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[diffusionx]

I know it's kinda unfair, but compared to action games today, the first two MGS games are played in a very unusual way that by this point only really appeal to the fans. Its like the older Resident Evil games in that regard.

Nononono. The old Resident Evil games really are very awkward and weird to play. They are for the fans only. But MGS2? Nah. It plays extremely well. It's smooth, fast, logical, and consistent. The top-down view shows you everything you need to know. It mixes things up regularly (the different sections of Big Shell all throw different challenges at you). Level design is masterful.

If you want to play the game like Splinter Cell, it doesn't work, but taken on its own terms, it's really really really good. Timeless, even.

 

[GuardianE]

MGS2 is my least favorite in the series. I'll replay it in HD and see how it fares but the Raiden twist was the worse thing ever.

I agree with your opinions.

 

[GQman2121]

In Snake Eater, there's really nothing like the river

Spoiler

walk section with The Sorrow, and realizing that these spirits are all the enemies you've killed up to that point

. And then, doing it all over again on a no kill run, and having the entire scene be

Spoiler

void of anything at all!

So good.

 

[TheExodu5]

Ahh nice. Im going to skim it again.

EDIT: you used the rock band drums to press circle repeatedly? Thats amazing LOL

Haha, yeah. I felt so badass doing that.

Damn...can't believe I played that game for 11 hours straight. That must mean I liked it. It's rare for me to marathon a game like that.

 

[RedSwirl]

Nononono. The old Resident Evil games really are very awkward and weird to play. They are for the fans only. But MGS2? Nah. It plays extremely well. It's smooth, fast, logical, and consistent. The top-down view shows you everything you need to know. It mixes things up regularly (the different sections of Big Shell all throw different challenges at you).

If you want to play the game like Splinter Cell, it doesn't work, but taken on its own terms, it's really really really good. Timeless, even.

Those last two words I don't agree with. I could take it if the entirety of MGS2 were top down like MGS1, but the fixed camera angles, again, feel like a pained half-step into the third dimension. That was okay in Resident Evil or Final Fantasy because those were adventure games and slower-paced, but Metal Gear is an action game.

I know the camera angles are showing you exactly what the game wants you to see, and the game is balanced around that, but it's very hard to get back into the mindset that MGS2 wants you to be in. Getting back into the mindset of a 2D game like Streets of Rage 2 isn't hard because the idea of how you're supposed to play 2D games hasn't really changed in 20 years. Thus, 2D games still hold up a lot better these days. Earlier 3D games like MSG2 though just don't because you've played more advanced 3D games since then that don't have the same limitations. Like I said, if you're a fan, you can deal with it. The same is true of the older Resident Evil games, and because I played those for years, I can deal with them.

I would honestly say that gameplay-wise, the second MSX game is the most timeless of them all.

 

[Ridley327]

In Snake Eater, there's really nothing like the river

Spoiler

walk section with The Sorrow, and realizing that these spirits are all the enemies you've killed up to that point

. And then, doing it all over again on a no kill run, and having the entire scene be

Spoiler

void of anything at all!

So good.

One of the greatest moments in the history of obsessive attention to detail occurs during that scene.

Spoiler

If you kill a guard by the trenches that lead to your second meeting with EVA, there's a good chance that a group of vultures will fly down and start eating him. You can then kill a vulture for its meat. The game amazingly remembers this, as it will note during the river crossing by showing a guard with a vulture on his back, pecking away at him, letting you know that you ate the meat of a vulture that ate a guard.

I could not stop laughing when I realized this.

 

[RedSwirl]

One of the greatest moments in the history of obsessive attention to detail occurs during that scene.

Spoiler

If you kill a guard by the trenches that lead to your second meeting with EVA, there's a good chance that a group of vultures will fly down and start eating him. You can then kill a vulture for its meat. The game amazingly remembers this, as it will note during the river crossing by showing a guard with a vulture on his back, pecking away at him, letting you know that you ate the meat of a vulture that ate a guard.

I could not stop laughing when I realized this.

One of the things that blew me away about MGS3 was the whole food storage deal.

 

[Jb]

One of the greatest moments in the history of obsessive attention to detail occurs during that scene.

