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[jph139]

Hey, I made it into an OP!

To further elucidate, my position is that - of the injustice in the United States - one guy's window being broken, or one guy's limo being trashed, barely registers. It doesn't even remotely compare to the very real, very present dangers of the Trump administration. It's an unfortunate reality when you have large, disorganized protests.

It's only one step beyond freeway-blocking my my eyes. "If your protests are causing Average Joe any hardship at all, they're immoral." Like, fuck that. Limo destruction is jaywalking next to what the protests were up against.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Which is proof that he was a victim being exploited who is now liberated from that exploitation.

What does this even mean? How was he being exploited and how is he now liberated by taking his livelihood away?

 

[Condom]

What gives you the right to demolish a Starbucks or Bank of America? Like I said earlier, how do you even know an establishment is corporate owned or a franchise? Cool, I've destroyed my local Starbucks to stick it to the man. Damn, it was actually run by a small business owner that now can't feed his family.

What gives Bank of America and their criminal staff to participate in systematic theft? And get away with it every time? May it be ignored or a shitty settlement were the actual criminals go free? I don't know but I do know that breaking some windows in response to that is certainly justified in any sense of the word.

There is also a giant chance that even in that worst scenario the franchise owner has insurance and enough of money stashed to bridge the period of restoration.

 

[ClosingADoor]

What gives Bank of America and their criminal staff to participate in systematic theft? And get away with it every time? May it be ignored or a shitty settlement were the actual criminals go free? I don't know but I do know that breaking some windows in response to that is certainly justified in any sense of the word.

There is also a giant chance that even in that worst scenario the franchise owner has insurance and enough of money stashed to bridge the period of restoration.

Cool, you have insurance on your house right? Mind if I burn it down? Because you have it better then about 95% of people in the world. How do you know if he has money? Maybe he barely can make ends meet and struggles because he doesn't want to fire people? You can't make blanket statements like that.

Nothing gives Bank of America that right. But you do not solve that by going around smashing windows. You solve it by getting involved and voting for the people who will make it better.

 

[Dalibor68]

Hey, I made it into an OP!

To further elucidate, my position is that - of the injustice in the United States - one guy's window being broken, or one guy's limo being trashed, barely registers. It doesn't even remotely compare to the very real, very present dangers of the Trump administration. It's an unfortunate reality when you have large, disorganized protests.

It's only one step beyond freeway-blocking my my eyes. "If your protests are causing Average Joe any hardship at all, they're immoral." Like, fuck that. Limo destruction is jaywalking next to what the protests were up against.

But that's the typical "There are bigger issues so as such this has to be ignored" fallacy that people use to defend shitty behavior, when guess what, in reality it doesn't justify that at all.

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Why don't you give me an example of a more progressive and happy country than the capitalist Scandinavian countries.

The Soviet Union?

Maoist China?

Castro's Cuba?

They achieve this happiness on they backs of exploited workers in other capitalist countries in Asia and South America.

Sip your latte and tell yourself how wonderful capitalism is. I doubt the guy who picked the beans feels the same.

Which established all sorts of values, roles and responsibilities based on the capital possessed.

You made this up and presented it as fact.

Bands have a loose organization. Their power structure is often egalitarian and has informal leadership; the older members of the band generally are looked to for guidance and advice, and decisions are often made on a consensus basis

 

[benjipwns]

Why don't you give me an example of a more progressive and happy country than the capitalist Scandinavian countries.

The Soviet Union?

Maoist China?

Castro's Cuba?

North Korea would be able to under the impeachable Juche ideology if the West stopped meddling and undermining it.

What does this even mean? How was he being exploited and how is he now liberated by taking his livelihood away?

He was being exploited by being forced to work to survive.

 

[7DollarHagane]

Yeah, before people start defending the protestors who did this and saying "it's for the cause" they should actually look at who's protesting and why first. Fuck anarchists.

And these angry mobs of protesters attract and enable these anarchists. They wouldn't be out doing this reprehensible bullshit otherwise.

