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Kobe Bryant slinging homophobic slur during nationally televised NBA game

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Kinitari said:
So let me ask you straight up - do you think if a gay man is near, and one man calls another man a 'faggot' for whatever reason, and that gay man remembers being called a faggot and spit on, or beat, or yelled at by his father - is that gay man overreacting when his chest tightens, when he gets angry? When he gets sad or upset?

No, I don't think that gay man is overreacting. He deserves respect and shouldn't have to tolerate that. I believe in the equality of everyone, I just don't understand why nigger and faggot are always intertwined whenever someone black is accused of being homophobic.
 

Gaborn

Member
Infernodash said:
No, I don't think that gay man is overreacting. He deserves respect and shouldn't have to tolerate that. I believe in the equality of everyone, I just don't understand why nigger and faggot are always intertwined whenever someone black is accused of being homophobic.

Nobody is accusing Kobe of being homophobic, except to the extent that the term itself is incredibly homophobic.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Infernodash said:
No, I don't think that gay man is overreacting. He deserves respect and shouldn't have to tolerate that. I believe in the equality of everyone, I just don't understand why nigger and faggot are always intertwined whenever someone black is accused of being homophobic.

I don't even think anyone is accusing Kobe of being homophobic, at least not in this thread. And that's exactly why nigger is brought up. As a black person, maybe taking that into considering, thinking "What if nigger was used like I just used faggot right now, how would I feel" - that should be what is on his mind. If you are of another minority, and you freely use the word faggot, apply whatever slur that people apply to you, and imagine if that was an insult thrown around. How would that feel, how would you feel knowing that it wasn't taboo to put down who you were?

We've used Nigger, Kike, Wetback, Chink - Nigger just seems to upset people the most.
 
Kinitari said:
Uhm... the same thing happens with the word faggot. When you call someone bad at sports a 'faggot' - you attribute the stereotype that gay people are bad at sports. When you do it with effeminate men, or emotional men, same thing.

I've never heard of anyone outside of a black person be called a nigger. How normal is it to call a lazy non-working white male a nigger? It's not...
 
Kinitari said:
I don't even think anyone is accusing Kobe of being homophobic, at least not in this thread. And that's exactly why nigger is brought up. As a black person, maybe taking that into considering, thinking "What if nigger was used like I just used faggot right now, how would I feel" - that should be what is on his mind. If you are of another minority, and you freely use the word faggot, apply whatever slur that people apply to you, and imagine if that was an insult thrown around. How would that feel, how would you feel knowing that it wasn't taboo to put down who you were?

We've used Nigger, Kike, Wetback, Chink - Nigger just seems to upset people the most.


I thought the consensus believed that Kobe was being homophobic. Sorry for my misunderstanding. However, I do think the word was wrong to be said and I hope he learns from the backlash.
 

Dead Man

Member
Infernodash said:
I've never heard of anyone outside of a black person be called a nigger. How normal is it to call a lazy non-working white male a nigger? It's not...
You are so close to getting the point, but not. How about calling a non Jewish person who is tight with their money a Jew? Is that racist?
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Infernodash said:
It's certainly a unique situation, but I understand where you're coming from.

Edit: And I still don't think it's common.

It isn't common - but imagine if it were. Imagine if people could use it as a put down as often as they used faggot as a put down. When I played WoW and people would say stuff like "You guys are all a bunch of niggers!" - when they got mad they didn't get loot, that didn't feel good - and that was on some silly online video game. How would I feel if a person had an outburst in real life, threw around the word nigger, and instead of him being immediately condemned people defended him "Well just hold on Kinitari, I am not condoning what he said, but he was really upset, and when he said nigger, he didn't say it at you or any other black people, just at his white boss - it happens from time to time, grow some thicker skin and get used to it".
 
Dead Man said:
You are so close to getting the point, but not. How about calling a non Jewish person who is tight with their money a Jew? Is that racist?

It's a loaded question, Jewish men and women practice Judaism, and they're technically an ethnicity. Moreover, A black individual can be Jewish as well. I understand the point though, the insult is meant to attach the stereotype to that person. Overall, it's wrong.
 