Spoiler

If you kill a guard by the trenches that lead to your second meeting with EVA, there's a good chance that a group of vultures will fly down and start eating him. You can then kill a vulture for its meat. The game amazingly remembers this, as it will note during the river crossing by showing a guard with a vulture on his back, pecking away at him, letting you know that you ate the meat of a vulture that ate a guard.

I could not stop laughing when I realized this.

This kind of stupid attention to detail is what I miss so much about the franchise. When you bought a new MGS you knew it was gonna surprise you in a variety of ways: story, gameplay, locations... The closest we have today I feel is UC, even if at this point they're fairly predictable games.

 

[Ridley327]

There's times in MGS3 where you have to wonder if Kojima was less interested in making a game and more about just realizing his absolutely craziest gameplay ideas ever. The attention to detail is absolutely astonishing the entire way through.

And I would be able to experience it all over again at 60 fps, IF IT WASN'T FOR A CERTAIN ONLINE RETAILER.

 

[Desmond]

In Snake Eater, there's really nothing like the river

Spoiler

walk section with The Sorrow, and realizing that these spirits are all the enemies you've killed up to that point

. And then, doing it all over again on a no kill run, and having the entire scene be

Spoiler

void of anything at all!

So good.

I used to get 6-10 frames there, such was the amount of killing I did

 

[creid]

EDIT: you used the rock band drums to press circle repeatedly? Thats amazing LOL

Oh wow, I really could've used that in MGS2. I was going through on every difficulty to get all the dogtags, and I needed to ask a friend to jam on circle in Extreme for me.

 

[Salaadin]

There's times in MGS3 where you have to wonder if Kojima was less interested in making a game and more about just realizing his absolutely craziest gameplay ideas ever. The attention to detail is absolutely astonishing the entire way through.

And I would be able to experience it all over again at 60 fps, IF IT WASN'T FOR A CERTAIN ONLINE RETAILER.

All the games pull some amazing easter egg type stuff but MGS3 is the most memorable to me for this. The codec convos, The Sorrow boss battle, The End

Spoiler

and the various ways to defeat him.

There was so much.

 

[RedSwirl]

And by the way people, once you get into the MSX Metal Gear 2, it has the same crazy attention to detail as the later games. I just hope they give you that game's instruction manual in the HD Collection because it had information that you needed in order to get past a certain part.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Yeah haha, I remember doing a playthrough where I killed everything possible, then my no-kill run was awesome at that part.

And yes! Metal Gear 2 is awesome. Such a great game for its time.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Can't agree with the MGS2 sentiment at all. The fixed camera is really necessary for such a closed-space game. If anything I think the free-cam movement has periodically hurt the MGS series - Peace Walker and P-Ops both suffer greatly from terrible camera controls and would have been much more easily handled with the traditional MGS1/2 angle locks.

(The great innovation of the MGS1/2 camera is that it was an exploitable system, as much as shadows or noises or hiding in a vent. Gameplay was sometimes literally looking for walls and angles where you could adjust the camera and find somebody hiding.)

I won't argue that MGS3, 4, and to some extent PW are best served by a free camera, but they are all built to be relatively free-roaming games in terms of their level design. Twin Snakes, by comparison, comes off really hollow in first person mode because you end up noticing how unimportant it was for the gameplay experience.

I'd say the real aging aspect of MGS2's design is not the camera, but the control scheme. It's perfectly functional, but the number of combos and context situations is really large compared to the average action game today. (I mean, you hold FPS mode, then hold the shoot button, then aim...) I have a lot of problems with PW's PSP controls but you can see the influence of MGS4 and recent design progress on how Snake moves and acts.

Anyway, is anyone playing a campaign of PS3 PW yet? Does it still do IP recruitment? (Actually, is the Transfarring version of PW available yet, even? I wonder how that works...)

 

[AgentOtaku]

There's times in MGS3 where you have to wonder if Kojima was less interested in making a game and more about just realizing his absolutely craziest gameplay ideas ever. The attention to detail is absolutely astonishing the entire way through.

And I would be able to experience it all over again at 60 fps, IF IT WASN'T FOR A CERTAIN ONLINE RETAILER.

Yeah, I remember going silly with MGS2 and how you could make a guard switch to a pistol because you took out one of his arms he was firing his rifle with. Thought that was sooo insane at the time

Was there anything like this with MGS4 or did it peak with MGS3?

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Fuck Amazon.

Still hasn't shipped. I have review deadlines to make for crying out loud.

