Ganon Dragmire
Member
I'll try it when I get there again. Thanks.
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Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII |OT| Toriyama's Bizarre Adventure
- Thread starter Kagari
- Start date
I'll try it when I get there again. Thanks.
SoraanTribal
Member
I did.. at least at first. I eventually got the timing down for all of their attacks, and they were less of a problem, but for some reason, I couldn't ever stagger them easily. So I just ended up spamming Artemis Arrows to end the fights quickly (even the Omega version).
----
Regarding the ending discussion:
I actually didn't mind most of the ending (as it was typical JRPG-fare), but I just hated the post-credits scene. I just didn't like the direction it went there, and even if they kept that aspect to the story, they could have at least
showed more characters than Lightning. I don't care about their bullshit reason of "the series started with Lightning (it didn't actually, Sazh was there too in the XIII intro), it should end with Lightning." Should have at least shown Serah and Snow's wedding which XIII's ending referenced.
As someone who is a big fan of Kingdom Hearts, the
"my friends are my power!" stuff generally doesn't bother me. But for some reason, the execution in Lightning Returns was far more cringeworthy than how KH does it. Maybe because the XIII series takes things so seriously most of the time and these are mostly 20+ year olds saying these lines whereas Kingdom Hearts has a younger cast and Disney is involved. I dunno.
But like I said earlier, my biggest problem with the ending was the post-credits scene. I had a few minor quibbles with the pre-credits stuff not making much sense, though.
The whole Caius freeing that one Yeul from being a seeress. Er, how? Why didn't he free any of the others? How did he get that power? How did Snow and everyone else find Lightning in the outer space/god realm area? They came outta nowhere.
Ah so that's what you meant in the other thread. Regarding the ending,
Don't forget that Bhunivelze captured Snow, Fang, and Vanille before the final battle. When she freed Hope, she freed everyone else. She also is bonded to their souls via their Eradia joining with her so she was able to summon them to her when she was in dire need.
Regarding Yeul, this Yeul was the only one who found someone other than Caius to love. Therefore, she did not have the attachment to Caius that caused all the other Yeuls to be bound to him and resummoning him ala Sin. Caius was able to give her back to Noel and free at least one of his Yeuls from their fate.
As for the power Caius had, well....he was in the unseen realm surrounded by chaos which he was now a part of. He was now as powerful as they come but now bound to that world outside the physical one. I like to think of him and the Yeuls as the 'new' Lindzei and Etro.
I still do not get all the hate for the ending though. Toriyama already stated it's not Earth. It is just an interpretation how the new world looked from the perspective of how we as humans on Earth would see a world like ours but different. I liked it for its simplicity and finality.
Regarding Yeul, this Yeul was the only one who found someone other than Caius to love. Therefore, she did not have the attachment to Caius that caused all the other Yeuls to be bound to him and resummoning him ala Sin. Caius was able to give her back to Noel and free at least one of his Yeuls from their fate.
As for the power Caius had, well....he was in the unseen realm surrounded by chaos which he was now a part of. He was now as powerful as they come but now bound to that world outside the physical one. I like to think of him and the Yeuls as the 'new' Lindzei and Etro.
I still do not get all the hate for the ending though. Toriyama already stated it's not Earth. It is just an interpretation how the new world looked from the perspective of how we as humans on Earth would see a world like ours but different. I liked it for its simplicity and finality.
WesternHeretic
Member
Are those the same one as the one from the strategy guide? Shield looks exactly the same.
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
He said he didn't know. There is a very big difference between "I don't know" and "It's not Earth". And if he is adamant that it isn't Earth, then he and his team did a poor job conveying that as they showed a Solar System that looked suspiciously like Earth's (one that just happens to have a planet that looks Exactly like Saturn and Mars), had a planet that had very Earth like geography with a very Earth looking planet, showed a location that looked exactly like a French Villa complete with French words and names on buildings, and had Lightning heavily imply that the XIII trilogy was OUR, not just humanity's, but OUR creation story. How could they not expect people to say "this is Earth" when all along the art direction was strong enough that, for example, even areas based upon Earth (the Archelytte Steppe was based off of The Great Plains) still conveyed the fact that "You ain't in Kansas"? Either way, it was poorly conveyed
And that wasn't even my biggest problem. Yeah, it was poorly executed, but it was just the culmination of the hilariously overdone fanservice, poorly executed story, hasty writing, and half baked ideas. The story is so inconsistent throughout the game it's almost as if they put their first or second draft into production (though they still had enough time to change the original ending to
focus solely on Lightning to complete the revisionist history that it was always about Lightning. And even this wouldn't have been so bad (I was used to this by now after two games of this) if they hadn't have sacrificed an ending I actually would have been content with: Getting to see everyone happy together and finally free from their terrible and twisted fates. You know, the ending they promised at the end of XIII? The promise that, in order to set it up, they had to have a Deus Ex Machina, an explanation of "miracles", and the utter violation of all the previously established rules?
