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[Loxley]

Oh hey, if you guys want an awesome resource to help keep track of exactly where each member of the Fellowship is at any point throughout the reading and what they're doing, use the interactive map at LOTRproject.com.

You can pick and choose specific characters and it'll give you a pretty detailed mapping of the path they take throughout the events of the book. Just click on the "paths" tab on the right side of the map. But it also has a bunch of other neat features to play around with.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

The omission of Fredegar Bolger and lack of Farmer Maggot in the films saddens me somewhat.

 

[bengraven]

The Brandywine river is to the east of Hobbiton, which is where they're going.

Here's a map detailing the journey as it's been traveled so far:



It's a quick snap shot from Fanstad's Atlas of Middle-Earth, which is an awesome companion piece for times like this.

Atlas is one of those definitive things I really need to pick up eventually.

 

[bengraven]

The omission of Fredegar Bolger and lack of Farmer Maggot in the films saddens me somewhat.

I love me some Fatty!

We've talked about how much I love the whole Old Forest/Barrows section in the Tolkien threads, but The "last" scene with him with the wraiths attacking "Underhill's" new home is still one of my favorites.

 

[Erevador]

The omission of Fredegar Bolger and lack of Farmer Maggot in the films saddens me somewhat.

This was him, right? So he was sort of in there...

 

[Archaeopteryx]

This was him, right? So he was sort of in there...

He's seen briefly and his name is mentioned, but his role is very very minor compared to the novel. I bet if you asked someone who's only seen the films who he is they wouldn't have a clue.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

This was him, right? So he was sort of in there...

Yes, that would be him. His role in the novel and the manner of Merry's introduction was one of the better parts of that chapter.

 

[SiegfriedFM]

Khamûl was mentioned before. Is there any official name source for the other nazgûl or did ICE pull them out of the air when creating their RPG world? Ar-Pharazon, Adunaphel, etc.

As for the time skip, I feel it's another of those compression things. We see Gandalf riding off and there's a montage of sorts, and then he's back. Hobbits age slowly - Elijah would have played a Frodo slightly more childish than himself before, and one a bit more mature after, but it's not like we would have needed a whole new actor for the 17 year difference. It's like how The Hobbit journey could reasonably have taken the same time as in the book, they just skipped ahead without mentioning time passing.

Or Jackson had no clue at all.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Khamûl was mentioned before. Is there any official name source for the other nazgûl or did ICE pull them out of the air when creating their RPG world? Ar-Pharazon, Adunaphel, etc.

As for the time skip, I feel it's another of those compression things. We see Gandalf riding off and there's a montage of sorts, and then he's back. Hobbits age slowly - Elijah would have played a Frodo slightly more childish than himself before, and one a bit more mature after, but it's not like we would have needed a whole new actor for the 17 year difference. It's like how The Hobbit journey could reasonably have taken the same time as in the book, they just skipped ahead without mentioning time passing.

Or Jackson had no clue at all.

Only Khamul was ever named by Tolkien, the Witch-king being more of a title than a name. All else is in the realm of fan fiction.

If The Lord of the Rings had been adapted 20 or so years earlier, then Ian Holm would have been close to perfect for the role. More so than Elijah Wood.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Another character omitted from the film adaptation is Gildor Inglorion and the sequence involving the two parties meeting and conversing. Frodo exhibits his knowledge of Elvish language and is also named Elf-friend; an 'Ælfwine'. Elrond later in the novel also proclaims him as such;

"And though all the mighty elf-friends of old, Hador, and Húrin, and Túrin, and Beren himself were assembled together, your seat should be among them."

Certainly in good company and it is a concept developed by Tolkien in the earlier abandoned narrative, long before The Lord of the Rings entered Tolkien's thoughts.

To be fair to Peter and co, the extended edition of Fellowship contained a nod to the aforementioned sequence and is actually quite well done. It captures the melancholy of the Elves departing Middle-earth forever.