 

[Ridley327]

Yeah, I remember going silly with MGS2 and how you could make a guard switch to a pistol because you took out one of his arms he was firing his rifle with. Thought that was sooo insane at the time

Was there anything like this with MGS4 or did it peak with MGS3?

MGS4 had some fun things, like the stalker during act 3 and the photoshoots with the Beauties, but nothing nearly on the same level as MGS3.

 

[AgentOtaku]

Can't agree with the MGS2 sentiment at all. The fixed camera is really necessary for such a closed-space game. If anything I think the free-cam movement has periodically hurt the MGS series - Peace Walker and P-Ops both suffer greatly from terrible camera controls and would have been much more easily handled with the traditional MGS1/2 angle locks.

(The great innovation of the MGS1/2 camera is that it was an exploitable system, as much as shadows or noises or hiding in a vent. Gameplay was sometimes literally looking for walls and angles where you could adjust the camera and find somebody hiding.)

I won't argue that MGS3, 4, and to some extent PW are best served by a free camera, but they are all built to be relatively free-roaming games in terms of their level design. Twin Snakes, by comparison, comes off really hollow in first person mode because you end up noticing how unimportant it was for the gameplay experience.

I'd say the real aging aspect of MGS2's design is not the camera, but the control scheme. It's perfectly functional, but the number of combos and context situations is really large compared to the average action game today. (I mean, you hold FPS mode, then hold the shoot button, then aim...) I have a lot of problems with PW's PSP controls but you can see the influence of MGS4 and recent design progress on how Snake moves and acts.

Anyway, is anyone playing a campaign of PS3 PW yet? Does it still do IP recruitment? (Actually, is the Transfarring version of PW available yet, even? I wonder how that works...)

Yeah, thinking of MGS2's controls again is giving me a headache. Don't get me wrong, I played it so damn much it became muscle memory, but that never made it anymore acceptable.

 

[Host Samurai]

That cinematic gameyness is kind of the defining thing about Kojima though. Metal Gear goes to great lengths to try to make its story seem believable within its own context, but it's not ashamed to be a video game and incorporate game mechanics into the story, which actually helps the suspension of disbelief instead of hurting it.

Thats what I find great about Japanese games. Japanese games are not afraid to be games and they get lots of hate when they do.

 

[Red Blaster]

Can't agree with the MGS2 sentiment at all. The fixed camera is really necessary for such a closed-space game. If anything I think the free-cam movement has periodically hurt the MGS series - Peace Walker and P-Ops both suffer greatly from terrible camera controls and would have been much more easily handled with the traditional MGS1/2 angle locks.

(The great innovation of the MGS1/2 camera is that it was an exploitable system, as much as shadows or noises or hiding in a vent. Gameplay was sometimes literally looking for walls and angles where you could adjust the camera and find somebody hiding.)

I won't argue that MGS3, 4, and to some extent PW are best served by a free camera, but they are all built to be relatively free-roaming games in terms of their level design. Twin Snakes, by comparison, comes off really hollow in first person mode because you end up noticing how unimportant it was for the gameplay experience.

I'd say the real aging aspect of MGS2's design is not the camera, but the control scheme. It's perfectly functional, but the number of combos and context situations is really large compared to the average action game today. (I mean, you hold FPS mode, then hold the shoot button, then aim...) I have a lot of problems with PW's PSP controls but you can see the influence of MGS4 and recent design progress on how Snake moves and acts.

Anyway, is anyone playing a campaign of PS3 PW yet? Does it still do IP recruitment? (Actually, is the Transfarring version of PW available yet, even? I wonder how that works...)

MGS2's controls are convoluted but the caveat is that you can do a lot of actions in the game. I miss that kind of movement complexity in days when we have "Press X to win" games so rampant.

 

[dark10x]

Yeah, thinking of MGS2's controls again is giving me a headache. Don't get me wrong, I played it so damn much it became muscle memory, but that never made it anymore acceptable.

The controls were ridiculous, but I find that to be part of the games charm. Unlike more recent games, MGS2 just gives you this ridiculous amount of subtle control over everything you can do in the game. Many of the actions you perform in MGS2 would be handled by context sensitive button presses in a modern game while MGS2 forces you to manually perform each and every step of every action allowing you to modify the results to your liking.

