Unless you combine them with a tinfoil hat.
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Mask Efficacy |OT| Wuhan!! Got You All In Check
- Thread starter keraj37
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diffusionx
Gold Member
They closed all the businesses. They ordered us to stay at home. They prohibited us from having parties and interacting with people. They closed all the churches. They didn’t let us see our loved ones in hospitals. They didn’t let us have proper funerals. They ordered us to wear a mask on our face at all times, under threat of punishment by law. They released prisoners to wreak havoc on the population. This is coming upon six months and they are now talking about this like it is indefinite, the new normal, no end in sight. Even as all the numbers that justified the initial steps were proven false, when the actual numbers keep going down, they just change the rationale.
but yes it is tinfoil hat territory to talk about how they are using this to control us
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Dude, it has been stated over and over again that wearing a mask lowers the risk of you spreading the virus, not catching it.
The purpose of the mask is so that asymptomatic carriers wouldn't spread it.
People with symptoms should be in quarantine.
You're acting like "the guy didn't wear a mask therefore he caught covid" which is utter nonsense.
What's interesting to me is that (as per the post from @hariseldon previously) Public Health England are openly admitting that they count any death where the person had covid as a covid death.
So you could be shot in the head and they test your corpse and if you had covid they will say you died of covid.
Could make for an interesting murder defense.
On top of that they just admit that the number of flu deaths is "SLIGHTLY FEWER" compared to previous years as if that's not a major red flag.
We are taking all these measures and the flu statistics are staying in the same range? What?
Yet... every country in the world is going along with it, more or less.
When you consider the sort of differences between USA, UK, Russia, Japan, China etc it's odd that they would all be on board with this.
I suppose it's always possible that the virus is FAR worse than they are telling the public.
However you have high profile cases where they seem to have recovered just fine.
The mixed messaging is just so strange and I wouldn't blame anyone who thinks something else is going on behind the curtain here.
It appears the ONS doesn't actually track flu deaths specifically:What's interesting to me is that (as per the post from @hariseldon previously) Public Health England are openly admitting that they count any death where the person had covid as a covid death.
So you could be shot in the head and they test your corpse and if you had covid they will say you died of covid.
Could make for an interesting murder defense.
On top of that they just admit that the number of flu deaths is "SLIGHTLY FEWER" compared to previous years as if that's not a major red flag.
We are taking all these measures and the flu statistics are staying in the same range? What?
Yet... every country in the world is going along with it, more or less.
When you consider the sort of differences between USA, UK, Russia, Japan, China etc it's odd that they would all be on board with this.
I suppose it's always possible that the virus is FAR worse than they are telling the public.
However you have high profile cases where they seem to have recovered just fine.
The mixed messaging is just so strange and I wouldn't blame anyone who thinks something else is going on behind the curtain here.
"We are responsible for publishing mortality statistics for deaths registered in England and Wales. We do not report numbers of influenza deaths separately, these deaths are either reported with pneumonia deaths or as part of a larger group containing all respiratory diseases "
"We publish a dataset for deaths registered weekly in England and Wales, which includes figures for deaths by all respiratory diseases and the coronavirus (COVID-19). In this publication, influenza deaths are not shown separately, instead they are included in respiratory deaths ".
And regarding the actual death figures, once they release the ones with the deaths ocurring within 28 days, we should be able to compare. I can't imagine it would make a massive difference, if we think that your "monthly" chance of dying due to all causes is pretty low.
DeepBreath87
Banned
There is obviously an aspect of this that is about control. For instance, people have had to bury their relatives who died alone in SNFs and hospitals without funerals. Funerals were too dangerous. They spread the virus. Now I’m sure they could spread the virus. I have no doubt. But George Floyd had 3 or 4 of them. John Lewis had a huge one with a packed house. That level of blatant inconsistency will lead people to question all this. At the very least it seems like the rules don’t apply to certain people depending on whether the people in charge agree with your politics.
Then you see “public health professionals” signing letters making excuses for BLM protests while banning church gatherings. Or teachers unions demanding that police be defunded before teachers will go back to work. Even the Pope of Science Dr Fauci seems to have a tough time being consistent.
