Meus Renaissance
Member
MmmSkyscraper said:
Ouch for Boris
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London riots spreading through UK
- Thread starter kottila
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Ouch for Boris
Napoleonthechimp
Member
The shooting is irrelevant. There is no justification for any of the disgusting behaviour exhibited by the looters.IamMikeside said:
The poor old disenfranchised youth fighting for a cause excuse... is bullshit. They're mindless animals with no self-control who are out for themselves first and if no one will give them what they want then the rest of the world can burn.
But yeah... let's go hug a hoody.
Clearly both carrot and stick are needed. We need to be better as a society at including these people, and we need to be tougher as a society in punishing them.
An entire class of people can't be waved away as "just animals". They're animals and shits *because* they're disenfranchised, and they're disenfranchised because we've been neither firm nor particularly attentive.
Speedymanic
Banned
Gaaraz said:
He can't be more than 11-12 yo.
IamMikeside said:
The shooting didn't spark events, the police reaction to the protest sparked it.
By implying that any of the looters care about the shooting (or were even aware of it) once again sees you trying apply an air of justification and legitimacy to the action of the looters.
It was the weakness of the police that was the catalyst, what they were specifically being weak about at the time is completely irrelevant.
The mere fact that looters hundreds of miles away, who could not possibly have known or cared who Dugan was, immediately started looting as well is proof of this.
thelatestmodel
Junior, please.
"BBC reporter at Highbury Magistrates Courttells BBC 5 live the first person who appeared in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon."
A teacher? WTF?
A teacher? WTF?
Napoleonthechimp said:
1. Don't put shooting in quotes, unless you're actually insinuating that there was no such thing, in which case everyone will join in mocking you mercilessly. There was a shooting, and trying to dismiss it through cheap rhetorical tricks doesn't do you any favours.
2. The things that you're claiming sparked the riots have been present for a hell of a long time without causing riots. They're part of the underlying cause, but they're demonstrably not a spark for the situation we're seeing now. Your position is similar to that of someone claiming that an explosion at a petrol station was sparked by all the petrol lying around, not the "lit match" that someone dropped on it. Nobody's claiming that opportunism, a sense of entitlement (though that's a hideously overused phrase) and the like aren't part of the cause. Just that they aren't what sparked the riots.
3. I don't care if they give a fuck. It's not relevant. The shooting was what set this off. It's not a direct cause for a lot of the shits out there looting now, of course. But like you say, they're reacting to what they've seen happening as a response to the initial protests against the shooting. And it should be pretty obvious to anyone that more shootings aren't going to help calm the situation.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
I will not even entertain the shooting excuse.iapetus said:
More Fun To Compute
Member
Nice common sense message for us in the west midlands.
http://twitter.com/#!/SuptPayneWMP
SuptPayneWMP Mark Payne
Shops are open in Wolverhampton, show the local shopkeepers your support
3 minutes ago
http://twitter.com/#!/SuptPayneWMP
SuptPayneWMP Mark Payne
Shops are open in Wolverhampton, show the local shopkeepers your support
3 minutes ago
Speedymanic
Banned
Chaos said:
No doubt there will be a section of society who will complain about this...how dare they hit kids, etc.
:/
Meus Renaissance
Member
Funky Papa said:
Nope, I would disagree with that. There is evidence to suggest a difference of thinking depending on the socio economic status of a community. People in Hackney and Tottenham were - without condoning the looting - unsurprised. They listed various possible explanations ranging from poverty to police tensions. They were able to understand it as having underlying causes. Then when people from Battersea or less deprived areas were interviewed, the looters were described as 'mindless thugs'.
That survey above is London-wide, but if you took it in each borough I'm almost certain you will see a trend pop up in attitude and opinions depending on which area you ask. The 'liberals', or at least the ones talking, are perhaps the ones involved directly with working with these communities so they naturally share those opinions.
Mecha_Infantry
Banned
Ark said:
Read this thread enough and apparently it's sub-human scum who just want to loot, with nothing inbetween their ears!
iapetus said:
Even the mods are at it :'(!!
Is there a transcript to what Killa Cam said? At work at the mo
SmokyDave said:
No, this 'baby' is the direct result of Thatcherite attitudes of greed and self-interest spiralled out of control. It was the unintended product of a right wing fantasy and the current right wing government has again proven to be incapable of dealing with it.
Until a culture develops that isn't focussed on the gathering of wealth and possesions with a complete disregard for others and is instead is focussed on shared values and shared social responsibility then we will continue to suffer from the results of this misguided ethos from both the top and bottom of society.
And while you might blame "the left", how does that synch with the fact that the same underclass also exists in right-wing America? The Americans have the largest prison population in the first world, an extremely aggressive police force and you'd be mad to suggest they're better for it.SmokyDave said:
Meus Renaissance said:
This may very well have been the reasons, but they are not in any way sympathetic. These people are not poor like people in East Africa are poor. They do not suffer from harsh policing practises like people in North Korea do.
They do not suffer at all. The fact that, through their own laziness, they do not have quite as much as other people in England is not worthy of sympathy.
We do not need to understand them, they need to understand us.
And at the moment the primary tool for education is a baton round to the face.
iapetus said:
But that IS an excuse. Nothing more.
Nothing that happened to someone that is not related to YOU justifies YOU running amok, looting, stealing and creating a mess.
Nothing.
Especially when YOU are hurting other people's properties in the process.
(by "you", I do not mean you, but anyone who is amongst the looters.)