Gaborn

Member
Infernodash said:
It's a loaded question, Jewish men and women practice Judaism, and they're technically an ethnicity. Moreover, A black individual can be Jewish as well. I understand the point though, the insult is meant to attach the stereotype to that person. Overall, it's wrong.

a black person can be gay as well. Also effeminate or not effeminate.
 

numble

Member
Dead Man said:
You are so close to getting the point, but not. How about calling a non Jewish person who is tight with their money a Jew? Is that racist?
It may be stereotyping and narrow-minded but not necessarily prejudicial or bigotry. If people say the Japanese work hard, or the Chinese are the best capitalists, it is stereotyping, but may not be racism unless they are meaning to demean the race or look down upon them.
 
Kinitari said:
It isn't common - but imagine if it were. Imagine if people could use it as a put down as often as they used faggot as a put down. When I played WoW and people would say stuff like "You guys are all a bunch of niggers!" - when they got mad they didn't get loot, that didn't feel good - and that was on some silly online video game. How would I feel if a person had an outburst in real life, threw around the word nigger, and instead of him being immediately condemned people defended him "Well just hold on Kinitari, I am not condoning what he said, but he was really upset, and when he said nigger, he didn't say it at you or any other black people, just at his white boss - it happens from time to time, grow some thicker skin and get used to it".

When you put it like that, I do see the error in my reasoning. Sorry if my stance offended you.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Infernodash said:
When you put it like that, I do see the error in my reasoning. Sorry if my stance offended you.

Your stance has done absolutely nothing to offend me, don't apologize - you've been open, honest and very straight forward with your positioning. Sincerely, I think I appreciate your posts the most in this thread.
 
Gaborn said:
a black person can be gay as well. Also effeminate or not effeminate.

That's not the argument here. I was incorrectly stating that faggot doesn't always have to be sexually based, whereas nigger is always race based and meant to demean a race. At the end, I realize the stereotypes still apply when the words are used and I get that now. But let's not get circular. Stating a and referring back to a isn't a sound argument.
 

Dead Man

Member
Infernodash said:
It's a loaded question, Jewish men and women practice Judaism, and they're technically an ethnicity. Moreover, A black individual can be Jewish as well. I understand the point though, the insult is meant to attach the stereotype to that person. Overall, it's wrong.
Yeah, it is a loaded question, I think that was my point. It would be wrong, and still hurtful to Jewish people even if it was only said to non-Jewish people.

Kinitari said:
It isn't common - but imagine if it were. Imagine if people could use it as a put down as often as they used faggot as a put down. When I played WoW and people would say stuff like "You guys are all a bunch of niggers!" - when they got mad they didn't get loot, that didn't feel good - and that was on some silly online video game. How would I feel if a person had an outburst in real life, threw around the word nigger, and instead of him being immediately condemned people defended him "Well just hold on Kinitari, I am not condoning what he said, but he was really upset, and when he said nigger, he didn't say it at you or any other black people, just at his white boss - it happens from time to time, grow some thicker skin and get used to it".
Again, you put it better than me.

Infernodash said:
When you put it like that, I do see the error in my reasoning. Sorry if my stance offended you.
I can't speak for Kinitari, but no offence from me, glad his post made more sense to you.

numble said:
It may be stereotyping and narrow-minded but not necessarily prejudicial or bigotry. If people say the Japanese work hard, or the Chinese are the best capitalists, it is stereotyping, but may not be racism unless they are meaning to demean the race or look down upon them.
But do you think it would be wrong to call a person who is tight with their money Jewish? Is the offence lessened if the target of the statement is not Jewish? Or does the fact that they are being compared with a negative stereotype as an insult make it also an insult to Jewish people?

Anyway, thanks to everyone who is maintaining the civil discourse in here.
 
Kinitari said:
Your stance has done absolutely nothing to offend me, don't apologize - you've been open, honest and very straight forward with your positioning. Sincerely, I think I appreciate your posts the most in this thread.

Thank you for understanding.
 

Gaborn

Member
Infernodash said:
That's not the argument here. I was incorrectly stating that faggot doesn't always have to be sexually based, whereas nigger is always race based and meant to demean a race. At the end, I realize the stereotypes still apply when the words are used and I get that now. But let's not get circular. Stating a and referring back to a isn't a sound argument.