They stopped people from having back and cancer surgeries, but made sure the abortion clinics kept operating.
They told everyone not to wear masks, then demanded they do it as soon as they walk out the front door.
We were told it was two weeks to slow the spread. Then a month. Now it’s “New Normal”.
Maybe this is just the way it has to be. Maybe not. The only consistency is inconsistency, and when anyone points it out, they are met with scorn and called “anti science” or “conspiracy theorist”.
I personally am none of those things. I know the disease is real and I am willing and have made changes to my behavior as a result. But I also see what’s going on here. It’s not all about public health.
Then you see “public health professionals” signing letters making excuses for BLM protests while banning church gatherings. Or teachers unions demanding that police be defunded before teachers will go back to work. Even the Pope of Science Dr Fauci seems to have a tough time being consistent.
They stopped people from having back and cancer surgeries, but made sure the abortion clinics kept operating.
They told everyone not to wear masks, then demanded they do it as soon as they walk out the front door.
We were told it was two weeks to slow the spread. Then a month. Now it’s “New Normal”.
Maybe this is just the way it has to be. Maybe not. The only consistency is inconsistency, and when anyone points it out, they are met with scorn and called “anti science” or “conspiracy theorist”.
I personally am none of those things. I know the disease is real and I am willing and have made changes to my behavior as a result. But I also see what’s going on here. It’s not all about public health.
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The fact of the matter is that people either can't, or pretend that they can't, understand statistics. Especially when a statistic is disproving a specific worldview.
The USA is the third most populated country in the world.
Behind India and China.
So it would be a shock, really, to find that the USA was not right up there in terms of cases.
PLUS they are doing a million tests a day.
India is 2nd in terms of population. 3rd in terms of covid cases.
If we believe China's numbers they are probably doing best of all with the 31st highest number of covid cases and the largest population in the world.
If we believe their numbers.
Who else is in the top 10 most populated nations?
Russia, Brazil, Mexico...
I wonder if they are in the top 10 for cases...
Yuuuuuup.
Indonesia, Pakistan, Nigeria, Bangladesh make up the other 10 ten most populated countries.
23rd, 14th, 49th and 15th for covid cases.
I wonder how much testing they are doing?
Can you imagine transporting this kind of stupidity from the media and people on social media into real life situations.
Your boss gives you a list of ten random customers to contact to try and sell a new product.
Then he gives your colleague, Dave, a list of one hundred random customers to contact.
You come back at the end of the day with 5 sales.
Your boss is like "wtf, you useless cunt, Dave got 11 sales!".
Then your boss and Dave proceed to gloat endlessly about how awful you are at sales.
We're at that level of stupidity here.
Or it's not stupidity and, as many have said, the whole thing is political and people are happy with the messaging.
Same.
I do not doubt the virus is a real thing obviously.
I even agree with the concept of wanting to slow the spread so that you don't end up with hospitals being overwhelmed.
I am fine with wearing a mask in shops or in crowds on the off chance that I have the virus but have no symptoms.
Northern Italy was the big turning point where you realized that the situation is dire and we would definitely need some lockdowns in most places.
However, there is no excuse for the constant fear mongering.
If people are washing hands and distancing and not going to crowded venues then we ought to be able to keep cases down.
The mask thing is about control and it appeals to the stupidity of the lowest common denominator.
When they see someone out and about with no mask on they feel like they can photograph or video or just abuse that person because they've been told "people who don't wear masks are basically killers".
It's gone so far that people are seriously going on about the need to wear masks in your own home etc.
Then of course there is the "peaceful protest" factor which basically says you can throw all of the rules out the window if it's for an approved cause.
H
hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
Absolutely, and it's mind-boggling. The number of people who don't understand a super-simple concept like "we didn't test much early on so those numbers are not useful for comparison with the numbers now" is extraordinary. I do sometimes wonder how we fell so far.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Yea. If COVID is what it seems to be, which is a moderately more harmful variant of the flu/cold, this is the most insane overreaction in human history. If it is actually some super engineered bioweapon that is putting a time bomb in our bodies, then we are all fucked anyway. I don't see any other option.