 

[DuffDry]

Yes, that would be him. His role in the novel and the manner of Merry's introduction was one of the better parts of that chapter.

A cool depiction of Maggot. There's tons of great Tolkien art out there, each era sporting it's own uniqueness:

 

[Liljagare]

Sorry, but Tolkiens books suckssssssss as far as modern reading books.

I would suggest that you, if you want to read some good fantasy books, read Stephen Donaldsons, white gold wielder.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

A cool depiction of Maggot. There's tons of great Tolkien art out there, each era sporting it's own uniqueness:

That would make a very lovely Christmas card. Very homely indeed.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Sorry, but Tolkiens books suckssssssss as far as modern reading books.

I would suggest that you, if you want to read some good fantasy books, read Stephen Donaldsons, white gold wielder.

Interesting, but not wholly appropriate for this thread.

 

[Weetrick]

Alright I'm in. I haven't read these books since high school, right before the films came out. I've been meaning to re-read them for a while now. It will be interesting to read them post-film universe. I'll bring my copy on the train to work tomorrow!

 

[Rhomega Beta]

Something else I wanted to mention: it's been seventeen years between when Bilbo disappeared and when Gandalf came back and told Frodo about the ring. The movie doesn't really show this. As far as I can tell, Gandalf was gone for like a week or so. The Ralph Bakshi version does show years passing, but to my recollection, doesn't say how many. 17 years is a long time. If Bilbo left today, we'd have to wait until 2032 to get the plot moving again.

 

[Loxley]

Sorry, but Tolkiens books suckssssssss as far as modern reading books.

I would suggest that you, if you want to read some good fantasy books, read Stephen Donaldsons, white gold wielder.

Uh, thanks for the input?

Something else I wanted to mention: it's been seventeen years between when Bilbo disappeared and when Gandalf came back and told Frodo about the ring. The movie doesn't really show this. As far as I can tell, Gandalf was gone for like a week or so. The Ralph Bakshi version does show years passing, but to my recollection, doesn't say how many. 17 years is a long time. If Bilbo left today, we'd have to wait until 2032 to get the plot moving again.

Yeah, Jackson condensed that particular bit of the timeline down, I'm not too bothered by it. Of all the omissions/changes from the book, I think removing that 17 year-gap is one of the changes that doesn't make that much of a difference in the overall narrative.

 

[Gabriel_Logan]

Uh, thanks for the input?



Yeah, Jackson condensed that particular bit of the timeline down, I'm not too bothered by it. Of all the omissions/changes from the book, I think removing that 17 year-gap is one of the changes that doesn't make that much of a difference in the overall narrative.

They also had to sex up the movie, can't have a 50 year old Frodo Baggins going on a quest. Dantes linked to a guy in the Hobbit thread who talked about this in a speech he made.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Sorry, but Tolkiens books suckssssssss as far as modern reading books.

I would suggest that you, if you want to read some good fantasy books, read Stephen Donaldsons, white gold wielder.

This is such an entirely bizarre post. First of all, it's not appropriate to the thread. Second, you're suggesting people read the third book of the second of Donaldson's trilogies. What?

On topic: It's really nice returning to these books. I haven't actually read them since I was like eleven or twelve, so it's a helluva a thing to be reading through older eyes.

 

[Garryk]

Just finished Chapter 1 last night. Seems like the movie was very faithful to the first chapter. Is there any backstory on why a Hobbit doesn't come of age until 33? Is it simply because life expectancies are much longer in Middle-Earth?

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Just finished Chapter 1 last night. Seems like the movie was very faithful to the first chapter. Is there any backstory on why a Hobbit doesn't come of age until 33? Is it simply because life expectancies are much longer in Middle-Earth?

The latter mostly. Although as with many things in Middle-earth life, diminishment plays a part.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Art has been missing thus far. Time to rectify this:

The meeting with the Elves.

Note the similarities in appearance of the hobbits in this painting and the films.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

Sorry, but Tolkiens books suckssssssss as far as modern reading books.