They didn't turn up at the women's march events, because those were peaceful and purposeful.

 

[daviyoung]

Hence the need for a vanguard party.

A revolution takes more than that. Capitalism is incredible at enveloping, stabilising and harmonising dissonance.

 

[Condom]

Cool, you have insurance on your house right? Mind if I burn it down? Because you have it better then about 95% of people in the world.

Nothing gives Bank of America that right. But you do not solve that by going around smashing windows. You solve it by getting involved and voting for the people who will make it better.

No because I live every day wanting to give the 3rd world the economic justice they deserve. I have goodwill so to say, you can't claim that of Starbucks (tax evading) or Bank of America (it's a bank). It's also not as if I am a central actor in the oppression/poverty of the 3rd world.
It's a totally different situation more so because a house is either personal property or at least a personal living space. A facility of Bank of America is just a place of business and property of a corporation.

 

[Rentahamster]

Hey, I made it into an OP!

To further elucidate, my position is that - of the injustice in the United States - one guy's window being broken, or one guy's limo being trashed, barely registers. It doesn't even remotely compare to the very real, very present dangers of the Trump administration. It's an unfortunate reality when you have large, disorganized protests.

It's only one step beyond freeway-blocking my my eyes. "If your protests are causing Average Joe any hardship at all, they're immoral." Like, fuck that. Limo destruction is jaywalking next to what the protests were up against.

You're right about the stakes, the ideals at play, and the hard choices. However, are you willing to go up to that business owner and tell that to his face?

As a side note, I don't mean to single you out or anything by using your quote in the OP. That was just the most recent thing that I could remember and find easily that helped to frame my point.

 

[benjipwns]

You made this up and presented it as fact.

the older members of the band generally are looked to for guidance and advice

i.e. the ones with the most cultural capital

It's also not as if I am a central actor in the oppression/poverty of the 3rd world.

How are you not if you're a member of a Western nation?

It's a totally different situation more so because a house is either personal property or at least a personal living space. A facility of Bank of America is just a place of business and property of a corporation.

A house is just appropriated labor for your own personal gain.

 

[7DollarHagane]

What gives you the right to demolish a Starbucks or Bank of America? Like I said earlier, how do you even know an establishment is corporate owned or a franchise? Cool, I've destroyed my local Starbucks to stick it to the man. Damn, it was actually run by a small business owner that now can't feed his family.

Not to mention the people employed by that Starbucks now being out of work and losing income for their families, possibly losing their health insurance (which Starbucks generously provides even for part time workers). But no that doesn't matter because I'm mad about Donald Trump!!!

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

i.e. the ones with the most cultural capital

OK stretch arm strong. Decisions are still made by concensus meaning those with less cultural capital still have direct agency in their lives. Reducing people to possessions is not human nature.

 

[benjipwns]

Not to mention the people employed by that Starbucks now being out of work and losing income for their families, possibly losing their health insurance (which Starbucks generously provides even for part time workers).

Which helps to reduce global wealth inequality.

Reducing people to possessions is not human nature.

I didn't say it was. Capital isn't limited to the tangible.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

It sure as hell is when the person is still inside the fucking car.

Way too many people ignoring this, either selectively or otherwise.

 

[nicoga3000]

Not to mention the people employed by that Starbucks now being out of work and losing income for their families, possibly losing their health insurance (which Starbucks generously provides even for part time workers). But no that doesn't matter because I'm mad about Donald Trump!!!

I can't fathom why some people actually feel this way. I know you're being sarcastic, but there are a handful of people on GAF who DO feel like this, and that's disgusting.

 

[Condom]

How are you not?

A house is just appropriated labor for your own personal gain.

Because if I were there would be none/less but there still is. You thus can conclude that I want to but don't have the means to change the situation significantly. Conclusion: I'm not a central actor.

No a house is a basic need and is personal property. Different than a place of private profit by a corporate entity.

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Which helps to reduce global wealth inequality.


I didn't say it was. Capital isn't limited to the tangible.