The mixed messaging is happening because the people in charge are not smart, and are not more well-informed on this than anybody else. That is the truth. We all want to believe that there are enlightened geniuses in charge rationally guiding policy based on facts and knowledge, but that's just not the case. It is a very naive, childish way to think of things. In fact, these are people, often political creatures, with agendas and biases, just like everyone else. Fauci has been operating in government longer than 99% of politicians at this point. I am not saying Fauci is an evil man, he may or may not be, but that he's just a man.
We are all flying blind here. Which is why skepticism and discussion is useful. The problem is, the government and media has used its power to silence dissenters and maintain the narrative. And as the narrative continues to be proven false, over and over again, as it was with the Ferguson models, the ventilator shortage, the hospital collapses, the 10% mortality rate, COVID living forever on surfaces, etc., instead of changing the narrative they just silence dissenters more.
I think you can go back in this thread and find many people who actually were much more right and whose predictions were far more correct than whatever Fauci and CNN were spouting at the time. Go back and watch those San Bernardino doctors pushed off the internet for crime think and compare it to what the media was saying at the time and tell me who was more correct with hindsight.
Especially when CNN was blasting headlines like FLORIDA GETS 15K NEW CASES, BREAKS NY'S RECORD. When in reality NY was probably getting 50-100k cases a day in April. In fact, Florida was probably getting 50-100k cases a day in July.
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Social media.
Look at Facebook, Reddit and Twitter and just observe how people behave on these platforms.
It is always about trying to come up with that new "zinger" that might go viral.
A somewhat humorous way of putting it considering the current predicament.
There could never be a deep dive into data because it's boring and because it doesn't really appeal to people in the same way as using pure emotion and anecdote to drive home a point.
"Oh the chances of dying from it are low? You try telling that to my dear old granny who died from it!?"
Like... OK... it makes no difference.
If you took certain people to a casino and said OK "if you put 100 bucks on red there is 47% (ish) chance that you will get 200 bucks back" then explained "but if you put 100 bucks on 15 there is a 2.6%(ish) chance you will get 3500 bucks back" they will definitely look at betting on red as a better prospect if they want to make a profit.
You'd have to be some kind of idiot to go "well that old lady on the last round won 3500 bucks by betting on 10 so I am going to bet on 10 too".
Yet, that's what we have here.
The odds of dying are very very low.
BUT MY NEIGHBOR CAUGHT IT AND DIED.
Yes, and the odds of dying are very very low.
H
hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
And that brings my other issue - people have an appalling understanding of risk. This is of course tied into a lack of understanding of stats but it still bears repeating. The idea that risk is a combination of likelihood and severity is something people completely miss. A high severity low likelihood event is low risk - you have to assess it more carefully and take precautions of course because for a small number of people it will be really bad, but a general rule is we don't stop life for those. Driving a car for instance has a worst event of death, but the likelihood is quite low, so we don't stop people from doing it. We mitigate the risks with rules of the road, but we don't tell people to stay in their homes. And yet here we are with a similar worst event but a risk level that, while greater, is still tiny, and we shut down our entire economy for it.
What I'm curious about is would we do this for a really bad flu? Covid is not orders of magnitude worse than flu, so presumably the line is somewhere between COVID and flu for where we shutdown but that space is quite narrow, so where does the line lie? My suspicion is that the line moves according to how sexy the risk is.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Well, the answer is objectively no. People talk about "overloaded hospitals" as some sort of justification for all this, but (A) the hospitals have not *really* been overcrowded throughout this, and (B) bad flu seasons swamp hospitals all the time - every few years in fact. It happened in 2018 and 2015. Did we lock down the entire country and put 40 million people on unemployment in 2018? Did we mandate 100% of the population walk around with masks in 2015? of course not.
H
hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
And I agree entirely with that, which leads us to the question next is what level of impact does virus sexiness have on moving the line? I'm wondering if we can mathematically derive a function for this. Or maybe I'm just an angry bastard fed up because his cowardly work-colleagues are sitting on their arses at home turning the office into a fucking morgue. Honestly there's more life in a tramp's vest.