As for the camera, I definitely feel it was the best choice for the game and SHOULD have been the type of camera used on PSP.

 

[diffusionx]

Those last two words I don't agree with. I could take it if the entirety of MGS2 were top down like MGS1, but the fixed camera angles, again, feel like a pained half-step into the third dimension. That was okay in Resident Evil or Final Fantasy because those were adventure games and slower-paced, but Metal Gear is an action game.

Even in those sections, the guards' rules were clearly defined, the objectives were clear, the controls were still sharp, etc., irrespective of where the camera was pointed.

As for the camera, I definitely feel it was the best choice for the game and SHOULD have been the type of camera used on PSP.

Yes, definitely. Portable Ops would've been awesome with MGS2 camera.

 

[RedSwirl]

Can't agree with the MGS2 sentiment at all. The fixed camera is really necessary for such a closed-space game. If anything I think the free-cam movement has periodically hurt the MGS series - Peace Walker and P-Ops both suffer greatly from terrible camera controls and would have been much more easily handled with the traditional MGS1/2 angle locks.

(The great innovation of the MGS1/2 camera is that it was an exploitable system, as much as shadows or noises or hiding in a vent. Gameplay was sometimes literally looking for walls and angles where you could adjust the camera and find somebody hiding.)

I won't argue that MGS3, 4, and to some extent PW are best served by a free camera, but they are all built to be relatively free-roaming games in terms of their level design. Twin Snakes, by comparison, comes off really hollow in first person mode because you end up noticing how unimportant it was for the gameplay experience.

I'd say the real aging aspect of MGS2's design is not the camera, but the control scheme. It's perfectly functional, but the number of combos and context situations is really large compared to the average action game today. (I mean, you hold FPS mode, then hold the shoot button, then aim...) I have a lot of problems with PW's PSP controls but you can see the influence of MGS4 and recent design progress on how Snake moves and acts.

Anyway, is anyone playing a campaign of PS3 PW yet? Does it still do IP recruitment? (Actually, is the Transfarring version of PW available yet, even? I wonder how that works...)

Oh I agree that a new camera and controls would break MGS2, I'm just saying I can't deal with the end product here anymore.

Yes, definitely. Portable Ops would've been awesome with MGS2 camera.

They would've had to redesign the whole game in reverse, but perhaps the PSP games should have been of the older top-down variety due to the absence of the second analog stick.

 

[icespide]

Are you new to the series?

I always love reading newcomers impressions. Pre-MGS4 when Costanza did a playthrough of all the games, I used to scour the thread an pick apart his impressions. Its great to see the reactions.

not a new comer, I'm a veteran MGS freak. I just made a point to replay PSONE mgs1 before the hd collection was out

 

[Discotheque]

Man I love MGS2 soooo much. Raiden is a little bitch ass but playing as him was great because it made Snake out to be some kind of legendary character as you feel like you're on the outside looking in when you first run into him. The comraderie in that relationship was really cool, one of my favorite things about MGS2 (da best in the trilogy)

 

[Crazymoogle]

The controls were ridiculous, but I find that to be part of the games charm. Unlike more recent games, MGS2 just gives you this ridiculous amount of subtle control over everything you can do in the game. Many of the actions you perform in MGS2 would be handled by context sensitive button presses in a modern game while MGS2 forces you to manually perform each and every step of every action allowing you to modify the results to your liking.

Oh, I agree. At the time it was the perfect evolution of controls from MGS1 - you couldn't help but marvel at the improvement. But there was something for literally everything, which makes for a tangled web when, as you saw in a post above, somebody wanted to do a choke-hold and not a hip-toss. The system makes perfect sense in the grand scheme of things, but that complexity also makes it more difficult to learn as it's not user-obvious.

I'm not really saying either way is "right", though - one method means we literally need to use every button on a PS3-era controller. The other means we get contextual "press X to break door! press X to plant C4! press X to fight back!" Sometimes we need the simplicity, but there's a good argument for having a complex but consistent system too.

 

[Ridley327]

They would've had to redesign the whole game in reverse, but perhaps the PSP games should have been of the older top-down variety due to the absence of the second analog stick.

Peace Walker was a lot better than Portable Ops in that respect and the way the levels were designed in that one really couldn't be done with the overhead camera. Sure, the method of controlling said camera was not optimal, but they definitely applied everything they learned on MGS4 with that game, rather than the harebrained solution for Portable Ops.