Ah, fair enough, sorry, I was distracted watching my Tigers.
 

HeySeuss

Member
I always got a chuckle out of one of my coworkers that was a lesbian. Everytime she got really upset and to the point where she couldn't go any further in an argument, she would always lash out at the person by saying "fucking f****t!".

Evertime she would say it we would all just shake our heads at the irony. I've heard it said by a couple of other of my gay friends but not nearly as often.
 

numble

Member
Dead Man said:
But do you think it would be wrong to call a person who is tight with their money Jewish? Is the offence lessened if the target of the statement is not Jewish? Or does the fact that they are being compared with a negative stereotype as an insult make it also an insult to Jewish people?
All stereotypes are by their definition negative, and they're an insult because stereotyping anything is an insult to individuality of members of the group. But do they rise to bigotry, prejudice, and racism? Ignorance, always, but sometimes it may not mean that the speaker believes that the group is inferior and non-equal.
 

Gaborn

Member
numble said:
All stereotypes are by their definition negative, and they're an insult because stereotyping anything is an insult to individuality of members of the group. But do they rise to bigotry, prejudice, and racism? Ignorance, always, but sometimes it may not mean that the speaker believes that the group is inferior and non-equal.

This isn't about whether Kobe himself is homophobic, no one can truly know another person's heart. The fact is the words themselves are homophobic and wrong and shouldn't have been said. As you said, they're ignorant.
 

numble

Member
Gaborn said:
This isn't about whether Kobe himself is homophobic, no one can truly know another person's heart. The fact is the words themselves are homophobic and wrong and shouldn't have been said. As you said, they're ignorant.
Yes, but I'm replying to his initial question of whether it is racist to refer to someone being tight with their money as Jewish. I'm saying that not all stereotypical statements are racist, because racism is a belief that a certain race is inferior. Otherwise a lot of GAF would be seen as racist towards Germans and prejudiced towards Australians and Floridans, because of all the stereotypes they adopt toward GAF.
 

Dead Man

Member
numble said:
Yes, but I'm replying to his initial question of whether it is racist to refer to someone being tight with their money as Jewish. I'm saying that not all stereotypical statements are racist, because racism is a belief that a certain race is inferior. Otherwise a lot of GAF would be seen as racist towards Germans and prejudiced towards Australians and Floridans, because of all the stereotypes they adopt toward GAF.
Racism is the attributing a universal characteristic to a group of people linked by ethnicity. You seem to be avoiding answering the question by quibbling over the details of definitions. Cool. Never mind.
 

numble

Member
Dead Man said:
Racism is the attributing a universal characteristic to a group of people linked by ethnicity. You seem to be avoiding answering the question by quibbling over the details of definitions. Cool. Never mind.
That's not racism. Maybe a PC version of racism equates denoting stereotypes to racism, but the traditional definition of racism includes a belief in superiority over the other race. When people are posting about cultural differences in the expat or Teaching English in Asia thread, its often highly stereotypical, but not always racist.
 
enzom21 said:
Take Mercury Fred for example, he said he called a black cashier at a store a nigger and she should get over it or something along those lines to make a point about people defending Kobe's use of faggot, or the time he posted pictures of black men being lynched because 50 cent said something stupid. Now I doubt Mercury Fred hates black people but he sure loves to take things to the extreme and toss around nigger willy-nilly.
I'm sorry, but are you crazy?

I think it's fucking disgusting that anyone would call anyone a nigger. And I think that lynchings were an atrocious and evil example of domestic terrorism against black people. And I feel the same way about someone calling someone else a faggot. Or when a guy gets literally beaten to death because he's gay. I used the cashier "example" (which, hello, was nothing more than an over the top device to point out how absurd it is to toss around charged epithets and expect that they function as anything other than charged epithets). I posted the lynching picture for the same reason-- to demonstrate the double standard that happens when 50 Cent tweets about violence against gays and how funny it apparently is.

I've fought against racism in the real world, protested, ended a friendship with an old friend who was a closet racist and will call out family members at big holiday gatherings if someone says something messed up and racist. I have no problem calling out racism when I see it popping up in the gay community.

So you might not like my approach but you can really just fuck off if you think that I just love tossing around the N-word.
 