Of course not but my point was that they weren't exploited by being reduced to their capital. Which people in capitalist societies are.

I'm pretty sure we're on the same side. I'm not An Com, just Com.

 

[7DollarHagane]

I can't fathom why some people actually feel this way. I know you're being sarcastic, but there are a handful of people on GAF who DO feel like this, and that's disgusting.

I'm not being sarcastic. Thinking about how your actions affect others and respecting other people's livelihoods is common sense and basic human decency. Starbucks may be "evil" but it's still where a single parent or person struggling to make ends meet might work and be getting tuition assistance to improve their life, and health insurance.

 

[Chittagong]

Not to mention the people employed by that Starbucks now being out of work and losing income for their families, possibly losing their health insurance (which Starbucks generously provides even for part time workers). But no that doesn't matter because I'm mad about Donald Trump!!!

It's ultimately for the greater good because... militant... reform.. establishment... state imposed rules... something something

joking, it's just nice to smash stuff, you should try it next time G7 rolls around

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Not to mention the people employed by that Starbucks now being out of work and losing income for their families, possibly losing their health insurance (which Starbucks generously provides even for part time workers). But no that doesn't matter because I'm mad about Donald Trump!!!

Oh wow. You serious with this? Starbucks wouldn't exist without its labor. It gives its labor the means to remain healthy for continued exploitation and you call this generous?

How have we fallen this far into late stage capitalism?

 

[Rentahamster]

OK stretch arm strong. Decisions are still made by concensus meaning those with less cultural capital still have direct agency in their lives. Reducing people to possessions is not human nature.

Um, just to jump in here real quick, I'm pretty sure you guys are on the same side of this issue. You're getting caught up in technicalities.

 

[nicoga3000]

I'm not being sarcastic. Thinking about how your actions affect others and respecting other people's livelihoods is common sense and basic human decency. Starbucks may be "evil" but it's still where a single parent or person struggling to make ends meet might work and be getting tuition assistance to improve their life, and health insurance.

No, I meant that I suspected your post was pointing out the issue and not supporting the practice of destroying property because of Trump.

You're 100% right - it's fucking disgusting that people are trying to say that destruction of ANY property is OK "because Donald Trump was elected president!!!"

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Um, just to jump in here real quick, I'm pretty sure you guys are on the same side of this issue. You're getting caught up in technicalities.

Yeah I realized that too. Comrades still bicker I suppose.

 

[HarryHengst]

Never destroy property. If you want to burn a car burn your own car.

If people in the past thought this you were still working in a factory for 14 hours a day, 7 days a week. Any workers rights you got were earned with the literal blood and broken bones of your predecessors, not because they went to their boss asking ''could you please be nicer to us'?'.

 

[benjipwns]

No a house is a basic need and is personal property. Different than a place of private profit by a corporate entity.

How so? You're profiting off of having that house in all sorts of tiny ways that aren't necessarily monetary, and there's certainly no need for you to own it, especially exclusively, when it could be put to better use or we could at least reduce inequality for those who don't have one or the means to compete with someone who is using their wealth to fund violence that demands others grant them a monopoly on the "personal property" they've stolen.

 

[kess]

This is in the "Anarchist" play book. They infiltrate a peaceful protest and start breaking shit and throwing shit at the cops from behind groups of peaceful protesters. They hope they can turn the crowd into a full blown riot, but it rarely works. What it does do is put innocent people out to make a statement in danger and give an easy out to dismiss the entire cause of the protest. Same shit happens every year at the Mayday protest in Seattle.

It's a justification for tyranny or the cause of it. Violent anarchists and their fellow travelers are ecoercive and intimating-- Mussolini was right about the "confused dictator" bit.

 

[ClosingADoor]

They achieve this happiness on they backs of exploited workers in other capitalist countries in Asia and South America.

Sip your latte and tell yourself how wonderful capitalism is. I doubt the guy who picked the beans feels the same.

Look up the stats about people being lifted out of poverty, getting education, healthcare and a ton of other benefits over the last 200 years. Capitalism has bettered their lives, that is a fact. Could it be better? Yes. But it is the best we have at the moment.

