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Let's clear up the reason for Squaresoft's "demise" and why Square and Enix merged
- Thread starter anaron
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Great topic. I always love reading newly discovered tidbits about what went down.
It still saddens me that Sakaguchi left the company. I just hope he ends up making another big game after The Last Story.
And I'll still be interested in new Square Enix games, as even though they lost the heart and soul (Sakaguchi and Uematsu, among others) they still put out decent games. But still, they might not ever be on the same level again.
It still saddens me that Sakaguchi left the company. I just hope he ends up making another big game after The Last Story.
And I'll still be interested in new Square Enix games, as even though they lost the heart and soul (Sakaguchi and Uematsu, among others) they still put out decent games. But still, they might not ever be on the same level again.
SkylineRKR
Member
Its a good thread but I doubt it'll help. People will eventually point at TSW as most outlets will continue to do so too.
Anyway, I wonder if that pompous ass still believes in fortune tellers, didn't work out so well did it?
Also, if the founder Miyamoto actually succeeded in blocking the merger, it would be the best thing that could've happen to Square.
Anyway, I wonder if that pompous ass still believes in fortune tellers, didn't work out so well did it?
Also, if the founder Miyamoto actually succeeded in blocking the merger, it would be the best thing that could've happen to Square.
Maybe, but the more this stuff is discussed and made aware we're at least moving a little bit forward.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
OP, amazing thread.
It basically sounds like a company had found a delicate balance between making money and nurturing a team that put out genuinely creative content. They had a misstep that they could have normally recovered from on their own, but some of the money and power hungry figures swooped in, and took advantage.
I guess between milking the FF name to plaster on anything and everything, the cellphone mess and green-lighting all of Toriyama's insanity, Yoichi Wada royally fucked Final Fantasy to hell and back. Damaged the series way more than Sakaguchi ever could have with TSW. I'm glad he's gone, but it hardly seems like SE's able to change course from the direction he rolled the company towards. :/
It basically sounds like a company had found a delicate balance between making money and nurturing a team that put out genuinely creative content. They had a misstep that they could have normally recovered from on their own, but some of the money and power hungry figures swooped in, and took advantage.
I guess between milking the FF name to plaster on anything and everything, the cellphone mess and green-lighting all of Toriyama's insanity, Yoichi Wada royally fucked Final Fantasy to hell and back. Damaged the series way more than Sakaguchi ever could have with TSW. I'm glad he's gone, but it hardly seems like SE's able to change course from the direction he rolled the company towards. :/
Noble Neckbeard
Banned
Wow, thanks OP. Read every last bit. Squaresoft was my favorite company of all time from 1997-2002. What a sad story.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Yeah it's really a bummer. Goes to show businesses like these need to be super protective of their internal culture and dynamics to preserve the quality of their output.
Pretty much. It's so disheartening and frankly fucked up to see the disturbing lack of that in this industry.
You're supposed to protect your talent seeing as how they're the reason people are buying your products. Nintendo thankfully has always been amazing in that regard and fellow Japanese companies desperately need to follow suit.
Happy new year GAF!
Fantastic thread!
It's so depressing to see how the stagnant mismanagemeent of SE managed to kill anything Squaresoft and do nothing for Enix.
I mean really look up all their properties.
they're worthless except for the milked FF/KH/DQ trifecta.
They even killed their middle budget games to nothing.
They killed Mana and fire Ishii,
they killed Saga (or what the hell is Kawazu doing?)
they killed FFT,
they lost Sting and countless others.
The only thing I'll keep with me from them are the Crystal Chronicles games they gave us.
the only bright spot in the future is Bravely Second for me :/ (BD is the best game I played in 2013/2014, it's really that good. Didn't play a game like that....since Xenoblade actually...thanks again SE, without you I'd never have gotten that either)
I hate the new Square Enix.
They absolutely never did.
You can't find any reference of its existence anywhere.
It's beyond a myth to find a copy of Romancing Saga and its sequel in English I'd say.