Earth, but not Earth even though all evidence present would have you believe it to be Earth
RpgN
Junior Member
Oh yeah, agreed about that.
At first those
Arcangelis
When the battle starts, use deprotect and keep defending. He needs to have deprotect, keep trying. You defend to charge ATB gauge and until he releases his first buff (preferably keep the shemata with the Artemis Arrow close to fully charged). You keep defending until that point because he's going to heal regardless, he regains HP that is a waste of time of your gauge. After his first buffs are released, you start spamming magic around 3 or 4 full combos. Then when he's about to release that special powerful move, you only need to spam for a short time until he's staggered quickly. Quick Stagger auto ability helps. 3 Artemis Arrows attacks should be enough.
Btw, where do you find the Chimera? I only fought him 2 times on fixed fights and he never showed up during those trials. He's the only monster I didn't cause to go extinct (still have the save, I could still do it).
Aw, why'd you edit.
RpgN
Junior Member
They spawn frequently near the end of the back-left trial (Salvation, iirc). You fight one near the end of that trial as a mini boss, and they spawn about 50% of the time in the mini boss room.
RpgN
Junior Member
That's the first room I went through. I'll be giving it a try, thank you!
If I had designed the final dungeon...
The final dungeon would have been the whole Cathedral itself. It would have been super-fortified to prevent Lightning from interrupting the ceremony. It would have been Ultimecia's Castle-esque: a labyrinth with lots of puzzles meant to stall Lightning as long as possible. In fact, I would add a hard time limit to the dungeon (as is the game's supposed theme) and make it so that, if you run out of time, Vanille performs the ceremony and you either get a bad ending or Game Over.
While clearing the various wings of the Cathedral, you would team up with Noel, Fang, Snow, Sazh, Lumina, and Mog--all of whom would fight alongside you (in the actual battles) during a slew of boss fights across the dungeon. Maybe, for dramatic effect, each of these characters would die one after the other ala End of Evangelion, each one sacrificing themselves to give you more time to get to Vanille.
So it would be a sprawling labyrinth of a dungeon, not a "let's copy paste these four hallways" dungeon.
As for the final battle with Bhunivelze... I would have it be way more interesting. First you would face off against Lindzei, and then you would face off against Pulse. Then Lindzei, Pulse, and Bhunivelze would all fight you at once. THEN Bhuni would absorb Lindzei and Pulse like he does in the game.
During the Bhunivelze fight, he would summon old fal'Cie to aid him. He'd summon Carbuncle to heal himself, and that would cause the battle arena to ripple and change into Palumpolum. He would call Phoenix to burn Lightning to death, and suddenly you'd be fighting amongst Cocoon's clouds. It would be like Chrono Trigger/Cross where the final battle shows all the places you've visited on your journey. He'd call all of the fal'Cie one by one, and the player would get to decide whether to kill the fal'Cie (adds) or just ignore them and kill Bhunivelze. Maybe, on Hard Mode, the fal'Cie would be completely immune to damage and you would be forced to contend with all their mechanics at once.
Nearing the final phases of the fight, Lightning would begin to inevitably lose. Bhunivelze is, after all, God. But then, instead of your comrades coming to help you during a CG cutscene, their souls would come to help you in the actual battle. Snow, Hope, Sazh, and all the others appear and fight alongside you. Then, even Pulse and Lindzei decide to abandon Bhunivelze. They rip away from Bhunivelze and also fight with you against him.
While clearing the various wings of the Cathedral, you would team up with Noel, Fang, Snow, Sazh, Lumina, and Mog--all of whom would fight alongside you (in the actual battles) during a slew of boss fights across the dungeon. Maybe, for dramatic effect, each of these characters would die one after the other ala End of Evangelion, each one sacrificing themselves to give you more time to get to Vanille.
So it would be a sprawling labyrinth of a dungeon, not a "let's copy paste these four hallways" dungeon.
As for the final battle with Bhunivelze... I would have it be way more interesting. First you would face off against Lindzei, and then you would face off against Pulse. Then Lindzei, Pulse, and Bhunivelze would all fight you at once. THEN Bhuni would absorb Lindzei and Pulse like he does in the game.
During the Bhunivelze fight, he would summon old fal'Cie to aid him. He'd summon Carbuncle to heal himself, and that would cause the battle arena to ripple and change into Palumpolum. He would call Phoenix to burn Lightning to death, and suddenly you'd be fighting amongst Cocoon's clouds. It would be like Chrono Trigger/Cross where the final battle shows all the places you've visited on your journey. He'd call all of the fal'Cie one by one, and the player would get to decide whether to kill the fal'Cie (adds) or just ignore them and kill Bhunivelze. Maybe, on Hard Mode, the fal'Cie would be completely immune to damage and you would be forced to contend with all their mechanics at once.
