, then this technique is not native. Id. (emphases added)." (from the ruling).

And the fact Guerilla Games called the resolution of the multiplayer native 1080p.

You could probably count the number of games that have every part of the pipeline at 1080p on one hand this gen.