I mean even Starfox 2 you've got people talking about it and prototypes floating around.
On RS/RS2/RS3 you'll find translations and stuffs but never a full working copy anywhere.
At this point Shining Force 3 Scenario 2 in NTSC-US is actually somthing I'm more confident to exist.
It's pretty interesting really.
I mean Nintendo have issues (even in the software side, some would even argue that's where most of their problems are) but they largely avoided the pitfalls Square Enix fell into.
It's so crazy that even with our limited scope you can fully see why and how Nintendo manages to retain their talent and nurture future growth.
Fantastic thread!
It's so depressing to see how the stagnant mismanagemeent of SE managed to kill anything Squaresoft and do nothing for Enix.
I mean really look up all their properties.
they're worthless except for the milked FF/KH/DQ trifecta.
They even killed their middle budget games to nothing.
They killed Mana and fire Ishii,
they killed Saga (or what the hell is Kawazu doing?)
they killed FFT,
they lost Sting and countless others.
The only thing I'll keep with me from them are the Crystal Chronicles games they gave us.
the only bright spot in the future is Bravely Second for me :/ (BD is the best game I played in 2013/2014, it's really that good. Didn't play a game like that....since Xenoblade actually...thanks again SE, without you I'd never have gotten that either)
I hate the new Square Enix.
They absolutely never did.
You can't find any reference of its existence anywhere.
It's beyond a myth to find a copy of Romancing Saga and its sequel in English I'd say.
I mean even Starfox 2 you've got people talking about it and prototypes floating around.
On RS/RS2/RS3 you'll find translations and stuffs but never a full working copy anywhere.
At this point Shining Force 3 Scenario 2 in NTSC-US is actually somthing I'm more confident to exist.
It's pretty interesting really.
I mean Nintendo have issues (even in the software side, some would even argue that's where most of their problems are) but they largely avoided the pitfalls Square Enix fell into.
It's so crazy that even with our limited scope you can fully see why and how Nintendo manages to retain their talent and nurture future growth.
Antilurker77
Member
I don't really feel like Sakaguchi was as talented as people claim he is. Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey, and The Last Story were all very lackluster titles. BD and LO didn't experiment enough and felt too traditional while TLS felt underdeveloped. They just didn't have that "wow" factor. It feels like he's just reusing the same formula rather than trying to push genre forward.
SkylineRKR
Member
You have to take into consideration that he had to hand out development to studios such as Artoon and FeelPlus. For those studios, those projects are probably the best they ever made by far.
But as a gaming visionary, I think he's at his best when he has to appoint certain people to certain projects and as an overseer. When he directs and writes himself, he seems to hold on to a very classic standard. For me FF became top tier with FFVI, which is the first one he didn't direct himself but was producer and advisor.
I think Square does need people like him though, he's at least committed to his projects and he probably wouldn't allow his series to go down the shitter as is the case with the whole XIII ordeal.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
JoeyJungle
Banned
That should say 16.4 billion, not million. Really confused me for a few seconds there
oops, my bad! Thanks for pointing it out.
Antilurker77
Member
I could see that. Toriyama's waifu saga has been pretty mediocre, but even then it has it's own positives like its battle system. SE still has some talent. I guess FF15 will be the deciding factor on whether or not there's enough talent left to develop an outstanding mainline title.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
It's actually quite the opposite for Kitase. Being a producer is a great deal than directing, that is why Sakaguchi stops being a director since FFVI, and became a producer instead. Even then, he still has influence on scenario, until FFX. At that point, Kitase became a full-time producer who still has the say on the story to a certain extent.
Hiroyuki Ito is still in Square Enix. It's a good possibility that he's planning for FFXVI, but that is still up in the air.
Dirk Benedict
Member
This explains why I never saw a proper Final Fantasy Tactics 2.
Thank you for taking time out of your life to put this together, OP.
Thank you for taking time out of your life to put this together, OP.