He was being exploited by being forced to work to survive.

You're joking right? Poor humans, having to work to survive.

No because I live every day wanting to give the 3rd world the economic justice they deserve. I have goodwill so to say, you can't claim that of Starbucks (tax evading) or Bank of America (it's a bank). It's also not as if I am a central actor in the oppression/poverty of the 3rd world.
It's a totally different situation more so because a house is either personal property or at least a personal living space. A facility of Bank of America is just a place of business and property of a corporation.

If I own a franchise or building, it is my personal property. Nothing gives you the right to demolish that.

If people in the past thought this you were still working in a factory for 14 hours a day, 7 days a week. Any workers rights you got were earned with the literal blood and broken bones of your predecessors, not because they went to their boss asking ''could you please be nicer to us'?'.

Those are not the issues those protest were about. Those people doing the destruction did not have an agenda of furthering workers right or an actual goal. This is not about unions fighting for their rights.

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

How so? You're profiting off of having that house in all sorts of tiny ways that aren't necessarily monetary, and there's certainly no need for you to own it, especially exclusively, when it could be put to better use or we could at least reduce inequality for those who don't have one or the means to compete with someone who is using their wealth to fund violence that demands others grant them a monopoly on the "personal property" they've stolen.

I would be hesitant to be so hostile to personal property*. Now of course bourgeois try and say that the means of production they possess is 'personal' but advocating for forced shared housing is where the toothbrush memes come from.

*Unless they're kulaks.

 

[Coriolanus]

your enjoyment is palpable, benj.

Spoiler

And throbbing.

I'm sure where everyone can agree is that there's always going to be jerks who do jerky things because it seems fun. I hear some of really deplorable people even do things like play video games.

Proper people call those "murder simulators".

Those are lies. Hurtful lies.

Your red name tells a different tale, b.
==/==

Fwiw, as has probably been mentioned, in any demonstration of significant size, acts like these should be expected. Even if they do not happen, false flag ops will ensure that they do. When one is willing to dismiss the movement due to shit like this, one is playing into the hands of those that oppose the movement. Thus, taking a page from the great philosopher Ben Shapiro: ignore the shit out of it and press your point anyway.

 

[jorma]

Destroying property is not violence.

Neogaf. The alt-.reality world where words are violence, but torching someones car isn't.

 

[ColdPizza]

Neogaf. The alt-.reality world where words are violence, but torching someones car isn't.

lol, nailed it

 

[Kinyou]

Trump is a symptom not the cause. Protesting Trump does nothing to change what brings the Trump's into power.

These people that Trump and limo service owners represent are launching violence against billions of people almost constantly and when someone under attack strikes back everyone complains about the victim acting in self defense. Just like with the guy who punched the Nazi.

It's hard to see this as self defense when the business owner is exactly the guy Trump's policies target. Basically don't be surprised if a pro-Trump supporter cheers next to you while you burn that Limo.

 

[Condom]

How so? You're profiting off of having that house in all sorts of tiny ways that aren't necessarily monetary, and there's certainly no need for you to own it, especially exclusively, when it could be put to better use or we could at least reduce inequality for those who don't have one or the means to compete with someone who is using their wealth to fund violence that demands others grant them a monopoly on the "personal property" they've stolen.

I am not a house owner but a renter and I share my house with others. So yeah no valid reason to burn my living space down even when going with your sarcastic reasoning.

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Look up the stats about people being lifted out of poverty, getting education, healthcare and a ton of other benefits over the last 200 years. Capitalism has bettered their lives, that is a fact. Could it be better? Yes. But it is the best we have at the moment.

Whatever helps you sleep better.

 

[JustenP88]

When the shit did GAF start giving a damn about personal property wrt political protest? Lol, maybe I'm imagining previous threads or something.

Either way, I'm not big on the whole 'destruction of property' stuff although the fact that we're all arguing about an event that we've been made aware of by an interview with a conservative blog or whatever makes me not give a shit. You know why that interview happened. Looks like we're going to co-opt the conservative tactic of delegitimizing protest by focusing on the more 'unsavory', albeit isolated, elements.