Nearing the final phases of the fight, Lightning would begin to inevitably lose. Bhunivelze is, after all, God. But then, instead of your comrades coming to help you during a CG cutscene, their souls would come to help you in the actual battle. Snow, Hope, Sazh, and all the others appear and fight alongside you. Then, even Pulse and Lindzei decide to abandon Bhunivelze. They rip away from Bhunivelze and also fight with you against him.
I can dream!
Either that or we use the same corridors from the desert level, remove the floor sand and repaint everything grey instead of orange. Then , we throw in the same 5 monsters we've been battling the whole game and we remove the time limit from the only section of the game where, story-wise, it would make sense to have a hard countdown to the end of the world.
Just as interesting would have been if...
Instead, the depthless characters we spent 90% of the game with just sort of stand there and do nothing as the world ends.
... the Order had taken Luxerion under martial law and fortified the whole city as their base. Snow would have been forced to rally the Yusnaan army and invade Luxerion to try to liberate it and break through to Vanille. The people of the Wildlands could help by air--in Sazh's airship and on flying chocoboback--and the Ruffian thieves could help Lightning sneak through the warzone into the Cathedral. The whole world would come together to try to help Lightning, like at the end of FF9 and FF10.
Instead, the depthless characters we spent 90% of the game with just sort of stand there and do nothing as the world ends.
Perfo
Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
It's obvious that – like many times in this series and RPGs in general – the last area was developed in hurry during the final stretch of development. Thus why the last dungeon appears so flat here, but also flat in XIII-2 and even XIII. It's unfortunate because prologue and ending are very important, though I guess developers know only a small % of players see through the ending parts of a game so they don't put as much efforts in it. It makes sense, but it also piss me off.
You really need to stop doing that Crimson. You gotta stand by your posts.
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
Put it back up. Didn't like how it turned out and didn't have time to edit it until now.
Ganon Dragmire
Member
They pop back in those areas. But do those even matter since you can't go back to that guy to finish the quest, or is it for a trophy?
SoraanTribal
Member
It lets you beat the quest on your next playthrough. No trophy related to it, but for people wanting to truly 100%/do everything, it's there. I mainly killed all the Last Ones (even the ones in the Final Dungeon) because I wanted their item drops.
Ganon Dragmire
Member
Oh really?so I don't need to kill last ones on the 2nd playthrough? What about the Ultimate Lair? Will they still show up there?
Persona RS
Member
Really wanted to buy the FFVII Could schema just for nostalgia sake, but 3.99 is too pricey.
SpaceBridge
Member
What does installing the game do? Cuz I installed it and the game still runs like crap. NPC's pop in, frame rate chugs, textures still look flat. Wild lands is the worse.
Persona RS
Member
The full install improves loading times.
SoraanTribal
Member
As soon as you start the next playthrough, you can go to the NPC that has the quest and complete it on the spot. Your Last One kills carry over into the new game, but all the enemies respawn + their last ones. It's kind of a unique quest. Not sure about the Ultimate Lair, but I think the Last Ones will show up there as long as you didn't extinct the species on that playthrough (prior to getting to the Ultimate Lair).
You have to finish the quest on the 2nd playthrough,because 3 last ones only appear on the final day and at that point you can't finish quests anymore.
Ganon Dragmire
Member
Hmm so I guess I have to finish the quest on the 3rd playthrough, cause I didn't drive those enemies to extinction the first time.
She says "Before you were born" They broke the fourth wall and are talking to the viewer.Suggesting this is indeed earth and lightning and her friends created it on a whim.
Its a garbage ending and embarrassing writing.
The visibility in some fights is just horrible. Having dramatic camera close-up (like when you are using Heavy Attack/Artemis Arrow and other attack and spells) is stupid in a game where you need to have a good visibility of what the enemies are doing in order to block/avoid attacks efficiently, not to mention that the default camera angle is just plain bad. The fighting gameplay is probably the most interesting of the trilogy, but I fail to understand how they could screw up the camera so badly.
I don't even want to finish my Hard-mode playthrough. The final boss (hardest form) also has some attacks that are just unavoidable and are OHKO. Great, just great design there.
I'm done. I really hope that FFXV will be a better game that the ones which preceded it (including FFXIV:ARR - it's a fine MMO, thanks to Yoshida, but I don't like where this game is going, and I'm done with this genre, it's too time-consuming).
I don't even want to finish my Hard-mode playthrough. The final boss (hardest form) also has some attacks that are just unavoidable and are OHKO. Great, just great design there.
I'm done. I really hope that FFXV will be a better game that the ones which preceded it (including FFXIV:ARR - it's a fine MMO, thanks to Yoshida, but I don't like where this game is going, and I'm done with this genre, it's too time-consuming).
It's not objectively embarrassing writing, I will argue that it depends on the way you interpret it.
I took it as a cool way to state that we don't need gods or any kind of supernatural being behind the scenes to give meaning/direction to our life, the fact that it's earth is inconsequential, it could have been any other world(I theorize they chose earth because it would be more relatable and palpable to the player), the plot twist still remains really cool in my eyes and I find it to be a really logic conclusion to the trilogy considering their overall plot themes, the end of all the mythos that hold back humanity from reaching it's potential(quite similar to previous FF ideas like FF X). Just my take on it.