I would suggest that you, if you want to read some good fantasy books, read Stephen Donaldsons, white gold wielder.

Great insight and contribution. Next.

Anyway, to go along with what others have said about trimming the time from book to film, I do think the 17-year gap played little to no part in the overall narrative. I mean, the ring is hidden and Sauron doesn't command his forces until right before Frodo departs. If that hadn't occurred, it's interesting to wonder what Frodo's children might have done with it.

Are we ever given a specific reason as to why the search for the ring peaked 17 years after Bilbo departs? Was it simply because it took 17 years to capture and torture Smeagol for information that was then the onus for the search? I think I'm answering my own question.

 

[Megalosaro]

When you guys picture the shire, what do you guys envision?

I picture a more rural Victorian era england. Pippin and Merry very much feel like they could pop out of a Jane Eyre-type novel in a lot of ways. Middle class English people from before the turn of the last century.

I think that is where the novel differs from the movies with regards to hobbits. Movie hobbits are Bumpkins. The Shire of the novels very much has a regid society. Perhaps not as stratified as Victorian era england but very much civilized and structured in its customs and culture.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Great insight and contribution. Next.

Anyway, to go along with what others have said about trimming the time from book to film, I do think the 17-year gap played little to no part in the overall narrative. I mean, the ring is hidden and Sauron doesn't command his forces until right before Frodo departs. If that hadn't occurred, it's interesting to wonder what Frodo's children might have done with it.

Are we ever given a specific reason as to why the search for the ring peaked 17 years after Bilbo departs? Was it simply because it took 17 years to capture and torture Smeagol for information that was then the onus for the search? I think I'm answering my own question.

The delay was down to information gathering mostly. But it should be noted that the Ring and much of its surrounding history had passed into legend. Even the rumours of the Dark Lord were known only to the wise. Much of the 'human' population of Middle-earth had grown up in the shadow of rumours, rather than an immediate threat. The hobbits especially dismissed such legends as big peoples' nonsense.

When you guys picture the shire, what do you guys envision?

I picture a more rural Victorian era england. Pippin and Merry very much feel like they could pop out of a Jane Eyre-type novel in a lot of ways. Middle class English people from before the turn of the last century.

I think that is where the novel differs from the movies with regards to hobbits. Movie hobbits are Bumpkins. The Shire of the novels very much has a regid society. Perhaps not as stratified as Victorian era england but very much civilized and structured in its customs and culture.

I just tend to picture the more rural areas in middle England that I've visited or closer to home, the villages found in the Southdowns; minus a few hundred years.

 

[Vashetti]

Started last night after several delays. Really, really hard to get back into, though this is the first book I've opened for 1.5 years +.

Interesting that they excised Frodo's birthday occurring on the same day in the movie, heck I think any mention to Frodo's age was excised. I suppose they were cautious of having a 33-50 year old protagonist.

Tolkien really hammered on about how the rest of Hobbiton was really paranoid about Bilbo, untrustworthy and keeping himself to himself.

Gandalf is very understated too, so far we have no idea of his true 'potential' or background.

Only a few pages in so far, enjoying it though.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Started last night after several delays. Really, really hard to get back into, though this is the first book I've opened for 1.5 years +.

Interesting that they excised Frodo's birthday occurring on the same day in the movie, heck I think any mention to Frodo's age was excised. I suppose they were cautious of having a 33-50 year old protagonist.

Tolkien really hammered on about how the rest of Hobbiton was really paranoid about Bilbo, untrustworthy and keeping himself to himself.

Gandalf is very understated too, so far we have no idea of his true 'potential' or background.

Only a few pages in so far, enjoying it though.

