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Marriage Equality Heads to SCOTUS - Obergefell v. Hodges |OT| The Last Days of Murica

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ivysaur12

Banned
Tony Perkins is a slimeball, but he's also had a failed political career. It's pretty easy to pick apart any of his talking points with even a small iota of knowledge on the issue at hand. And he knows he's lost from the moment that interview starts. Also, he'll never be an elected official again, so that's nice.

Buzzfeed gives a preview of the arguments

WASHINGTON — On Tuesday, the Supreme Court will hear two-and-a-half hours of arguments about two questions. They’re simple and direct:

1. Does the U.S. Constitution require states to license a marriage between two people of the same sex?

2. Does the U.S. Constitution require states to recognize the marriage between two people of the same sex when their marriage was lawfully licensed and performed in other states?

It’s pretty straight-forward. And yet: More than 150 briefs have been filed with the justices, including the ones from the parties to the cases — state officials from Kentucky, Michigan, Ohio, or Tennessee and people challenging marriage or marriage recognition bans in each of those states.

But most of the briefs are amicus curiae, or friend of the court, briefs — arguments made by people and groups not directly involved in the case but have an interest in the outcome and believe they have information of value or a viewpoint of interest to the court on the issues. There were 78 amicus briefs filed in support of the same-sex couples — including one filed by the Obama administration. And 67 amicus briefs were filed in support of the states — including one by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

The parties are raising challenges to the ban under two constitutional provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment: equal protection and “fundamental rights” protections.

When the Supreme Court hears cases about the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution, the justices generally examine laws under the “rational basis” standard. Basically, for a law to be upheld, the government must show that the law is “rationally related” to a legitimate state interest. This is a relatively simple question — is there a legitimate reason for the law? — and is an easier, lower standard to meet.

In other words: The most basic question to be argued at the Supreme Court on Tuesday is whether the marriage and marriage recognition bans are, in effect, arbitrary.

In these cases, here are the reasons and goals that the states have put forth as legitimate reasons to limit marriage and marriage recognition to opposite-sex couples:

1. The democratic process needs to be respected (voters put the marriage ban in place)
2. Federalism (the U.S. government should respect the states’ decisions in the area of family law)
3. “Responsible procreation” (the government should ensure that the people who can “accidentally” procreate — i.e. not same-sex couples — will be encouraged to have stable relationships)
4. Biology, because same-sex couples can’t procreate naturally (“Biology alone, therefore, provides a rational explanation for not expanding marriage to add same-sex couples,” Tennessee officials argue)
5. Promoting households with a mother and a father (Michigan officials argue changing the legal definition of marriage could have a long-term consequence of “[undermining marriage] in the long term as an institution for linking parents to their biological children.”)
6. Promoting higher birth rates (the “ensuring the future of the human race” argument only comes directly from Kentucky, among the sates)
7. Caution (states should be able to see what the effect of letting same-sex couples marry is before acting)

And while the plaintiffs argue that the marriage bans are unconstitutional under rational basis — in other words, that those are not legitimate government objectives or that they are not rationally related to the bans — the plaintiffs also believe that proving there is a rational basis for the bans shouldn’t be enough.

There's a lot of legalese in there, but it's good stuff.
 
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I did my part (referendum in MD), now it's time for the justices to do theirs.
 

HylianTom

Banned
Smart money says that Roberts doesn't really matter. There are four people who will definitely fall on the side of freedom and justice plus Anthony Kennedy, who would be pulling quite the face-heel turn if he suddenly decided to abandon the support for gay rights that he's been building upon for his entire career. You have nothing to be anxious about.

The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.
Every move that the court has made between Windsor and today has pointed in the same direction. Letting lower court rulings in favor of gay marriage stand, not stepping in until an appeals-level court ruled against equality, not requiring a hold in Alabama (resulting in Clarence Thomas' really telling dissent)..

I've gone through it over and over in my head: which four justices would grant cert at each of these steps, and why? Were the four liberals playing a long game, letting this percolate for as long as possible? Were the four conservatives weary of granting cert, unsure/untrusting of which way Kennedy would go? There are only a few possibilities, but the most realistic ones pointed to a good outcome in June.

With that said.. I won't relax until the ink on the majority opinion is dry.
 

Paskil

Member
Florida was the major breaker that showed their hand, IMO. In Florida, they refused a stay on a ruling that had not yet been heard at the appellette level.

It's hella cold out here. Sleeping outside when you're not prepped for camping in weather that is close to freezing is a bummer. Last November, at least I was prepared when we took a camping trip. Also, this is coming from someone that deals with Wisconsin Winter every year.

And I'm thinking 6-3 with Roberts either signing on, or concurring in part. Depends on if the decision establishes sexual orientation as a protected class.
 

AndyD

aka andydumi
Florida was the major breaker that showed their hand, IMO. In Florida, they refused a stay on a ruling that had not yet been heard at the appellette level.