Dead Man

Member
numble said:
That's not racism. Maybe a PC version of racism equates denoting stereotypes to racism, but the traditional definition of racism includes a belief in superiority over the other race. When people are posting about cultural differences in the expat or Teaching English in Asia thread, its often highly stereotypical, but not always racist.
Okay, forget the word racism for a moment. Would it be okay? Would you find it acceptable to call a person Jewish for being tight with money? Why?
 

numble

Member
Dead Man said:
Okay, forget the word racism for a moment. Would it be okay? Would you find it acceptable to call a person Jewish for being tight with money? Why?
No, I don't find it acceptable, but I would not say it has the same effect as calling a black person a nigger, or even a white person a nigger. The word is embedded with connotations of racial superiority, in a way that saying "Jewish people are cheap," "Asians are good at math," or "Germans, Australians and Floridians do stupid things" is not. All of the statements are ignorant, but the word nigger says that person is of a subhuman class.
 

Dead Man

Member
numble said:
No, I don't find it acceptable, but I would not say it has the same effect as calling a black person a nigger, or even a white person a nigger. The word is embedded with connotations of racial superiority, in a way that saying "Jewish people are cheap," "Asians are good at math," or "Germans, Australians and Floridians do stupid things" is not. All of the statements are ignorant, but the word nigger says that person is of a subhuman class.
Calling someone a kike or similar for being cheap is not just saying Jewish people are cheap. Calling a Jew a kike is not just saying Jewish people are cheap. And saying Jewish people are cheap is not like saying Asians are good at math or people from country x do activity y. But okay, analogies may not be your forte. It appears you feel that nigger is incomparably worse than any other word. I guess we're done here then?

Edit: You still have not answered the bloody question, either!!
 

numble

Member
Dead Man said:
Calling someone a kike or similar for being cheap is not just saying Jewish people are cheap. Calling a Jew a kike is not just saying Jewish people are cheap. And saying Jewish people are cheap is not saying Asians are good at math. But okay, analogies may not be your forte. It appears you feel that nigger is incomparably worse than any other word. I guess we're done here then?
You said "Racism is the attributing a universal characteristic to a group of people linked by ethnicity," those examples you just listed are all "attributing a universal characteristic to a group of people linked by ethnicity." Under your definition, it's all the same racism.

We were never discussing the word, "kike" by the way. So I don't know why you're creating that strawman.

I've never said that the word nigger is incomparably worse than any other word, just worse than your specific example, and the examples I made.

Edit: What question are you asking? I've already said above that all stereotypes are insults because they take away from individuality of a person from the group. That applies whether you apply the stereotype to a member of the actual group or not.
 

mavs

Member
Dead Man said:
Calling someone a kike or similar for being cheap is not just saying Jewish people are cheap. Calling a Jew a kike is not just saying Jewish people are cheap. And saying Jewish people are cheap is not like saying Asians are good at math or people from country x do activity y. But okay, analogies may not be your forte. It appears you feel that nigger is incomparably worse than any other word. I guess we're done here then?

Edit: You still have not answered the bloody question, either!!

So what's your endgame here? What if he simply doesn't think it's as bad? Or he says it's as bad, what does that mean?
 

Dead Man

Member
numble said:
You said "Racism is the attributing a universal characteristic to a group of people linked by ethnicity," those examples you just listed are all "attributing a universal characteristic to a group of people linked by ethnicity." Under your definition, it's all the same racism.

We were never discussing the word, "kike" by the way. So I don't know why you're creating that strawman.

I've never said that the word nigger is incomparably worse than any other word, just worse than your specific example, and the examples I made.