Finished the game a few days ago. The ending was great, a very satisfying conclusion to the trilogy, the story has the typical JRPG "nonsense" that is still really likeable. What I mean by nonsense is the typical "Power of humanity and love", that type of discourse. It brings a smile to my face when well done(tho it was overly cheesy in LR, I still managed to take it at face value and I must say it was emotionally effective, it felt like the culmination of everything the trilogy set out to do, non-optimal execution aside). 90% of fantasy works end up having that type of the discourse when the big baddy is being fought. Even in western works like Harry Potter. Im surprised that XIII and XIII-2 didnt fall into that trap for the most part, I wouldnt have it any other way though, it's the logic followup. LR delivered a good conclusion to the trilogy.
Final Thoughts - Great music, some really good characterization behind some characters with strong motivations driving their actions. One of the most rewarding battle systems I played in a long time, That's Lightning Returns in a nutshell, a great JRPG. The dialogue behind the trilogy was always kind of weak(I guess that's what you would call "writing"?) but the actual plots are great, it has good world building with a generally self consistent and rich mythology and really good characters(flawed, human and believable).
RpgN
Junior Member
Let's say the new world is
earth.
And hilariously overdone fanservice? Are you just talking in regards to the ending? If not, then I disagree. This was supposed to be the last FFXIII game to conclude the story for all characters. I didn't feel the main quests were hilariously fanservice overdone. In fact, the main quests felt short. I would have liked seeing more of the main characters.
Poorly executed story, hasty writing and half baked ideas?
Why does it have to be so black and white? How am I supposed to respond to that? A lot was done well in regards to the execution of the story, the writing and ideas. Yes, there was poor execution, hasty writing and half baked ideas as well, but why are you brushing the whole game off this negatively when there was a lot to like as well?
I haven't seen many jrpg's that aren't flawed in some way but still liked for the things that were enjoyable. Forgive me for comparing again, but I'm trying to make my point across.
1. Tales games (pretty much most of them), have cliché writing and characters, they're not even that great. Yet the story and especially the characters are liked because of the personality of the characters thanks to skits and interaction mostly.
2. Kingdom Hearts games have nonsense story with anime characters. Yet the characters are liked along with their connection to other characters.
3. FFXII hardly shows much of the characters and their personality, the story focuses mostly on the political side of things on a larger scale, leaving many thinking the game doesn't have a good enough story. But the lore is great, the writing and voice acting is praised, their characters are still liked for their attitude and few spoken lines etc.
I can think of tons of examples (including Xenoblade and other fan favourites).
The point I'm trying to make? When fans acknowledge the story, characters and writing having flaws, they're still also appreciated for what they do right and they're not completely trashed, called 'garbage' like with LR, FFXIII-2 and FFXIII to a lesser extend. There are trash RPG's out there but LR and FFXIII-2 aren't worse than many of those loved games that aren't considered trash in that regard (FFXIII deserves more bashing but the other 2 improve on it).
LR?
Garbage ending/story, terrible characters, half baked ideas, disgusting voice acting, overdone hilarious fanservice, embarrassing writing and on and on!
LR has great lore, likable main characters, great designs for the main characters, convincing motives, backstories to many NPCs making the towns more personal, humour with certain NPCs, dialogue and characters, the characters being much better than FFXIII etc.
I know some of this is very subjective, I'm just saying it's not a universal fact that the characters can't be liked. Yes, the game can get too cheesy, the execution can be bad, the writing can be hasty and all of the negatives that have been mentioned. But it's not all bad.
Not trying to judge here as I haven't played the KH series yet but generally the argument that a story is nonsensical when it's convoluted or complex is complete BS imo.(Im not denying the possibility here but usually these half hearted write-offs of a complete narrative lack foresight and more than a simple superficial analysis imho).
Confusing or hard to understand doesn't equate to nonsensical. Some stories take more effort to understand because they are multi-layered and deliberately complex(their execution and delivery may also be poor). Case and point "convoluted" stories like MGS, Chrono Cross, 999..etc.
Just to give an example in regards to FF XIII, many people claim that the story is nonsensical for various reasons but the ones that show up the most frequently are:
"All the characters had to do was nothing!!!!"
WRONG - If they simply "did nothing", the plans of the villain would only be temporarily foiled, He would just choose new L'cie and continue the control of Cocoon ala Patriots from MGS, the characters were just trying to put an end to all of it obviously, hence why they obeyed the villain because that's what needed to be done in order to accomplish their objective..
"The ending is Deus Ex Machina!!!"