It's hella cold out here. Sleeping outside when you're not prepped for camping in weather that is close to freezing is a bummer. Last November, at least I was prepared when we took a camping trip. Also, this is coming from someone that deals with Wisconsin Winter every year.

And I'm thinking 6-3 with Roberts either signing on, or concurring in part. Depends on if the decision establishes sexual orientation as a protected class.

What do you need? I have a few friends in DC and I can see if they can bring you some stuff.
 

Paskil

Member
Nah, we're good. Its beautiful right now. I just walked down to a local coffee shop. Someone that is in line has a sister in Nebraska that will always send out coffee for social issue cases. She ordered like $200 worth of coffee and a few of us picked it up. A lot of nice people have been bringing things. Some of the plaintiffs came earlier with coffee, donuts, and bagels.

It's very generous of you to offer, though. Thank you!

The circus is really picking up. Media everywhere. I expect that things will be kicking off with both sides sending out their troops for battle.


Kentucky plaintiffs posed for a media picture and I stile a quick picture, as well.

q52Yw4Wh.jpg
 

ivysaur12

Banned
There's a nice propaganda-esque video running around about the Oregon bakery. I do think the idea that trying to reposition the argument (as some here have) as making a cake for a gay couple is akin to "participating in a same-sex wedding" instead of refusing to serve a gay couple is a good attack point for the right, though ultimately incorrect.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Sorry for the double post, but we have the history of Kennedy on gay rights:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-kennedy-gay-marriage-20150427-story.html#page=2

Anthony M. Kennedy was a 44-year-old appeals court judge in Sacramento — a Republican appointee and happily-married Catholic — when he first confronted the question of whether the Constitution protected the rights of gays and lesbians.

His answer in 1980 did not make him a gay rights hero. Kennedy upheld the Navy’s decision to discharge three service members for “homosexual acts.”

But less noticed in that somewhat reluctant opinion — unusual for its time, just two weeks before Ronald Reagan was elected president — were the doubts Kennedy raised about the constitutionality of laws criminalizing gay sex.

“To many persons, the regulations [labeling homosexuals as unfit] may seem unwise,” Kennedy wrote for the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. Outside the “unique” military context, the Constitution may well protect “consensual private homosexual conduct.”

Judges Antonin Scalia and Robert Bork, whom Reagan appointed to the U.S. appeals court in Washington, dismissed as “completely frivolous” the notion that the Constitution extended rights to gays and lesbians.

"We would find it impossible to conclude that a right to homosexual conduct is fundamental" and protected as a matter of liberty and privacy, they wrote in 1984.

Reagan would later nominate both Scalia and Bork to the Supreme Court, but Bork’s nomination failed after a momentous Senate battle. After Bork’s defeat, Reagan turned to a young lawyer he had known from his years in Sacramento — Anthony Kennedy.

It turned out to be pivotal moment in the nation's struggle over gay rights.

Kathleen Sullivan, then a young Harvard University law professor, recalls hurriedly reading Kennedy’s 1980 opinion on her way to a meeting with Senate Democrats who were considering the new nominee. “What a contrast,” recalled Sullivan, a former Stanford Law School dean. "I said, 'He’s not going to be like Bork at all.'"
 

Ravidrath

Member
There's a nice propaganda-esque video running around about the Oregon bakery. I do think the idea that trying to reposition the argument (as some here have) as making a cake for a gay couple is akin to "participating in a same-sex wedding" instead of refusing to serve a gay couple is a good attack point for the right, though ultimately incorrect.

They will redefine pretty much any noun, adjective or verb to stop marriage from being "redefined."
 

Paskil

Member
Met the two oldest plaintiffs. Adorable couple. Together 47 years, closeted for 45 until one got cancer. Said they're doing it for us (the newer generations). They were incredibly sweet and both had a great sense of humor. Been awesome to meet so many involved parties.

zf5WZd0h.jpg


And I'm crouched so I don't tower over them, I don't have a boner. The one on the left was hitting on quite a few people, though, lol.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
I can't believe it's going to be tomorrow. Crazy. Thank god I get to work from home and can listen to the oral arguments as soon as they go up.
plz put them up tomorrow

The plaintiffs:

CDoQ9lLWMAIGTqu.jpg:large


Wait, and Japan gets Xenoblade Chronicles X tomorrow? God is real.
 

HylianTom

Banned
Audio should be available early in the afternoon. (I'm really looking forward to the dog re-enactment!)

C-SPAN 3 is devoting a huge chunk of their programming to this tomorrow, from the morning call-in show through the afternoon. They'll be airing the oral arguments at 3PM (eastern) tomorrow.

http://www.c-span.org/schedule/?channel=3

We're finally here. I should probably force myself to sleep. *deep breaths*
 

Paskil

Member
10AM est start. Supposedly 2 1/2 hours long. Not sure I can sleep. Only around 6-7 hours before they hand out the numbers to those of us in line. Some motherfucker got in line in the second spot a bit ago. Hope they know they're wasting their time and aren't going to get number 2. This is a self policing line and neither the legitimate waiters, nor the line sitters, are going to allow that shit. I imagine if he doesn't move by the time the numbers are passed out, the police are going to have to arrest him to avoid a violent outbreak.