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diffusionx
Gold Member
My theory on this, from the beginning, is that this is technology-driven hysteria, technology we made and cannot control, that technology being social media. Industrial Society and its Future predicted all this occurring 25 years ago or so.
DeepBreath87
Banned
That is such a large aspect of this. I joked with some people a while back that the Amish people in my area are probably wondering why everyone else is going completely insane around them. If you don’t have the internet or TV, this is not a thing. It exists for most people in those two places far more than it exists in their actual lives.
Seasonal influenza has a cyclical pattern. It infects the proportion of the population that is susceptible during the winter months, and then it largely goes away. Because the transmission rate for seasonal influenza is relatively low (studies estimate a median R0 of 1.28 compared with 2.79 for the coronavirus) and because we already have substantial population immunity due to past infections and vaccines, even at its peak it's only able to infect a limited proportion of the population. And because this happens every year, we have built in the capacity into the healthcare system to cope with this.
Every time you get a "novel" virus however, you open up the possibility that the existing population will not have any immunity, and if the virus has a high transmission rate, you can end up with 60% or 70% of the population being infected, and a spike far above the capacity of the healthcare system to sustain. That's at least the possibility we are faced with. If it turns out that we do have substantial population immunity already, so that only 20% of the population is susceptible say, then the situation would be more akin to the regular flu. But this would need to be proven not assumed.
See here:
Seasonal Flu vs. Pandemic Flu Infographic
Did you know that seasonal flu and pandemic flu are not the same? Here is everything you need to know.
www.cdc.gov
cryptoadam
Banned
Study explains why some get deathly ill from COVID-19, others don't
The findings signal that the main difference stems from how the patient's "evolutionarily ancient innate immune system" responds to a COVID-19 infection.
www.jpost.com
Taxexemption
Member
The reason why your statement is problematic is you apply the greatest infringement of freedom on the individual. Why should individuals have their freedom taken away in a context where we would not hold countries or corporations to account to the same extent?
I don't exist to serve the state or corporations. I am an individual, the ultimate minority whose freedom should come first.
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Majukun
Member
for the same reason a country can kill and not being count accountable for it while if a person kills he gets applied the "greatest infringment of freedom" option. they are different legal entities.
also you keep asking for countries to be held accountable, but , again, there's not a single proof that the virus is man-made and/or has been spread with malicious intent...so, until we find such proof, if it exists, what should we do exactly?
is really the fact that the american constitution doesnt have a chapter dedicated to pandemics enough of a reason to not tackle a pandemic at all?
if they didn't consider it, then you should do nothing?
Taxexemption
Member
You are strawmaning my position or else not reading closely. I said IF. I posed the question cause I wanted to understand whether or not you have a double standard regarding morality or rights when it comes to individuals vs nations.
At the end of the day law is enforced with violence. If I get together with a group of like minded friends who don't want vaccines and we form a militia to protect our freedom will you advocate the police/army open fire on us? Will you pull the trigger? Will you risk your life to make sure I am vaccinated?
12Goblins
Lil’ Gobbie
"Respiratory acidosis develops when air inhaled into and exhaled from the lungs does not get adequately exchanged between the carbon dioxide from the body and oxygen from the air." I love it.
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silentsod
Neo Member
That every death statistics everywhere is about date reported is untrue: CDC Information by Date of Death and not Reported Date
The values do change over time but the trends are fairly stable even when backdated cases are added. You can also access and save the data week to week if so desired. Another note is that the most recent week's data is always under reported on that report so ignore the steep drop at the end.
Depending on conflation of with COVID and from COVID the final numbers may also not end up being entirely true and accurate but we have no way of knowing that now. Presumably they will at least be more accurate than the in the moment reported deaths numbers.
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LateBloomer
Banned
Or anywhere else we want lol. No permission needed even! But continue your fear porn.
DeepBreath87
Banned
Yeah they didn’t close every gym in my state or make it impossible for restaurants to operate or force churches not to do in person services. That’s all just a figment of our imagination. Walmart was open guys. I mean what else do you want?
prag16
Banned
So the masks are solely responsible? Prove it.