WRONG - I will argue against the "Deus ex Machina" argument for various reasons
For one I will only use the original FF XIII info so you dont come back with the retort "But that is explained after the fact it doesnt count", if you want to get into the sequels your argument only becomes that much more moot)
1- It was established beforehand both in In game dialogue and Datalog that the reason Cocoon wasnt destroyed during the first war of transgression was because the Goddess Etro pitied the humans that lived in Cocoon as "pets" of the Fal'cie, thus she stopped Ragnarok from killing them all. (Here she simply stopped Ragnarok and didnt break any of the rules in the universe)
2- It's also heavily explained in lore(see Analects) that the Goddess Etro is known to deeply care(not to mention that humans were made out of her own blood) for humans and many times reward acts of bravery and great courage and pity humans that were treated unfairly thus why she did what she did in the end of FF XIII. (By decrystallizing people and turning Cieth back to human form, she broke the rules of the universe thus created the paradox that led to the events of FF XIII-2)
If you still argue that it is "Deus Ex Machina", I will make the ridiculous argument that every fiction ever conceived is based upon Deus Ex Machina, simply for the fact that all stories have convenient aspects to them with highly unlikely chances of happening, how come it was the protagonist's specific sperm cell that fecundated the egg, it has a 1 in hundreds of million chance of that happening at best, it was so convenient that the act of conceiving that specific person happened at that time so he could be born and the story could happen the way it did, you can make loads of arguments like this, how come in The Last of Us there is always a garbage thing so that they can always climb when they specifically need to, isnt that super convenient?(I think not Im just being pedantic for the sake of proving a point)...
My point is, as long as something has a good foundation and background as I think the Goddess Etro has in FF XIII, it's fine to use in the plot because it wont feel like it came out of nowjhere and was pulled out of the ass. The reason Cocoon still even exists at the time of FF XIII is Goddess Etro herself, it's a central plot poiint with solid roots supporting it.
In this case I believe many people are simply missing the point, it doesn't help that the story is somewhat poorly told in FF XIII but I stand by the fact that the narrative is structurally sound.
Damn, sorry for going a little bit off topic there but I needed to take that off my chest.
Confusing or hard to understand doesn't equate to nonsensical. Some stories take more effort to understand because they are multi-layered and deliberately complex(their execution and delivery may also be poor). Case and point "convoluted" stories like MGS, Chrono Cross, 999..etc.
Just to give an example in regards to FF XIII, many people claim that the story is nonsensical for various reasons but the ones that show up the most frequently are:
"All the characters had to do was nothing!!!!"
WRONG - If they simply "did nothing", the plans of the villain would only be temporarily foiled, He would just choose new L'cie and continue the control of Cocoon ala Patriots from MGS, the characters were just trying to put an end to all of it obviously, hence why they obeyed the villain because that's what needed to be done in order to accomplish their objective..
"The ending is Deus Ex Machina!!!"
WRONG - I will argue against the "Deus ex Machina" argument for various reasons
For one I will only use the original FF XIII info so you dont come back with the retort "But that is explained after the fact it doesnt count", if you want to get into the sequels your argument only becomes that much more moot)1- It was established beforehand both in In game dialogue and Datalog that the reason Cocoon wasnt destroyed during the first war of transgression was because the Goddess Etro pitied the humans that lived in Cocoon as "pets" of the Fal'cie, thus she stopped Ragnarok from killing them all. (Here she simply stopped Ragnarok and didnt break any of the rules in the universe)
2- It's also heavily explained in lore(see Analects) that the Goddess Etro is known to deeply care(not to mention that humans were made out of her own blood) for humans and many times reward acts of bravery and great courage and pity humans that were treated unfairly thus why she did what she did in the end of FF XIII. (By decrystallizing people and turning Cieth back to human form, she broke the rules of the universe thus created the paradox that led to the events of FF XIII-2)
If you still argue that it is "Deus Ex Machina", I will make the ridiculous argument that every fiction ever conceived is based upon Deus Ex Machina, simply for the fact that all stories have convenient aspects to them with highly unlikely chances of happening, how come it was the protagonist's specific sperm cell that fecundated the egg, it has a 1 in hundreds of million chance of that happening at best, it was so convenient that the act of conceiving that specific person happened at that time so he could be born and the story could happen the way it did, you can make loads of arguments like this, how come in The Last of Us there is always a garbage thing so that they can always climb when they specifically need to, isnt that super convenient?(I think not Im just being pedantic for the sake of proving a point)...
My point is, as long as something has a good foundation and background as I think the Goddess Etro has in FF XIII, it's fine to use in the plot because it wont feel like it came out of nowjhere and was pulled out of the ass. The reason Cocoon still even exists at the time of FF XIII is Goddess Etro herself, it's a central plot poiint with solid roots supporting it.
In this case I believe many people are simply missing the point, it doesn't help that the story is somewhat poorly told in FF XIII but I stand by the fact that the narrative is structurally sound.
Damn, sorry for going a little bit off topic there but I needed to take that off my chest.
