Can Crusher
Banned
You gotta have no life to a)decide to do this, b)to support this.
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'Killzone: Shadow Fall' Class Action Lawsuit Can Proceed, Judge Rules
- Thread starter chadskin
- Start date
NullPointer
Member
Everybody in this class action should be entitled to a crisp one-hundred-dollar bill ...
... in exchange for two old fifties.
... in exchange for two old fifties.
So do you consider BF4 on consoles to be 1080p because the game is rendered at 1600x900 then upscaled to 1920x1080?
Post of the day. That is, if you mean literally and not the game.
Then why is it so blurry? It looks like it's running FXAAx16. Native 1080p doesn't look anything like Killzone's mp.
I bet is says 1080p on the box.
FF Seraphim
Member
Sony should just stop all games from selling within California, close down the servers and whatnot. Would be hilarious.
Kssio_Aug
Member
I understand that wasnt a big thing; and I understand also that maybe its too much to actually use the court for such a thing. BUT, lets not protect false advertising here. They (Sony/Guerrilla) knew what they were doing.
I'd say 343 deserves even more if we really are not playing in dedicated servers.
This false advertising shit has to stop. It doesnt matter if you, as a consumer, could barely notice it.
I'd say 343 deserves even more if we really are not playing in dedicated servers.
This false advertising shit has to stop. It doesnt matter if you, as a consumer, could barely notice it.
That's not how I'm reading the explanation. Bathe game starts with a 960x1080p base and then builds - using said clever technique - a full 1920x1080p image and renders that for output.
If the game rendered at 960x1080p that would be output then upscaled but that's not what's happening here.
Bottom line this cuts right into what is a native image and what is acceptable tendering techniques? Most games for example use clever tricks with shadows and other elements: should the developers be sued for those?
The general usage of "native" means a final output of 1920x1080p with no scaling and technically that's what seems to be going on here.
TBH the plaintiff is obviously a lying ambulance chaser which doesn't help, and given the state of releases like Unity, Skyrimnon PS3 and the deplorable frame rate of many titles I feel this case is missing the big issues around quality and fair advertising and focusing on the most marginal case possible.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Then companies shouldn't false advertise if that's your insinuation.
Honestly can't believe people are so okay with blatant false advertising. Ignoring the murky example of this game. There's a shocking amount of people that are totally okay with companies lying in order to get your money.
There's a reason why there's laws against this. The next time you complain about unfinished games or games that were blatantly different to what was advertised don't even bother complaining, because your implicitly saying it's okay for companies to do this if you think there's nothing wrong with false advertising.
it renders half the pixels one way and it renders the other half another way. i would in no way classify this method as upscaling...as nothing is scaled.
SmoothRunningGun
Member
Yes. Businesses misleading consumers always do.
Dick Justice
Banned
Sure, why not.
I'm aware that they have problems, but I haven't kept up to date on the specifics or whether or not they've been falsely advertised.
And I can see your perspective. I've seen it a bunch of times, someone brings up an issue about an exclusive PS/Xbox game, another person comes along and irrelevantly brings up other games that aren't exclusive to PS/Xbox to suggest that they're just complaining about that game because they're a fanboy for the other platform. Whatever, I've said my piece so I'm out.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Thought the Sony Pictures case is devolving is something more worrisome than console war stuff.
Jacksinthe
Banned
"Gamers quickly noticed and complained that Killzone's multiplayer graphics were blurry to the point of distraction," Ladore's complaint alleges.
Did they? I thought nobody noticed until DF literally did a pixel count? At least that's how I recall it going down.
Did they? I thought nobody noticed until DF literally did a pixel count? At least that's how I recall it going down.
He seems to have closed his account.
hellmonkey
Member
Im not blindly defending corporation, Sony got what they deserved for the way they advertised the Vita, but this is fucking stupid, I don't care how you slice it. At no one time did I ever think KZ was blurry in any sense of the word.
FFS, how nit picky do you want to get with this. You want to sue because background and foreground are 1080p, but the foliage is rendered at 720p? Same goes for lighting, shadows, HUD, menues, load screens. Are we going to sue if every single aspect of any game is not rendered at 1080p if it says it is on the box?
Again, this one is fucking stupid.
If the frame outputted from the pipeline is 1080p then I'd call it 1080p.
Whether or not I think the IQ of the image is better or worse off for it is a different matter. You could notice the difference on BF4 and I don't think it did the IQ any favors for up-scaling it with the technique they used.
I thought it was when they did their GDC talk. But I remember it not being an issue for a good few months at least.
LookAtMeGo
Member
Watch this start a chain reaction. Look out Ubi!
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
That would be more worthwhile given how bad Ubisoft is managing the issue.
Kssio_Aug
Member
Hopefully it will.
And no... thats not pathetic. Why the hell people are claiming its pathetic to lawsuit them, and actually not the other way around for false advertising (no, its not native 1080p).
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
This was dark10x's analysis of the approximation technique.