DarkLordMalik
Member
Fantastic thread, one of the best on NeoGAF.
Man after reading Sakaguchi and Uematsu's interview in OP, i feel sad
Man after reading Sakaguchi and Uematsu's interview in OP, i feel sad
Relaxed Muscle
Member
But not a good director. And the movie was still a mess production wise.
He shouldn't have took the project or let it in hands of more capable ppl.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Square Enix should make a bold move and merge with Mistwalker.
A talent like Sakaguchi should not be relegated to making mobile games (which is what they're doing now in Mistwalker), same goes to Hiroyuki Ito and Yasumi Matsuno.
I would kill for another mainline FF that's produced/supervised by Sakaguchi, and directed by Ito and Matsuno.
A talent like Sakaguchi should not be relegated to making mobile games (which is what they're doing now in Mistwalker), same goes to Hiroyuki Ito and Yasumi Matsuno.
I would kill for another mainline FF that's produced/supervised by Sakaguchi, and directed by Ito and Matsuno.
I'm a lot more forgiving towards the endeavour knowing they were building the technology as they went along and what their long term goals for the studio were. It was poorly thought out certainly and should made an example of why this graphical and animation level were necessary; but their heart was in the right place and it probably would've been totally worth it in the long run had the film done better.
Ah, a painful dream to wake up from...
Earthpainting
Member
I must admit, that's an impressive way to open the thread. I figured it was going to be conjecture and rumours, so I'm pleasantly surprised by the amount of effort that went into it. Kudos!
Reading through this cements that Square lost too many of their key players in such a short amount of time, which resulted in the loss of so many of their fans. Sakaguchi of course being the most obvious and biggest loss. The man clearly was pretty forward thinking, and knew what worked and why. As others have pointed out, he also clearly had a good eye for new talent and giving them a shot to shine.
Reading through this cements that Square lost too many of their key players in such a short amount of time, which resulted in the loss of so many of their fans. Sakaguchi of course being the most obvious and biggest loss. The man clearly was pretty forward thinking, and knew what worked and why. As others have pointed out, he also clearly had a good eye for new talent and giving them a shot to shine.
RyougaSaotome
Member
Excellent thread with a carefully thought out structure, making it easy to follow and consume all the information.
Didn't expect to see such a good investigative thread so early in the year. Tweeted the fuck out of it.
Didn't expect to see such a good investigative thread so early in the year. Tweeted the fuck out of it.
Kageshinzo
Member
The things that you mentioned have been staples of Final Fantasy from the early titles up to FFX, so saying that they're only similar in the PSX titles is a bit incorrect. Hiroyuki Ito, who had been the battle system creator of various Final Fantasies (and the creator of the ATB, I believe), always made it a point to create different battle systems for each FF title so you can see why each FF has that similar feel to them. This is not even including the fact that there has always been a coherent commonality in the early Final Fantasies: The Prelude, the Prologue, chocobos, moogles, Cid, summons, and even the menu colors and fonts. These things are what makes a Final Fantasy fan immediately feel at home when starting new Final Fantasy games pre-PS2 era.
jeffrockz312
Member
Thanks OP. I love stuff like this.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
I specifically mentioned VII-IX as that's the generation of players I know best (being someone who started with VII myself), and they have the most similar presentation styles being that they're all in the PS1 era. I never said they weren't also similar to pre-VII games in many aspects.
Intense research!
Just a couple of comments:
People like to talk about SE being this failed company, but I think you have to look at it in perspective. How are companies like Capcom, Konami, Namco etc. all doing now compared to the Golden Age of Japanese development? So is it really that SE is a bad company or have they simply gotten caught up in the Western trend of development like everyone else.
As far as TSW, I have always felt, and still do, that the movie was too pandering to Western audience. It wreaked of Japanese company making content for Western consumption, not Japanese company making content for consumption. Anime tropes and dude-bros don't mix well. That being said, I think it would have failed anyway because it was too silly for adults, but too self-important for children. I think Square would have been better off making 3D Studio Ghibli ripoff films.