Ontario reports 33 new coronavirus cases, lowest single-day increase since mid-March | Globalnews.ca
“This includes routine data clean-up by Toronto Public Health, which removed 21 cases, such as duplicates, that had previously been included in daily case counts,” Ontario Health Minister Christine Elliott said.globalnews.ca
Wear your damn masks, it is clearly working for us
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JaseMath
Member
Way to miss the point entirely. Think of all the people this asshole potentially spread the virus to before he become symptomatic.
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prag16
Banned
It'd be great if that was the standard with regard al ALL aspects of this.
But no, instead rampant asymptomatic spread is assumed, not proven. Masks as a monumental game changer is assumed, not proven. And so on and so forth.
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008
Banned
I was just taking issue with "Desantis did a pretty excellent job".
Today in Florida :
276 new deaths in largest daily increase
As for bars the mayor in my city said he wouldn't enforce it, so the most popular bars downtown never closed.
The first people at my job getting covid19 and quarantined for two weeks? You guessed it : Two kids in their early 20s.
Maybe a mask mandate would be hard to enforce but from what I've seen those with them are doing a lot better.
The first 4 months were fine, it felt like we were all together...
Now even my coworkers are posting regularly easily disproven nonsense about hydroxy, or just yesterday one posting that nonsense about legionaires from masks?
Maybe I've been in the south too long - 5 years now - and its like this everywhere, but the people here LOVE conspiracy theories with no grounding in science, fact, reality, etc.
with all the tourists showing up. They will be bringing it back to their states. Corona talk is on the down in the panhandle. It’s all about money right now
Joe T.
Member
Serious question, what does anyone learn from that interview? He's saying New York City is a success story while the other 49 states are failures, but how does he form that opinion considering Florida, Texas and California all have larger populations with far fewer deaths? Economically, New York was in the top three for unemployment while the conservative states the media went out of its way to trash - Florida, Arizona, Texas - are all in the middle of the pack.
Would he prefer the US acted more like New Zealand and shut everything down the minute a handful of new cases pop up?
New Zealand reinstates coronavirus restrictions after first locally transmitted case in 102 days | CNN
New Zealand’s most populous city has gone back under lockdown after new locally transmitted coronavirus cases broke the 102-day streak the country had gone without recording a local infection.
www.cnn.com
Imagine the hysteria if they find a 5th or 6th case. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
cryptoadam
Banned
At 15 minutes he brings up a chart on deaths with some interesting data.
Rest of video is a good watch.
bigsnack
Member
This is actually in line with recent data saying that there is likely cross immunity with the common cold, as well as MERS. The test must not be specific enough to tell the difference between the different viruses in that group.WTF?
cryptoadam
Banned
cryptoadam
Banned
I think that's the social aspect of wanting to give people a simple message that isn't "the science says that in X situations this could be of benefit and Y situations there would be a negligible benefit (or harm), and we think on the balance of probabilities X is more likely to apply now".
But I don't see that asymptomatic spread (in sense of completely asymptomatic) really underpins any decisions, since even in a normal case there will be an pre-symptomatic period where the person can spread the virus. And we know the virus is spreading at a given rate, so it's not like knowing there are X number of "hidden" cases will change the real figures we see in terms of deaths and hospitalisations. In fact, the more hidden cases, the lower the "real" death and hospitalisation rates actually are. So having rampant asymptomatic spread, may make it harder to stop, but it also makes it retrospectively less deadly. If we find out there are a hundred "hidden" cases for every detected case, then the virus is now a hundred times less deadly!
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How did I miss the point?
The specific comment I was replying to was:
I also see Richard Rose III tweeting "Im not wearing a f***ing mask" and dying to covid19 2 months later when he didnt have to die, and don't want that to be me.
My point was he didn't die from not wearing a mask.
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H
hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
So now you care about the economy?
Lockdown fanatics are refusing to take responsibility for the destruction they have caused.
www.spiked-online.com
A decent article on the hypocrisy of those screaming #boristhebutcher when Boris didn't lock down fast/hard enough and dared to ease restrictions and who are now complaining the economy is trashed (20% drop in GDP for 3 months though June shows a rebound with 9% growth).