Yes, Gandalf at this stage was still just the 'little old man' of The Hobbit, rather than the being of angelic origin. People reading the Fellowship of the Ring for the first time in the fifties were in for a rather big surprise in the proceeding years. His 'death' in particular was very significant, considering the staggered publication of the three books. Unlike today, it was almost impossible to spoil one self, unless you came across someone else who had already read The Two Towers. One can imagine the feeling of elation on the White's return to the narrative.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

Yes, Gandalf at this stage was still just the 'little old man' of The Hobbit, rather than the being of angelic origin. People reading the Fellowship of the Ring for the first time in the fifties were in for a rather big surprise in the proceeding years. His 'death' in particular was very significant, considering the staggered publication of the three books. Unlike today, it was almost impossible to spoil one self, unless you came across someone else who had already read The Two Towers. One can imagine the feeling of elation on the White's return to the narrative.

I didn't start reading the trilogy until after watching FotR about 10 times. I can remember tearing up when Gandalf falls, thinking that was it for his character. I spoiled myself by reading the trilogy before The Two Towers was released just to satiate my own sadness.

As far as the books are concerned, it's always fun to know something is about to go down when Tolkien describes Gandalf as standing to his full height before he does something powerful. Really subtle stuff in my opinion.

 

[AbsentMindedProf]

Yes, Gandalf at this stage was still just the 'little old man' of The Hobbit, rather than the being of angelic origin. People reading the Fellowship of the Ring for the first time in the fifties were in for a rather big surprise in the proceeding years. His 'death' in particular was very significant, considering the staggered publication of the three books. Unlike today, it was almost impossible to spoil one self, unless you came across someone else who had already read The Two Towers. One can imagine the feeling of elation on the White's return to the narrative.

I first read the books in the early 90s when I was 12. Everything in them was unspoiled, and the death and return of Gandalf were two of the most memorable literary moments from my youth. I think spoilers are still not much of an issue in literature. It's much easier to avoid conversations about a book your planning on reading as compared to trying to avoid them for a tv show or movie. Especially one that has been out for a few years.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Nob and Bob.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Week two for anyone still reading

A Short Cut to Mushrooms
A Conspiracy Unmasked
The Old Forest

 

[Delicious Waffles]

I'm still here!

First two chapters of the week down already.

 

[Garryk]

I'm a little behind, currently in Chapter 3. I did have some questions while reading Chapter 2. Since Sauron's ring controlled all of the other rings, how were the elves able to resist? I know that the Nine succumbed to the call of the One Ring, but it also make mention of the seven Dwarven rings. I think it said that three were recovered, but what happened to the other four? Were the dwarven ring-bearers servants of Sauron like the Nine?

 

[Loxley]

Week two for anyone still reading

A Short Cut to Mushrooms
A Conspiracy Unmasked
The Old Forest

Still here bro

I'm going to be at a convention running a booth all of this week (which I spent all of last week hectically prepping for), so I'll try to post if and when I get a chance. Once this week is over and my schedule returns to normal I'll be able to contribute more regularly.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

I'm a little behind, currently in Chapter 3. I did have some questions while reading Chapter 2. Since Sauron's ring controlled all of the other rings, how were the elves able to resist? I know that the Nine succumbed to the call of the One Ring, but it also make mention of the seven Dwarven rings. I think it said that three were recovered, but what happened to the other four? Were the dwarven ring-bearers servants of Sauron like the Nine?

The remaining rings of the Dwarves were lost to dragons and beyond even Sauron's reach. As for the nine Rings of Power given to men. Their lust for power meant that they were easy to influence by the rings and eventually to control utterly. They all gave in, whereas the Elves rejected the wearing of their three Rings of Power as they sensed Sauron's intentions as soon as he created the One and placed it on his finger.

The Dwarves who had possession of rings were not under Sauron's control, but their inherent greed was amplified.

To quote:

"The dwarves it is said had seven, but nothing could make them invisible."

"The Dwarves indeed proved hard to tame, nor can they be turned to shadows."

And from Tolkien via his letters:

"The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance - this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron... such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible."From Letter 131.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

To add to the above, regarding the Dwarves:

"The Dwarves had proved untameable by this means. The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it."