Here's a shot taken while rotating the camera at a medium steady rate (taken from a capture card rather than using the built-in sharing feature).
Considering the technique being used, I'm impressed with how artifact free the image appears in motion. From what I can see, this type of rendering has the most noticeable impact on thin objects (such as fences) but even then it simply looks as if it is part of the camera blur.
Here's the same area taken with maximum camera rotation speed. Motion blur is in full effect. If you look at the metal flooring you can see increased aliasing with larger steps but the image still looks good. Without the excellent motion blur it would certainly be more obvious.
I'd love to know just how many resources this technique frees up. It could be a real alternative to traditional rendering that would allow for a higher framerate without the massive loss in image quality associated with lowering overall resolution (which really only looks bad as a result of scaling).
Also, just for fun, here's a shot with the PS4 set to output at 720p. The system is downscaling the image so jaggies are minimized compared to what you'd get with a traditional 720p image. When blown up to 1080p it looks dramatically worse than the 960x1080 method they used.
Click on the images to see them at full resolution.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
People "complained" it was blurry but because it had been listed as 1080p, people assumed it was some AA method. Even when DF did their pixel count, they still came up as 1080p. It was only when Guerilla discussed the technical aspects of the game and talked about the multiplayer, that people realised what was going on. It's still a 1080p image, but done in such a way that it only renders half of the pixels per frame, using the last frame to approximate the remainder of the current frame.
Obviously our definition of what rendering at native resolution is differs.
...Scatter...
Banned
I don't know what to think. On one hand companies should be honest in advertising. On the other hand this sets a bad precedent and could increase the cost of development leading to higher prices to pad the attorney fund.
Looks like it.
As far as I'm concerned if it outputs 1080p then it is. I don't feel there's any need to muddy the definition when any attempt to deviate from processing 1920x1080 pixels is going to harm the IQ. At the end of the day the IQ of the frames out is what you see.
I'm often ashamed of the American legal system. All this hoopla and we'll get what, a PSN credit for $.37? Two years from now...
By that definition, every game on Xbox 360 renders at native 1080p.
It's easy to say "but upscaling", but where do we draw the line? If we require that any interpolation technique not produce any obvious artifacts or reveal the lack of spatial data, KZSF MP doesn't entirely pass the test, as it does experience strange artifacts on thin geometry, and it does revert to traditional spatial upscaling in areas of the image where the game realizes that the temporal coherency is lost.
The core issue here is that people are trying to describe resolution in a single number, in a world where that simply isn't very descriptive, and meanwhile everyone is conflating sample res and output res and blah blah blah in all kinds of matchups that nobody can agree on.
Guerilla's claim about native resolution isn't blatantly true or blatantly false; it exists without a solid definition for "native resolution."
Well, that's basically what's happening. KZSF MP's technique is essentially TAA, although since the output buffer is larger than the spatial sampling buffers, successful reprojection boosts clarity in addition to improving stability.
InsaneTiger
Member
Can we sue Bungie/Activision misrepresenting the scale and scope of Destiny?
SEGAvangelist
Member
@PNF4LYFE and friends to start legal proceedings against Aaron Greenberg and Microsoft Studios!
For what? It's slimy, but he chose to avoid using the word native for a reason.
WonkyPanda
Member
What are you even ashamed of? This hasn't progressed anywhere. Sony's 12(b)(6), for the most part, was denied. What's shameful about it? That the movant doesn't get things construed favorably to themselves? That would be preposterous.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
This is crazy. I'm sure game devs would admit even if a game actually runs at native 1080p some buffers in a game might not actually be native. Does that mean these game devs will be next on the list?
Zeuanimals
Member
"You see those mountains, you can go there."
Fucking gamers.
Oh no we have lower resolution shadow maps!
Zeuanimals
Member
EA was voted WORST COMPANY IN AMERICA, gamers live in a bubble and these things reflect that.
But I feel this kind of view does exactly what you claim you don't want to do, muddy the waters. If you allow several levels of quality to fall under the "native 1080p" tag then you muddy what "native 1080p" means.
and being at its very easy to draw a line as to what native 1080p entails (the games rendering buffers being 1080p) It's best for consumers to keep that line well defined else the term is left open to misuse, like Aron Greenburgs infamous "x1 outputs all games at 1080p" referring to the console upscaling from whatever resolution the game is rendering at. And while Killzones upscaling algorithm is really good and has very few artefacts, the fact remains that the game is not being rendered at native 1080p and because of that there is a small loss in image quality.
this is unrealted really, as when the term "rendered in native 1080p" is used it usually refers to the rendering of the geometry, its is quite normal for shadow maps and the like to be a different resolution.
AFAIK, the single player is 1080p, but the multiplayer is more comparable to 1080i. I can't remember the details, but I think it uses some sort of technology so it's never rendering 1920x1080 at once, but rather switching between horizontal lines of resolution.
CadetMahoney
Member
Sony is weak right now. The company is upturned and has exposed a weak spot which ppl can use to get some of dat $$$.