Just a couple of comments:
People like to talk about SE being this failed company, but I think you have to look at it in perspective. How are companies like Capcom, Konami, Namco etc. all doing now compared to the Golden Age of Japanese development? So is it really that SE is a bad company or have they simply gotten caught up in the Western trend of development like everyone else.
As far as TSW, I have always felt, and still do, that the movie was too pandering to Western audience. It wreaked of Japanese company making content for Western consumption, not Japanese company making content for consumption. Anime tropes and dude-bros don't mix well. That being said, I think it would have failed anyway because it was too silly for adults, but too self-important for children. I think Square would have been better off making 3D Studio Ghibli ripoff films.
zerokoolpsx
Member
Wow, that OP has so much info. Its really sad to see SE milk FF the way they did and let talented people go. Would have love a wealth of different IP's from them. I haven't been excited about any mainline FF title since FF X. The brand got stale.
They can go mobile all they want. SE and FF is dead to me.
They can go mobile all they want. SE and FF is dead to me.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Wait, so people often complained that SE focuses too much on mobile platforms and call the company dead, and now you actually WANT them to go mobile.
Make up your mind please?
I would rather take another JRPG with a Final Fantasy moniker than random dudebro FPS #69.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
Maybe those aren't the same people.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
I know. It was a rhetorical question.
Damn, Uematsu is greater than what I assumed of him. His views on products not only highlights an issue with Square-Enix, but an issue that literally plagues many games from other companies.
It blows my mind to see a would-be professional wrestler turned self-taught musical composer to be so damn wise. Gets me every time I hear something from him.
It blows my mind to see a would-be professional wrestler turned self-taught musical composer to be so damn wise. Gets me every time I hear something from him.
And they made him retire because Wada got a fortune teller to relocate to another place.
Seriously for this alone Wada is the devil.
Angelcurio
Member
Excellent thread, it really brings to light the real problems of SE. I have always believed with the notion that the Spirit Within movie was the real cause of the SS merger with Enix, when the reality wasn’t so black and white, so it’s really good to have a real representation of how things actually went.
I really enjoyed SS games, so to seem today just focused on FF and DQ is a real shame. Series like Chrono Trigger/Cross, Seiken Desetsu, etc, have long been forgotten in benefit of milking the FF and DQ cows. I really miss Sakaguchi’s games, and he has been quite low profile after Blue Dragon. I hope he returns to console development, even though i have never seen a game from him ever appearing on a Sony platform since he left SS.
Edit: Also wanted to say that FF IX is my favorite FF game after FF VI, i would really like to see a return to form with a FF RPG based on the same medieval fantasy that made FF IX so great.
I really enjoyed SS games, so to seem today just focused on FF and DQ is a real shame. Series like Chrono Trigger/Cross, Seiken Desetsu, etc, have long been forgotten in benefit of milking the FF and DQ cows. I really miss Sakaguchi’s games, and he has been quite low profile after Blue Dragon. I hope he returns to console development, even though i have never seen a game from him ever appearing on a Sony platform since he left SS.
Edit: Also wanted to say that FF IX is my favorite FF game after FF VI, i would really like to see a return to form with a FF RPG based on the same medieval fantasy that made FF IX so great.
They killed Seiken Densetsu for good I think.
They fired Ishii after the whole World of Mana debacle.
Then again they never managed to make Seiken Densetsu make the move to 3D like everything else (and Legend of Mana really didn't help either)
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Sword of Mana
Children of Mana
Dawn of Mana
Heroes of Mana
Gave plenty of chances for Mana to make a comeback, but it just didn't work.
Sword of Mana is the only one worth getting and that's also the only one not part of World of Mana mega project too..
They missed the mark so bad on Seiken 4 (Dawn) that it's not a wonder they axed everything after that...
And even that may be laid at the feet of Wada because really that was a godawful idea from the start.
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