Edit: What question are you asking? I've already said above that all stereotypes are insults because they take away from individuality of a person from the group. That applies whether you apply the stereotype to a member of the actual group or not.
The question was, why? But I see you have answered it now. That seems a very mild reason to be offended, but if that is your feeling, that's cool. I am trying to extrapolate your position from a lot of statements that are just denials of my questions, but would feel there is any difference then between saying 'hey, Australians make some stupid statements about golliwogs' and Hey, you fucking Jew, stop being so tight.'?

mavs said:
So what's your endgame here? What if he simply doesn't think it's as bad? Or he says it's as bad, what does that mean?
I have no endgame, I was trying to understand why he seemed so intent on avoiding my initial question, that related to the concept that calling someone a faggot is a mark of bigotry. He also seems (and I may be wrong here) to feel that all stereotypes are pretty much equal, regardless of the history of them, judging by the comparisons he made, except for one. I may be wrong here that is why I am asking questions.
 

numble

Member
Dead Man said:
The question was, why? But I see you have answered it now. That seems a very mild reason to be offended, but if that is your feeling, that's cool. I am trying to extrapolate your position from a lot of statements that are just denials of my questions, but would feel there is any difference then between saying 'hey, Australians make some stupid statements about golliwogs' and Hey, you fucking Jew, stop being so tight.'?
Of course there's a difference. And that's also a difference from calling "a person Jewish for being tight with money," your initial example. Context matters, especially if we're removed from epithets that carry baggage. If you say, "wow, you can really hold your liquor, it's like you've got a Russian liver," it's different than "you're a drunk fucking Russky." Saying "you fucking Jew" negatively about a person's money management is different from Chinese saying they want to be like the Jews.

Dead Man said:
I have no endgame, I was trying to understand why he seemed so intent on avoiding my initial question, that related to the concept that calling someone a faggot is a mark of bigotry.
This line of discussion is only in reply to your statement of whether it was racist to call someone a Jew for being cheap, it has no connection to the other discussions.

Dead Man said:
He also seems (and I may be wrong here) to feel that all stereotypes are pretty much equal, regardless of the history of them, judging by the comparisons he made, except for one. I may be wrong here that is why I am asking questions.

You actually seem to be the one that said all stereotypes are equal to racism. "Racism is the attributing a universal characteristic to a group of people linked by ethnicity". I've said that it is not always necessarily the case. I don't know how you translate that to "all stereotypes are equal."
 

Dead Man

Member
numble said:
Of course there's a difference. And that's also a difference from calling "a person Jewish for being tight with money," your initial example. Context matters, especially if we're removed from epithets that carry baggage. If you say, "wow, you can really hold your liquor, it's like you've got a Russian liver," it's different than "you're a drunk fucking Russky." Saying "you fucking Jew" negatively about a person's money management is different from Chinese saying they want to be like the Jews.


This line of discussion is only in reply to your statement of whether it was racist to call someone a Jew for being cheap, it has no connection to the other discussions.



You actually seem to be the one that said all stereotypes are equal to racism. "Racism is the attributing a universal characteristic to a group of people linked by ethnicity". I've said that it is not always necessarily the case. I don't know how you translate that to "all stereotypes are equal."
Okay.
 

Satyamdas

Banned
Dead Man said:
XOkJn.jpg


Dead Man
I got p 2 tha owned
p-o-w-n-e-d


J/K dude, even though you called me obnoxious. >:|
 

AZ Greg

Member
Sadly, this whole issue and the reactions from the gay community just show how far that movement has to go. The fact that Kobe's comment has led to this rallying of the troops just shows that the people on the front lines of this movement, from group leaders to bloggers to forum posters, are not only barking up the wrong tree, but they need to speak with an arborist to find out exactly what a tree is.

The comparisons with racial slurs are kinda laughable. As someone else already mentioned, you don't call a white guy a "nigger" or "wetback", for example. Those are 99.9% of the time tossed at the people who are associated with those words' definitions. And when you combine the derogatory meanings of those words with directing them at the named audience then you can understand why that audience dislikes the word and takes offense. On the other hand, "faggot" is, as many have mentioned, often just being used as a general insult and it's safe to say that the majority of the time it's being used towards people who aren't even homosexual. Now is it unintelligent to use it in this manner? Yes. Do I understand why homosexuals get a little upset that there is a word tossed around to insult people that basically insults their way of life? Absolutely. Should Kobe Bryant be above it? Sure. But if I were homosexual I don't think it would offend me considering I'd know that Kobe more than likely wasn't thinking "Hey, I'm gonna insult this referee by telling him that he likes other men!"