Or she is simply
saying this as an epithet to future generations. She is speaking to humanity itself in the new world, like a memory that is within the 'lifestream'. It is probably the same audience Vanille was speaking to during FFXIII in a way. It's all interpretation though. Our world however does not have chaos seeping in or Yeuls to guide us after we die.
edit: RpgN, you make valid points but FFXIII is just too easy of a target for some
Thickstone
Member
What I don't get is:
These games have cool art, cool soundtracks, create a nice atmosphere and are fun jRPGs gameplay-wise (except XIII maybe)
Why does every discussion about these games has to revolve around the story and writing?
I have a feeling that I'm the only one who felt totally indifferent to the story (apart from some highlights) and enjoyed the jRPG aspects of them. All in all I think these games do some interesting things for the genre. While I recognize that the writing is sub par, I simply didn't care that much about it.
FYI I expect more from the series than Toriyama and his team managed to deliver. However, what's done is done.
These games have cool art, cool soundtracks, create a nice atmosphere and are fun jRPGs gameplay-wise (except XIII maybe)
Why does every discussion about these games has to revolve around the story and writing?
I have a feeling that I'm the only one who felt totally indifferent to the story (apart from some highlights) and enjoyed the jRPG aspects of them. All in all I think these games do some interesting things for the genre. While I recognize that the writing is sub par, I simply didn't care that much about it.
FYI I expect more from the series than Toriyama and his team managed to deliver. However, what's done is done.
Last time it took him 500 years to find new people, and now 2 more pulse fal'cie are dead,which means it would probably take him even longer this time.
It's not like the heroes had any plan to stop him.If it wasn't for Erto coccon would have been destroyed.
So were planning to get saved by a god?Seems like a huge gamble to me."The ending is Deus Ex Machina!!!"
WRONG - I will argue against the "Deus ex Machina" argument for various reasons
1- It was established beforehand both in In game dialogue and Datalog that the reason Cocoon wasnt destroyed during the first war of transgression was because the Goddess Etro pitied the humans that lived in Cocoon as "pets" of the Fal'cie, thus she stopped Ragnarok from killing them all. (Here she simply stopped Ragnarok and didnt break any of the rules in the universe)
2- It's also heavily explained in lore(see Analects) that the Goddess Etro is known to deeply care(not to mention that humans were made out of her own blood) for humans and many times reward acts of bravery and great courage and pity humans that were treated unfairly thus why she did what she did in the end of FF XIII. (By decrystallizing people and turning Cieth back to human form, she broke the rules of the universe thus created the paradox that led to the events of FF XIII-2)
Doesn't matter anyway,because they talked about that this was their plan.
"Last time it took him 500 years to find new people, and now 2 more pulse fal'cie are dead,which means it would probably take him even longer this time.
It's not like the heroes had any plan to stop him.If it wasn't for Erto coccon would have been destroyed."
"So were planning to get saved by a god?Seems like a huge gamble to me.
Doesn't matter anyway,because they talked about that this was their plan."
The characters themselves are aware of that, they are self aware that their plan is a huge gamble and that it has a huge chance of failure, it's reflected very much so in their dialogue. They still couldnt sit idly by right? They had to do something about it, the life they were living was a lie(Falcies controlling Cocoon is not very different from the Matrix concept), besides if they did nothing it would also completely go against humanity's self preservation and survival instinct and it would ruin any chance of them saving their loved ones(risking the whole world vs their loved ones(they believed ending the Falcie would decrystallize their Sazh's son and Serah), sounds like another game that deserved insane amounts of praise....).
The fact that they KNOW that their actions can lead to Cocoons demise only adds another layer of gray morality to their motivations and psyche. They are somewhat selfish but at they same time they have extremely selfless intentions.
Also Thickstone you are absolutely correct, these games are much more than their narrative. They have extremely well designed battle systems, awesome music, art direction and for me they were tons of fun to play through. It seems like people are expecting these games to be 100% flawless, no game is, even your favourite FF for those who claim XIII ruined the series or whatever.
The XIII trilogy is far from being my favourite FF's but they are still much better than most JRPG's out there, bla bla subjectivity and all that jazz, that should be common sense by now.
It's not like the heroes had any plan to stop him.If it wasn't for Erto coccon would have been destroyed."
"So were planning to get saved by a god?Seems like a huge gamble to me.
Doesn't matter anyway,because they talked about that this was their plan."
The characters themselves are aware of that, they are self aware that their plan is a huge gamble and that it has a huge chance of failure, it's reflected very much so in their dialogue. They still couldnt sit idly by right? They had to do something about it, the life they were living was a lie(Falcies controlling Cocoon is not very different from the Matrix concept), besides if they did nothing it would also completely go against humanity's self preservation and survival instinct and it would ruin any chance of them saving their loved ones(risking the whole world vs their loved ones(they believed ending the Falcie would decrystallize their Sazh's son and Serah), sounds like another game that deserved insane amounts of praise....).
The fact that they KNOW that their actions can lead to Cocoons demise only adds another layer of gray morality to their motivations and psyche. They are somewhat selfish but at they same time they have extremely selfless intentions.