From the appendices to the Return of the King; Durin's Folk.

 

[tryagainlater]

Alright, exams are done so I can dive into some Tolkien now. I've read the first 3 chapters just in time to see that I missed that discussion and already have to start on the next 3. I'll add some thoughts on the opening chapters anyway.

Speaking of the Shadow of the Past; one of the more subtle changes in the film involved the time at which the information was relayed to Frodo. In the book, during the daylight hours and in the film during the night. Some may prefer the manner in which the film depicted that sequence, others in which Tolkien portrayed that sequence.

I did make note of this when I was reading. This could be just my memories of the movie taking over since I experienced the story in that medium first but the scene becomes night in my head as Gandalf talks more and more about the ring. It's a dark scene despite the daytime setting. As Gandalf says though, discussion of such matters should be relegated to daytime. It reminds me of when I was a kid and I loved hearing scary stories but would only listen to them during the day as they were too scary at night.

Also, one observation I made about Bilbo discussing the Ring:

"And yet it would be a relief in a way not to be bothered with it anymore. It has been so growing on my mind lately. Sometimes I have felt it was like an eye looking at me. And I am always wanting to put it on and disappear, don't you know; or wondering if it is safe, and pulling it out to make sure. I tried locking it up, but I found I couldn't rest without it in my pocket".

Tolkien predicted the modern attitude to mobile phones. How ahead of his time he was.

Seriously though, I really enjoy these early chapters. There just so warm even if A Long-Expected Party can be a bit dry. I still have a very vivid picture of the Barrow Downs in my head so I'm looking forward to getting there. It's been a while since I've read The Silmarillion except for the first few chapters last year when we tried a read along here, but I haven't read The Lord of the Rings since. I'm looking forward to seeing the traces of the Valar and the First Age now that I know the history and lore. I was already pretty excited to see Varda referenced by the Elves in Three is Company which naturally went over my head the last times I read these books. Can't wait for more of that.

Onwards to the next three chapters then.

 

[Jacob]

This was him, right? So he was sort of in there...

The actor who played that role is officially credited as Farmer Maggot, but he's not the same guy who played the (mostly unseen) figure in the fields who the film characters actually refer to as Farmer Maggot. Though his interaction with the Nazgul and the presence of the dog is reminiscent of Maggot from the book.

 

[kess]

Having seen the movies before reading the books, the Lost Forest was a great surprise, and the entire flight of the party to Bree is one of my favorite parts of the book, among many other highlights which I'll probably pop in to write about when the time comes. I'm a little behind in this discussion, but I enjoy Tolkien's writing style in the early chapters of the book, wry and with a dry sense of humor, knowing very much about what he is writing about, if you get my drift. Most of the locations in the Fellowship of the Ring feel like places Tolkien often inhabited in his mind, much like remembrances of places visited in one's youth.

Gandalf is very terse in The Shadow of the Past and his gentle admonishments to Frodo's assumptions reminds me a little of the phrase "...for they are subtle and quick to anger...", although it is a useful reminder to how much Frodo grows in wisdom as the book continues, indeed, we begin to see more of how unique and special Frodo is in his encounter with Gildor.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

Having seen the movies before reading the books, the Lost Forest was a great surprise, and the entire flight of the party to Bree is one of my favorite parts of the book, among many other highlights which I'll probably pop in to write about when the time comes. I'm a little behind in this discussion, but I enjoy Tolkien's writing style in the early chapters of the book, wry and with a dry sense of humor, knowing very much about what he is writing about, if you get my drift. Most of the locations in the Fellowship of the Ring feel like places Tolkien often inhabited in his mind, much like remembrances of places visited in one's youth.

Gandalf is very terse in The Shadow of the Past and his gentle admonishments to Frodo's assumptions reminds me a little of the phrase "...for they are subtle and quick to anger...", although it is a useful reminder to how much Frodo grows in wisdom as the book continues, indeed, we begin to see more of how unique and special Frodo is in his encounter with Gildor.