Which leaves the one potential issue that I can understand homosexuals having with what Kobe said. And that's the role model aspect of the whole thing. But I think we have a chicken and egg situation here. I'm an avid sports fan and I didn't know Kobe said this until I saw various places on the internet, like GAF, discussing it. I've now gone back and seen the clip. Because the gay community is making a big deal out of it you have shows repeatedly showing the clip and discussing it. So if you were an impressionable 11 year old and you missed your basketball hero dropping "faggot" out there then don't worry! You'll have plenty more opportunities to see it thanks to the outrage from the gay community and them helping to keep it on the front page!

I can't imagine what would have happened to the African-American Civil Rights Movement if a huge deal was made every time the word "nigger" was used. There are bigger fish to fry.
 
I didn't know making bad referee decisions was a trait stereotyped with homosexuals?

It wasn't like calling someone a Jew because they're tight with money. It's like calling someone a Jew because, in your opinion, they made a bad decision in a basketball game. Or calling them a nigger or whatever!
 

Satyamdas

Banned
Dead Man said:
You're not really changing my opinion with that post.

J/K dude! :/
I'm not really worried about your opinion of me, in case that wasn't clear.

Look, I understand this subject may be important to you, and that's fine. But what you called obnoxious was just a little attempt at levity in a goddamn ocean of SRS BSNS OUTRAGE!!1!!!1 posts. I mean I did wait until the semantic bickering had reached 40+ pages before gently ribbing my debating pals.

I may disagree with Gaborn on almost everything, but I do appreciate his ability to sporadically not take himself so seriously. Maybe take a deep breath and just shrug some shit off, or maybe crack a joke of your own? I am quite confident no one will take your points any less seriously. It's not like they haven't been made 42239 times already in this thread.
:p

Seriously, no hard feelings man. Take a joke and give one back once in a while. Eases the stress, I promise.
 

Dead Man

Member
Satyamdas said:
I'm not really worried about your opinion of me, in case that wasn't clear.

Look, I understand this subject may be important to you, and that's fine. But what you called obnoxious was just a little attempt at levity in a goddamn ocean of SRS BSNS OUTRAGE!!1!!!1 posts. I mean I did wait until the semantic bickering had reached 40+ pages before gently ribbing my debating pals.

I may disagree with Gaborn on almost everything, but I do appreciate his ability to sporadically not take himself so seriously. Maybe take a deep breath and just shrug some shit off, or maybe crack a joke of your own? I am quite confident no one will take your points any less seriously. It's not like they haven't been made 42239 times already in this thread.
:p

Seriously, no hard feelings man. Take a joke and give one back once in a while. Eases the stress, I promise.
Eh, fair enough, I am just sick of being told how it feels to be x, and that it in no way compares to be y.

Anyway, I'm not upset, just wish people would acknowledge that people can empathise and understand things even if they may not have directly experienced exactly the same situation.

But yeah, normally I do have a better sense of humour, you're right. Sorry if I offended you.
 

Satyamdas

Banned
Dead Man said:
Eh, fair enough, I am just sick of being told how it feels to be x, and that it in no way compares to be y.

Anyway, I'm not upset, just wish people would acknowledge that people can empathise and understand things even if they may not have directly experienced exactly the same situation.

But yeah, normally I do have a better sense of humour, you're right. Sorry if I offended you.
No offense taken, and none intended. I'm glad we could resolve this like gentlemen. :)
 
Response from former NBA star and gay man John Amaechi:

15offthedribble-combine-blog480.jpg

Kobe Bryant isn’t some great, bigoted monster, as some have implied, but he isn’t the innocent victim of some overblown one-off incident about a word that’s “not even that bad,” either.


This controversy is not a storm in a teacup turned into a vendetta by loony liberals, as many in the sports world seem to think. What our heroes say and do means something — and in an America where sports stars carry more influence and in some cases more credibility than senators, what they say matters more than ever.


When someone with the status of Kobe Bryant, arguably the best basketball player in a generation, hurls that antigay slur at a referee or anyone else — let’s call it the F-word — he is telling boys, men and anyone watching that when you are frustrated, when you are as angry as can be, the best way to demean and denigrate a person, even one in a position of power, is to make it clear that you think he is not a real man, but something less.