Personally, if you're going to go down the path of destroying property, make it property belonging to the government or whatever you're directly protesting. I mean, a limo makes sense, given that this struggle is heavily rooted in class-based issues... Still, it's hard to see this sort of escalation as anything but impotent if you're not willing to take your protest directly toward the source.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Whatever helps you sleep better.

Mind looking up some stats from, let's say, the 1800s? It is a fact that world poverty has declined.

 

[leatherhat]

I am not a house owner but a renter and I share my house with others. So yeah no valid reason to burn my living space down even when going with your sarcastic reasoning.

Somebody owns it. And that means it's gotta go. I know it sucks but this hurts trump more than you.

 

[Netherscourge]

Violent and destructive rioters are assholes and are detrimental to positive causes and movements.

They are as much an enemy as anyone else.

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Mind looking up some stats from, let's say, the 1800s? It is a fact that world poverty has declined.

I'm sure that really comforts the millions of workers packed in like sardines in Chinese factories. Your life is possible because they suffer. You cannot get away from it.

 

[benjipwns]

I am not a house owner but a renter and I share my house with others. So yeah no valid reason to burn my living space down

Reducing housing inequality.

 

[jph139]

You're right about the stakes, the ideals at play, and the hard choices. However, are you willing to go up to that business owner and tell that to his face?

As a side note, I don't mean to single you out or anything by using your quote in the OP. That was just the most recent thing that I could remember and find easily that helped to frame my point.

Of course I wouldn't say it to his face, but that'd just be impolite. I'm sure if I were in his position, I'd be mighty pissed. I understand why no one would want to deal with that. And I would much rather see that anger directed at the real perpetrators. Trash Trump's hotels, not the local coffee shops. I'm not saying "property destruction isn't wrong," I'm saying it's orders of magnitude less wrong than physical violence and systemic oppression.

It's just... I dunno, I find it hard to get mad about it. I'm not going to hold random people to higher standards than the political establishment.

And yeah, no problem with the quote. I stand by it - you weren't taking it out of context or misrepresenting me so I don't have a problem with it.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I'm sure that really comforts the millions of workers packed in like sardines in Chinese factories. Your life is possible because they suffer. You cannot get away from it.

Ah, China. The country that is lifting millions of people from extreme poverty because they let in capitalism. Have a look: http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/CHN

Again, what is your alternative?

 

[Dalibor68]

Neogaf. The alt-.reality world where words are violence, but torching someones car isn't.

Yeah same thought came to me earlier. Not sure whether it's hilarious or sad.

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Ah, China. The country that is lifting millions of people from extreme poverty because they let in capitalism. Have a look: http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/CHN

Again, what is your alternative?

Lol millions of people now make more than $1.90 a day! How free!

This is laughable dude.

 

[pirateluigi]

Lol millions of people now make more than $1.90 a day! How free!

This is laughable dude.

But you still need an alternative. You can't burn the system down without something to replace it. Otherwise you end up with military despots.

 

[benjipwns]

Ah, China. The country that is lifting millions of people from extreme poverty because they let in capitalism. Have a look: http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/CHN

Again, what is your alternative?

Have we tried burning down all of China?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Lol millions of people now make more than $1.90 a day! How free!

This is laughable dude.

No, these are the facts. Their lives are improving. Are they perfect? Hell, no! But first you had a billion of people living of less then $1.90. Now you have 150 million. That is an improvement for 850 million people.

Again, what is your alternative?

 

[RustyNails]

The people doing bullshit like this were largely asshole anarchists. They weren't damaging their cause by doing it, either because their cause is anarchy. Fuck them and also fuck the people that use what those idiots do to discredit largely peaceful protests.

I obviously feel for those whose property is damaged through no fault of their own though.

This, and they probably didnt vote during the elections at all. Just a bunch of losers looking to make noise.

Can we start a gofundme for these two?