Also Thickstone you are absolutely correct, these games are much more than their narrative. They have extremely well designed battle systems, awesome music, art direction and for me they were tons of fun to play through. It seems like people are expecting these games to be 100% flawless, no game is, even your favourite FF for those who claim XIII ruined the series or whatever.
The XIII trilogy is far from being my favourite FF's but they are still much better than most JRPG's out there, bla bla subjectivity and all that jazz, that should be common sense by now.
HokieHavok
Member
Just finished Lightning Returns last night. I played on normal, without a strategy guide, and completed roughly 95% of the side-quests. It challenged me more than the last two games, especially in the early going, but I never felt cheated or frustrated.
First and foremost, the battle system was an absolute blast. It was easily the game's highpoint for me. Timed guarding in combination with garb swapping put a fresh spin on what I already took to be a fun formula. I do wish it were possible to map outfits to the d-pad for easier swapping, but that's a minor knock on a phenomenal system.
Garbs were a win for me, at least in concept, but my Lightning was a raging sartorial sin for large swaths of the game, and I wish that Square had a better means to deal with the visual disconnect between garbs and equipment, whether it be with modifiable equipment colors or a greater emphasis on garb-specific weapons.
What I couldn't get into was the damn story. It was a convoluted mess, wrought with silly contrivances, and way too heavy-handed with its thematic material. I dug the idea of an unaging population and thought that Nova Chrysalia was a fascinating idea on that front, but it's a fine line to walk, and, to my taste, it dipped down into the bizarre and became too absurd to take seriously. That and Lightning has always seemed like a dehumanized stoic to me, and I just couldn't get myself to care about her struggle.
All said, this one is a solid 7.5 for me. I think it could have been something truly choice with a bigger budget and better writing. I would have almost preferred Noel as the main character. If nothing else, I think Square may have a cult classic here.
First and foremost, the battle system was an absolute blast. It was easily the game's highpoint for me. Timed guarding in combination with garb swapping put a fresh spin on what I already took to be a fun formula. I do wish it were possible to map outfits to the d-pad for easier swapping, but that's a minor knock on a phenomenal system.
Garbs were a win for me, at least in concept, but my Lightning was a raging sartorial sin for large swaths of the game, and I wish that Square had a better means to deal with the visual disconnect between garbs and equipment, whether it be with modifiable equipment colors or a greater emphasis on garb-specific weapons.
What I couldn't get into was the damn story. It was a convoluted mess, wrought with silly contrivances, and way too heavy-handed with its thematic material. I dug the idea of an unaging population and thought that Nova Chrysalia was a fascinating idea on that front, but it's a fine line to walk, and, to my taste, it dipped down into the bizarre and became too absurd to take seriously. That and Lightning has always seemed like a dehumanized stoic to me, and I just couldn't get myself to care about her struggle.
All said, this one is a solid 7.5 for me. I think it could have been something truly choice with a bigger budget and better writing. I would have almost preferred Noel as the main character. If nothing else, I think Square may have a cult classic here.
It just adds another layer of stupidity.
The either fail and die,or they don't and still die,but eveyone else dies,too.
Inb4 divine intervention of course,but hoping something that unlikely is just dumb.
The thing is, they werent hoping for anything. They didn't discover that it was Etro until XIII-2. Im sure XIII is not the first game to pull of an unlikely success story in a narrative, in fact it's a common trope.
It's about these people fighting against impossible odds, facing adversity and finding hope in a world full of despair, kinda like EVERY FF EVER MADE!(giving a few examples to illustrate my point)
FF2 - A group of nobodies literally deciding to do something about the situation at hand, they end up defeating Emperor Mateus against impossible odds and the ending line of Mateus himself before dieing was "Who...are...you.." - Why, because these were nobodies who defeated his fabulous self
FF6 - Defeating the all powerful Kefka in a world of Ruin, with basically no odds of winning, facing adversity, dealing with incredible losses and unsurmountable power.
FF10 - Ending the eternal spiral of suffering.
People talk about XIII's story like it's some kind of monstruous atrocity when it's pretty much a collection of final fantasy staples and traditions with it's own unique flair and lore. Oh and also completely ignore what I said about what was behind their motivations so you can continue to call it stupid.
boredandlazy
Member
Not sure what game you're playing. The far away camera angle is fine.
In that case we are back to die or die and kill everyone else.
Your comparisons don't work here.
If they destroy the villain they lose,unlike in other rpg's where destroying the villain saves the world.
They had no plan and no idea what to do after killing orphan,yet they did it anyway.
Tsk..Tsk..
There is an answer to that, it's not directly in your face told but the game gives you enough hints to piece it together.
Let's think back to the War of Transgression when Fang and Vanille became Ragnarok for Pulse's Falcies in order to destroy Cocoon, they knew what they could do with Ragnarok, they knows it's potential, that's a key fact here.