I challenge you to freeze-frame Bryant’s face in that moment of conflict with the referee Bennie Adams. Really examine the loathing and utter contempt, and realize this is something with which almost every lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender person is familiar. That is the sentiment people face in middle and high schools, in places of worship, work and even in their own homes across the United States.



Right now in America young people are being killed and killing themselves simply because of the words and behaviors they are subjected to for being perceived as lesbian or gay, or frankly just different. This is not an indictment of the individuals suffocated by their mistreatment, it is an indication of the power of that word, and others like it, to brutalize and dehumanize. This F-word, which so many people seem to think is no big deal, is the postscript to too many of those lives cut short.


As for the original apology, I am amazed that people still think apologizing in such a way as to make it clear that it was the victims who misunderstood is acceptable. I had hoped that the sorry-if-you-are-oversensitive school of apology would by now have been thoroughly discredited.


Many people balk when L.G.B.T. people, even black ones, suggest that the power and vitriol behind another awful slur — the N-word — is no different from the word used by Kobe. I make no attempt at an analogy between the historical civil rights struggle for blacks in the United States with the current human rights struggle for L.G.B.T. people, but I can say that I am frequently called both, and the indignation, anger and at times resignation that course through my body are no greater or less for either. I know with both words the intent is to let me know that no matter how big, how accomplished, philanthropic or wise I may become, to them I am not even human.

I am tired of people having this debate about the relative impact of pejorative words on their target minority group.
If injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, then the relative power of an antigay gay slur is irrelevant, it is simply a threat to human dignity, and that should appall us all.


I don’t think Kobe Bryant is some vicious homophobe, but I do think he made a mistake and has sounded more like a squirming politician than a national hero since the incident came to light. When you know that people hang on your every word, you should take more responsibility when the wrong words spill out in anger. When you understand that people treat you like a god, you should endeavor to be more benevolent when you exceed expectations and more contrite when you let people down.


I started playing basketball at age 17 in the United Kingdom. I went from the fat child who hid in the corner of the library to starting in the N.B.A. six years later. Despite my efforts, I couldn’t hold a candle to Kobe, but even with my limited prominence, I always knew two things: I was always under scrutiny and what I did and said mattered more because of that.


Kobe, stop fighting the fine. You spoke ill-advised words that shot out like bullets, and if the e-mails I received from straight and gay young people and sports fans in Los Angeles alone are anything to go by, you did serious damage with your outburst.


A young man from a Los Angeles public school e-mailed me. You are his idol. He is playing up, on the varsity team, he has your posters all over his room, and he hopes one day to play in college and then in the N.B.A. with you. He used to fall asleep with images of passing you the ball to sink a game-winning shot. He watched every game you played this season on television, but this week he feels less safe and less positive about himself because he stared adoringly into your face as you said the word that haunts him in school every single day.


Kobe, stop fighting the fine. Use that money and your influence to set a new tone that tells sports fans, boys, men and the society that looks up to you that the word you said in anger is not O.K., not ever. Too many athletes take the trappings of their hard-earned success and leave no tangible legacy apart from “that shot” or “that special game.”


Kobe Bryant is powerful enough to make an important change in the way we look at real equality in sports and in general. Kobe is one of sport’s heroes, one of sport’s gods, and I hope it’s not too much to ask for the occasional good deed worthy of those titles.

SOURCE


I bolded for the people with the attention span of a mouse, but the whole thing is worth reading.
 

Dead Man

Member
Souldriver said:
Response from former NBA star and gay man John Amaechi:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/04/15/sports/basketball/15offthedribble-combine/15offthedribble-combine-blog480.jpg[IMG]


[URL="http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/a-gay-former-player-responds-to-kobe-bryant/"]SOURCE[/URL]


I bolded for the people with the attention span of a mouse, but the whole thing is worth reading.[/QUOTE]
That is a great article, hopefully it helps people understand why there has been some outrage.
 
Very good article, I am very unwilling to believe the "f" word has gone beyond a derogatory term for gay people like some have suggested here.

This is really for Gaborn, as he's always interested in news stories about LGBT.

Two dudes were kicked out of a London pub a few days ago after a staff member saw them kissing and called it "obscene". Today, 200 people were outside the pub for a "kiss-in" (obviously intended to be inside but the pub got wise to it).