Frodo's greatest strength seems to be his introspection. Whereas the other hobbits display certain characteristics (Samwise, for instance, is self-sacrificing to the max), Frodo quickly learns the severity of his task and its effects on him throughout the journey. This becomes really sad as the books continue and Frodo becomes more and more cognizant of the Ring's influence and his declining ability to resist it.

Also, I'm still here too! I honestly can't put it aside and wait for the thread to catch up. I'm in Lothlorien now and trying to read ever so slowly. I'm so glad I came back to these books as a young adult. I glean so much more now than I did when I was in middle school.

 

[Rhomega Beta]

I'm still in. Will read this afternoon.

 

[Garryk]

Finished the 4th chapter last night and I must say that Farmer Maggot seemed like much too admirable of a fellow to be left out of the film. I wonder if Jackson's reasoning was not wanting to separate Merry and Pippen. They both are portrayed as miscreants early in the movie stealing fireworks and vegetables. The book makes Merry seem somewhat responsible by coming out in the dark and foggy night to look for Frodo.

Perhaps the answer is simply that hopping on a ferry with a pack of ring wraiths in pursuit made for better cinema.

 

[ScottSullivan]

Yea Farmer Maggot really gave the hobbits a brief respite to the ever increasing danger. It was really building up how fearful and hungry they were, and then in the movie they just change him into a pitchfork wielding grump that just wants to catch those mischievous hobbits that are stealin his darned crops!

#FreeMaggot

 

[kess]

The journey would have been over before it began if if either the Gaffer or Farmer Maggot could not have withstood the Black Rider, although sadly Maggot seems to be lost even to the genealogies (if that was his actual name).

The movie kind of understates and miscasts Merry a bit, too. His appearance at the end of the "short cut" is significant, and although as a guide he unwittingly brought them to the wrong part of the Forest he is much more in his reckoning than the three other hobbits at this stage in the journey.

 

[F!ReW!Re]

Hi guys, been lurking so far and won't be able to join on the read along atm (on the road, traveling around Asia). But will definitely follow this thread and sometimes drop a (stupid*) question or two.

I actually can't remember what the last time was when I read the Fellowship (or the other 2 books for that matter) although it must've been more than 15 years ago (I'm 30 now).
I did promise myself that I would revisit all of the books this year so I might join in on a later point or when you guys decide to do the Two Towers/Return of the King for example.

Just wanted to add in on the point about spoilers and the likes you were discussing earlier.
What I always found suprising/weird regarding the movies was that they spoiled Gandalf's return/resurrection in the Two Towers' trailers.
I had already read the book before hand but I had friends who didn't and who were genuinely surprised by that trailer tidbit.

I can't remember if Gandalf's return was as a major a surprise/shock for me as say something as Darth Vader telling Luke he's his father but I can imagine for book readers (back in the days) it must've been huge.

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

I'm pretty sure most of the complaints about Tolkien's writing come from people that get to The Old Forest and give up. It is, like the forest itself, really dense. Not a lot of character moments, lots of exposition. I can see how it can turn people off. Don't quit here folks, this is the low point.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

The pace of the narrative does indeed pick up after they meet Tom and encounter the Barrow-wights. Although that pace does slacken again at Bree when they encounter Strider and have to deal with, what can only be described as, Barliman's incompetence.

 

[Any Questions]

The omission of Fredegar Bolger and lack of Farmer Maggot in the films saddens me somewhat.

Love this statement. Can live without Fredegar but farmer maggot was a bit of a hero.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Speaking of Strider, John Howe's depictions of the character are quite well done:

 

[AbsentMindedProf]

I forgot how much these first few chapters added to the character depth of the hobbits. They know they're getting into something much bigger than themselves, but they're unwilling to let their friend take on any dangers alone. It really strengthens the loyalty that these characters have for each other, and gives insight into some of their later actions. Merry and Pippen seem almost wiser and more worldly than Frodo at this point.