#38 go.
 

HylianTom

Banned
What time do oral arguments start/end tomorrow? I should know this...
10AM!

I've seen estimates that the first argument's audio will be available as early as 1230PM, with the second argument available about an hour or so after that. Either way, it should be pretty early in the afternoon.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
10AM est start. Supposedly 2 1/2 hours long. Not sure I can sleep. Only around 6-7 hours before they hand out the numbers to those of us in line. Some motherfucker got in line in the second spot a bit ago. Hope they know they're wasting their time and aren't going to get number 2. This is a self policing line and neither the legitimate waiters, nor the line sitters, are going to allow that shit. I imagine if he doesn't move by the time the numbers are passed out, the police are going to have to arrest him to avoid a violent outbreak.

#38 go.

Good luck! And 12:30 EST is perfect.
 

HylianTom

Banned
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Good morning!

(the main networks are centered on Baltimore right now, but CSPAN has some crazy callers this morning. Some of them sound like they're going to come unhinged on this topic.)
 

HylianTom

Banned
Print this picture and frame it with the ticket. I'm serious.

..

Meanwhile, I'm listening to folks calling-in on CSPAN's Morning Journal. For the 'Oppose' callers, it's almost always chapter & verse, seldom article & section..
 

HylianTom

Banned
Something about the goings-on outside of the SCOTUS building.. it's strangely similar.

backstothewall.jpg


It's just like Mardi Gras! Remarkable!

(there's a guy outside holding a sign that says, "Marry me, Scalia!")
 

Yaboosh

Super Sleuth


One of the few things you can wait outside for days for and never regret (assuming the case goes as expected).

Should be an awesome memorable experience.

Imagine being there for Loving v Virginia, or Brown v Board of Ed, or Roe v Wade.
 
Kennedy:

He pointed out that the definition of marriage had prevailed for millennia and it seemed a fast change; on the other hand, he noted that the time between Lawrence and this case was about equal to the time between Brown and Loving -- this raised the question for him of whether this might all be too fast to redefine such a long standing institution
 

HylianTom

Banned
I love how they've set-up this system of live-blogging the proceedings. Clever:

To answer a few questions about how the live-blog is working: we had four lawyers (Eric, me, Kevin, and Tom) in the lawyer's lounge, where the audio is piped in. As developments take place, we are sending people out to update you. But once we leave, we can't go back in. As of now, Eric and I have left. Tom will leave close to the end of the first part of the argument. Kevin will leave later. So for now, we will answer your questions until Tom gets here--and then you'll get some new info.
by Tejinder 9:58 AM
Comment
- See more at: http://live.scotusblog.com/Event/Live_blog_Obergefell_v_Hodges#sthash.p2nbP2sM.dpuf
 

Mike M

Nick N
I wonder if anyone opposed to marriage equality actually thinks this will be a slam dunk in their favor the way almost everyone else thinks legalization is a foregone conclusion...
 

HylianTom

Banned
Justice Breyer is apparently questioning why same sex marriage can't be decided by state voters. Uhhhhh.

He's playing devil's advocate. They love to do that.

I won't freak out until I hear how they handled the states' lawyer.

(then I'll freak-out!)

SCOTUSblog said:
FWIW: We will have a bunch more information when we get a report from the second half of argument, but I did not find Breyer's question (reported in the tweet below) at all surprising. He was strongly encouraging the petitioner to answer a question OTHER Justices had been posing. No doubt Justice Breyer himself was interested in whether the Court should be the one who decides the question at issue, or the voters instead, but he also wanted the petitioners to get their views out for other Justices as well. - See more at: http://live.scotusblog.com/Event/Live_blog_Obergefell_v_Hodges#sthash.p2nbP2sM.QcUrjGBb.dpuf
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Justice Breyer is apparently questioning why same sex marriage can't be decided by state voters. Uhhhhh.

That's how oral arguments work. You sometimes play devil's advocate in order to tease out the necessary response. It's a rhetorical device some justices like.

Have to put out a script, but I saw this and just wanted to point out it's over:

SCOTUSblog @ SCOTUSblog
Kennedy note at SSM argument: Same amount of time between Lawrence and Obergefell as between Brown and Loving.

SCOTUSblog @ SCOTUSblog
In Second Half of # Scotus Arg J. Kennedy questions state Whether Denying # SSM denies gays and Their Children dignity of # marriage .
 

ivysaur12

Banned
It seems as if that there will be a concurrence from a few of conservative judges in regards to marriage recognition, though that will be moot. Because, well:

Justice Kennedy asked almost no questions in the argument on the second question (the marriage recognition question).
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
I'm surprised they left the screaming lunatic in the audio (about 27:00). I bet they'll remove that eventually.
 
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