Hundreds attend "kiss-in" outside John Snow pub after venue closes its doors

The Guardian said:
While the event urged same-sex individuals to engage in kissing, embraces were generally in short supply – although several participants made up for the lack of quantity with a large amount of enthusiasm. Michael Peacock, who described himself as a full-time male escort and was sporting red leather trousers with lace-up posterior, was one of the more enthusiastic.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
AZ Greg said:
The comparisons with racial slurs are kinda laughable. As someone else already mentioned, you don't call a white guy a "nigger" or "wetback", for example. Those are 99.9% of the time tossed at the people who are associated with those words' definitions. And when you combine the derogatory meanings of those words with directing them at the named audience then you can understand why that audience dislikes the word and takes offense. On the other hand, "faggot" is, as many have mentioned, often just being used as a general insult and it's safe to say that the majority of the time it's being used towards people who aren't even homosexual. Now is it unintelligent to use it in this manner? Yes. Do I understand why homosexuals get a little upset that there is a word tossed around to insult people that basically insults their way of life? Absolutely. Should Kobe Bryant be above it? Sure. But if I were homosexual I don't think it would offend me considering I'd know that Kobe more than likely wasn't thinking "Hey, I'm gonna insult this referee by telling him that he likes other men!"

I absolutely couldn't disagree more, so I am going to press you on this.

You say personally, you wouldn't feel offended if you were gay, the word faggot in this context wouldn't offend you - that's fine. You also said that you understand homosexuals getting 'a little pissed' hearing it used in this context.

But you specifically say that it is different than someone throwing around nigger as a general insult - why? The only reason you have is -precedent-, and that is absolutely not a good reason. Just because people DON'T do it, doesn't mean if they did consistently, it wouldn't be something worth fighting against. I can tell you right now, I do not like it whatsoever when I am around people who throw around the word faggot as a general (and not so general to be honest) insult. If people did the same thing with nigger, it would have a substantially different effect on me - and I haven't been met with a lot of racism in my life or anything.

The comparison with racial slurs is not only apt, it is the best comparison to use, you say yourself that it is immature and that the word should not be used in the manner it is - how better to help people understand than to connect with them on a deeper meaning. Both black people and gay people have been spit and and called a nigger or a faggot, they've been beaten and called niggers or faggots, they've been ostracised by those around them to the tune of those words and they've lost jobs or failed to obtain them to the tune of those words. They illicit the same effect in both people (not exactly the same, as the effect will vary from individual to individual, don't jump on me for this word) - so in a manner of speaking, it is the most apt comparison of all the slurs.

What Kobe was thinking was "I am going to insult this referee with the most offensive put down I can muster. I know what I could say - faggot"
 

Cloudy

Banned
Kobe, stop fighting the fine. You spoke ill-advised words that shot out like bullets, and if the e-mails I received from straight and gay young people and sports fans in Los Angeles alone are anything to go by, you did serious damage with your outburst.

How about he keep his hands out of someone else's pockets? Kobe apologized and has said he will help with LGBT issues, what more do people want? The fine in unprecedented and just a politically correct overreaction by Stern to get these groups off his league right at the start of the playoffs.

I doubt Kobe actually gives a shit about the amount but the player's union does and the fine will be appealed and reduced because it's crazy. What if a player who doesn't make as much as Kobe gets caught on tape saying something offensive in the future? Do they fine him the same? (NBA fines aren't based on player salaries)
 

Gaborn

Member
Cloudy said:
How about he keep his hands out of someone else's pockets? Kobe apologized and has said he will help with LGBT issues, what more do people want? The fine in unprecedented and just a politically correct overreaction by Stern to get these groups off his league right at the start of the playoffs.

I doubt Kobe actually gives a shit about the amount but the player's union does and the fine will be appealed and reduced because it's crazy. What if a player who doesn't make as much as Kobe gets caught on tape saying something offensive in the future? Do they fine him the same? (NBA fines aren't based on player salaries)

Which is why they should be.
 

Gaborn

Member
numble said:
So if Shaq said it, you'd fine him under $5000 (50% of his per game salary)?

I've said consistently Kobe should have either been fined 2 game checks or 1 game suspension. I would treat Shaq the same way.
 
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