Not only that but Fang and Vanille have also been turned into crystal before when they completed their original focus which was turning into Ragnarok.
When they go into the final boss, these two already have a plan up their sleeves, this is reflected in their attitude before killing Orphan himself, their dialogue shows confidence and a sense of purpose.
These are the 3 key pieces. Fang and Vanille knew what they could do, they knew they could turn into Ragnarok and crystallize after killing Orphan, they were ready to sacrifice themselves as a last resort before they even went and kill the damned thing.
You can say "But the other characters didnt know about this and they still decided to kill the bad guy anyway"
The retort to this is that they only wanted to kill Barthendelus, they haven't been told that Orphan was working with Barthendelus until the very end, after fighting Barthendelus and after he fuses with orphan(and this is when they learn for the first time that Orphan wants the same thing as Barthendelus(and this is something you completely ignored)) and that's when they fall into despair and turn into Cie'th because they realize their plan will result in mass genocide(they couldnt be certain of this at first because they werent planning to eliminate Orphan, only Barthendelus originally).(that's when Fang and Vanille come into action and after they turn back from Cieth they pretty much get in sync with Fang/Vanille's plan, they catch on to it through Vanille's own words while they were Cie'th).
It's not very straightforward but it's all there. It's called subtlety.
boredandlazy
Member
I think most people don't understand it, let alone GAF members.
They knew they can turn into a huge crystal pillar even though they never did anything like that?
Highly unlikely.This kind of stuff is Deus Ex Machina.
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
One last trophy till the plat, namely the 30 accessories upgrade trophy. Got 15/30 already.
Man I wish there was a faster way to get this trophy. :/
I'll post my review later when I get to the office.
Man I wish there was a faster way to get this trophy. :/
I'll post my review later when I get to the office.
SoraanTribal
Member
To me, the biggest issue with the XIII series storylines involve the writing and dialogue. They are poorly written with cringeworthy dialogue ("Become an arrow through time, and speed your way to Serah." is one of the worst offenses imo - no one talks like that). With a better scenario writer, those same basic stories would have been enjoyed by more people.
For me personally, I was entertained by most of the XIII series storyline, but it's just so damn poorly told.
Are you doing that trophy the easy way? ie: start the game over a 3rd time and getting the first 15 accessories again quickly? I did all those NG+ trophies within like 1.5 hours.
For me personally, I was entertained by most of the XIII series storyline, but it's just so damn poorly told.
Are you doing that trophy the easy way? ie: start the game over a 3rd time and getting the first 15 accessories again quickly? I did all those NG+ trophies within like 1.5 hours.
Think of it more of your bestiary carrying over, not last one kill status. Then the quest checks your bestiary completion, sorta like that trophy in XIII-2
SoraanTribal
Member
A deus ex machina is An artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.
I already refuted this argument, FF XIII's goddess wasnt pulled out of nowhere or suddenly, there were various indications of her existence before her acts and she is well defined within the narrative. Re-read my post where I go into detail why I believe her usage doesn't constitute a "Deus Ex Machina". If you feel otherwise, by all means destroy my arguments.
And I also dont know why people think convoluted is inherently negative. In my personal opinion, I find most straightforward stories to be boring and unchallenging. I like convoluted, I like putting the pieces of the plot together, it's a positive aspect for me. Whether convoluted is good or bad will be entirely dependant on taste.(the fact that there are so many fans of narratives like Xenogears/MGS/Chrono Cross/999/VLR and many others only strengthens my point)
Also Szadek : Ragnarok is a huge beast, of course the crystal will be huge, I don't see your point. Also don't forget that the power of their will and determination also has some impact on it, that's more symbolic thaN anything, most JRPG's stories are about enforcing the idea of "Human powers are limitless".
I already refuted this argument, FF XIII's goddess wasnt pulled out of nowhere or suddenly, there were various indications of her existence before her acts and she is well defined within the narrative. Re-read my post where I go into detail why I believe her usage doesn't constitute a "Deus Ex Machina". If you feel otherwise, by all means destroy my arguments.
And I also dont know why people think convoluted is inherently negative. In my personal opinion, I find most straightforward stories to be boring and unchallenging. I like convoluted, I like putting the pieces of the plot together, it's a positive aspect for me. Whether convoluted is good or bad will be entirely dependant on taste.(the fact that there are so many fans of narratives like Xenogears/MGS/Chrono Cross/999/VLR and many others only strengthens my point)
Also Szadek : Ragnarok is a huge beast, of course the crystal will be huge, I don't see your point. Also don't forget that the power of their will and determination also has some impact on it, that's more symbolic thaN anything, most JRPG's stories are about enforcing the idea of "Human powers are limitless".
Regarding the current discussion about spontaneous coincidences and deus ex machina, I have to admit I have to stifle chuckles irl every time I think of this one:
edit: And this one
edit: And this one
Which begs the question. Would someone technically have been able to punch crystallized Serah out of being a crystal through the power of love and friendship in the original XIII?