Rbk_3
Member
Well, there sure as hell don’t hurt.
cryptoadam
Banned
One-second coronavirus test achieves 95% success rate - initial data
In spectroscopy, a sample is tested with a broadband light source, Newsight CEO Eli Assoolin told 'The Jerusalem Post.'
www.jpost.com
12Goblins
Lil’ Gobbie
Unless you got a fleece mask (don't tell the conservatives)
LateBloomer
Banned
Americans are so soft now its embarrassing. Im sorry you couldn't go to the gym lmao. I hope you are going to make it through this ok! You poor thing you. All I'm saying is the fear porn in this thread is crazy, you guys sound like my insane grand parents that are still claiming Obama is trying to take their guns lmao
DeepBreath87
Banned
Oh wait. So we can’t go anywhere we want? I thought that’s what you said. You didn’t say that?Americans are so soft now its embarrassing. Im sorry you couldn't go to the gym lmao. I hope you are going to make it through this ok! You poor thing you. All I'm saying is the fear porn in this thread is crazy, you guys sound like my insane grand parents that are still claiming Obama is trying to take their guns lmao
Oh wait. Yeah you did. Sounds like you were full of shit.
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diffusionx
Gold Member
Americans are so soft now its embarrassing. Im sorry you couldn't go to the gym lmao. I hope you are going to make it through this ok! You poor thing you. All I'm saying is the fear porn in this thread is crazy, you guys sound like my insane grand parents that are still claiming Obama is trying to take their guns lmao
What the hell is this rant. Yes we can't go the gym, or do a million other things, and yes it's a problem. And we can't do it because the government told us we can't and shut it all down. How is it "fear porn" to state that? It's an objective fact.
If you think it is hardcore, tough, manly, whatever to accept the government exerting total control over what you can and cannot do with your life I don't know what to say.
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Joe T.
Member
Americans are so soft now its embarrassing. Im sorry you couldn't go to the gym lmao. I hope you are going to make it through this ok! You poor thing you. All I'm saying is the fear porn in this thread is crazy, you guys sound like my insane grand parents that are still claiming Obama is trying to take their guns lmao
Clever attempt to flip the meaning of fear porn and how soft people have become to your favor. Good luck with that.
Don't want to look soft? Go about your daily life ignoring the doomsayers, enjoy it.
Asian countries have been wearing masks for a long time now and there are scientific studies in addition to hard data that shows they do not mitigate the spread of communicable diseases like the flu in public spaces by any noticeable degree. Want to respect the science? Show me, use the data to win me over because the power-hungry politicians and public health officials I'm supposed to be listening to haven't.
While I'm in no way advocating anyone do the same, I'm in my 40s with type 1 diabetes and went out of my way to get infected with this virus when a family member told me they came down with what looked like a bad cold in the dog days of summer. After seeing how quickly my body fought it off I can tell you that I have more to worry about every time I order from a fast food restaurant, buy vegetables from the grocery story or cross the street than I do this virus.
Unshackle yourself from the fear and live a healthier life.
pel1300
Member
WTF is this nonsense? Simplifying this to just gyms is dishonest and annoying AF.Americans are so soft now its embarrassing. Im sorry you couldn't go to the gym lmao. I hope you are going to make it through this ok! You poor thing you. All I'm saying is the fear porn in this thread is crazy, you guys sound like my insane grand parents that are still claiming Obama is trying to take their guns lmao
This is just like the straw man of "You just want a hair cut"
And please don't try to comes off as tough/macho by ridiculing people pushing back to strict shut down policies. The ones who are afraid of a less than 1 percent chance of death and willing to change their way of life permanently for it are the real cowards.
Insane Metal
Member
Just saw the news that Brazil has found out that horses develop really potent antibodies against COVID-19 and researches are looking into ways to use it in humans.
Nice.
Nice.
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LateBloomer
Banned
I stand by my comments. The constant fear porn of you guys actually acting like your locked in your house is pathetic. Never at anytime have we been unable to leave our homes. Get some thicker skin already good lord.
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