Salazar said:
Bingo. Although it's not that bizarre that riots of this magnitude issued from that point, at least partly for the reasons that he's claiming sparked the riot. Those underlying problems damn well need to be addressed, but shooting more people is more likely to spark more riots than help the situation.
V_Arnold said:
And now you'll be wanting to point out where I (or anyone) said that it does.
It's a common misconception in threads about social issues (for reasons that I've never been able to get to grips with) that explaining something counts as excusing it. Nobody's saying that a police shooting - unjustified or not - excuses rioting. Just that without that shooting we wouldn't have these riots right now.
These kids wouldn't even exist if we hadn't paid for them. I want to know how many have employed parents and I want to know how many have absent fathers. I bet the percentages would be utterly staggering.mokeyjoe said:
Totally, completely and utterly different kettle of fish.Sir Fragula said:
In the long run, I want to see a left-wing approach, don't get me wrong. Targetting the right help at the right people is essential for a healthy and happy society. Not everyone can do it on their own, I do appreciate that.
But that comes after we send a strong message that this will never, ever be tolerated again. That's where the right comes in.
Well, I'd be a bit daft to argue with that. I graciously concede that this is a child of mixed parentage. It still needs aborting.More Fun To Compute said:
Meus Renaissance
Member
Ex-gang member Darryl is hitting every point on Sky News right now.
Psychotext
Member
Not greatly surprised by that.More Fun To Compute said:
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
We pay a lot less in taxes. I could care less that we have a lot of people in prisons.Sir Fragula said:
The solution to the problem in my view is easy vaguely in theory but harder of course in practice. However:
Short term: right wing solution, crack down hard with the police, baton rounds in the face style. Society cannot function like this.
Long term: erase the semi-Thatcherite status quo the country's been sliding to and using left wing style politics, try not to create an underclass with nothing to lose.
As I said though, easier said than done.
Short term: right wing solution, crack down hard with the police, baton rounds in the face style. Society cannot function like this.
Long term: erase the semi-Thatcherite status quo the country's been sliding to and using left wing style politics, try not to create an underclass with nothing to lose.
As I said though, easier said than done.
These scum are not a very high percentage of the population though. I'm all for punishing them, but to arbitrarily paint all poor people as scum does no one any good.SmokyDave said:
So as long as you don't pay much in tax, you don't care about anyone else in your country? What a great approach to life!Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
spiderman123
Member
SmokyDave said:
Personally I would summon Iron Man or use the Bat signal
SmokyDave said:
You've been listening to too many US politicians. There's no reason that the left has to be ineffectual when it comes to this sort of thing. In fact some far-left governments (in name, at least) have been very effective at laying the smack down on anyone deemed to be insufficiently compliant with their particular version of left-wing thinking.
Mecha_Infantry said:
I cant agree with this. The government might share some of the blame but the Parents should bare most. Its up to them to bring up their kids not the government, they simply open doors and provide options. Schools, work groups, security and jobs. If these kids choose not to see options or dismiss it due to effort required then the only people to blame are the individuals that hold that attitude. There's always help available to nurture productivity.
But from what i've witnessed these kids simply hang about on corners and park benches, unenthusiastic about working or studying. If they did, they'd realize "Its the government" is a fictional position perpetuated by the lazy to justify their ineptitude.
Salazar said:
And by that, you mean it is a stimulus for an already extremely easily triggerable, moralless youth? Yeah, it can also be a stimulus for those. As clearly presented. But we have law enforcement exactly for situations like this: "eye for an eye" does not translate into the right of wrecking havoc like this for something that one considers unjust.
NinjaTehFish
Banned
Napoleonthechimp said:
Un-fucking-believable.
What if i said your the animal? Who lacks the intelligence and empathy to realise that cumulative generations of people growing up and living with the rest of society telling them this (bolded) and worse are going to act just like that.
Its a monster everyone who is not them has let fester, and it can only be slain with compassion not further hate.
spiderman123
Member
I have a nice sweet solution. If they throw something at you, throw something back of the same equivalency. If they break into your store, you break into their home and steal their clothes etc.
Kentpaul said:
Water cannons don't work in this sort of situation. It's been pointed out time and time again by people who know.
Paintball guns is a fucking awesome suggestion made by someone earlier in this thread, though. I suggest loading them with a special dye that stains like buggery and smells of human faeces.
As for fucking up their expensive clothes, who cares? They're just off to loot some more, innit?
I make a point of ignoring US politics because it drains my faith in humanity. Even GAF exposes me to too much of that nonsense. Thank god none of our politicians have suggested praying to end these riots, I'd have had a stroke.iapetus said:
As for there being no reason for the left being ineffective, that may be the case but they're still ineffective.
V_Arnold said:
Yup.
I'm only preferring words like "stimulus" because I mean to defend the proposition that these riots, while chaotic and rife with apparent motivelessness, did in a rather strong technical sense, and in a less strong but still substantial practical sense, have a cause.
NinjaTehFish said:
It could be slain in a number of other ways: rubber bullets, watercannons, live ammo, national service, forced labour, eugenics...
If a single extra penny of tax payers money is spent on placating these feral scum it'll be a travesty and the government will pay for it at the next election.
NinjaTehFish said:
It's a combination of that and a welfare system that at certain (common) levels actively discourages work. And, of course, a metric fuckton of other stuff. Looking for one or two simplistic reasons for this sort of clusterfuck is always going to be a mistake.
spiderman123
Member
DodgeAnon said:
exactly
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