Peace Walker is, for all intents and purposes, a do-over of Portable Ops.

 

[mattp]

did anyone notice the giant, high res picture of yumi kikuchi hanging inside snake's little aircraft thing at the beginning of operation snake eater?

 

[JohngPR]

Got a notice yesterday that my MGS HD LE is coming tomorrow!

I've been collecting MGS books for years now, so this will be a nice addition to my collection.

 

[revolverjgw]

MGS2's controls are convoluted but the caveat is that you can do a lot of actions in the game. I miss that kind of movement complexity in days when we have "Press X to win" games so rampant.

The only really novel action in MGS2 that I can think of is standing on your tippy toes. Everything else could be easily and intuitively done with a modern control scheme that makes sense.

I still love the game, but the controls just suck

 

[Discotheque]

Man I love MGS2 soooo much. Raiden is a little bitch ass but playing as him was great because it made Snake out to be some kind of legendary character as you feel like you're on the outside looking in when you first run into him. The comraderie in that relationship was really cool, one of my favorite things about MGS2 (da best in the trilogy)

further expanding on this I think it would be cool if some other games did this. Not too much because then the idea would be overdone but imagine if the new hitman or splinter cell had you mentored by an older agent47 or sam fisher?

 

[Lothars]

The only really novel action in MGS2 that I can think of is standing on your tippy toes. Everything else could be easily and intuitively done with a modern control scheme that makes sense.

I still love the game, but the controls just suck

I don't think the controls suck, I was playing last night on the 360 version and the controls are just fine, just takes some getting use to.

 

[Wario64]

did anyone notice the giant, high res picture of yumi kikuchi hanging inside snake's little aircraft thing at the beginning of operation snake eater?

Lol yes. Instantly thought of the TGS thread

 

[Ridley327]

Lol yes. Instantly thought of the TGS thread

HAI HAI HAI HAI HAI HAI HAI

To borrow from Super Troopers, she is a goddamn chatty Cathy.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

HAI HAI HAI HAI HAI HAI HAI

:lol that thread was magical.

 

[AgentOtaku]

Another thing I loved about MGS2 was the bit in the tanker when you were forced to have a shoot-out in subsection. Like the devs finally said, "alright now, you snuck around long enough, here's your reward!"

I fucking loved that sequence back then just because you could finally engage in some gunplay with zero consequence and it looked sooo amazing at the time with the lighting, 1st Person perspective, flashlights, and 60fps.

 

[Ridley327]

That, and you found out about the lethal applications of steam bursting out of a pipe!

 

[Anth0ny]

Is there any difference between the 360 LE and the PS3 LE? The PS3 LE is nowhere to be found in fucking all of Canada, might have to settle with the 360 version, despite my preference of the Dualshock for these games =(

 

[fuzzyreactor]

tempted to get this just for MGS2. Easily the best in the series. Does it still look beautiful?

 

[Digital-Hero]

tempted to get this just for MGS2. Easily the best in the series. Does it still look beautiful?

In some ways yes.

 

[Big Papa Husker]

Anyone know whats up with Amazon? I ordered with 1 day shipping and it says that I should be getting it tomorrow, but it still hasn't shipped. WTF?

 

[Lothars]

Is there any difference between the 360 LE and the PS3 LE? The PS3 LE is nowhere to be found in fucking all of Canada, might have to settle with the 360 version, despite my preference of the Dualshock for these games =(

Not that I saw, the only difference is the system but the Art Book I believe is identical.

 

[The Lamp]

That should be for both versions. The only differences between the LE and standard are the larger box with alternate art and the artbook. Based on images people posted of the LE, the game itself is identical to the standard release.

So in other words this collection has every MGS game one should own/play besides MGS4, MGS1, and Portable Ops.

Getting this for Christmas then! (Even though I have the PS2/PS1 MGS Collection they released a few years ago).

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

So in other words this collection has every MGS game one should own/play besides MGS4, MGS1, and Portable Ops.

Getting this for Christmas then! (Even though I have the PS2/PS1 MGS Collection they released a few years ago).

Well, even as a Metal Gear whore, I'd insist that you shouldn't play Portable Ops. If you've gotta play a portable Metal Gear, make it Ghost Babel.

And for the person asking about MGS 2 still being pretty, it is. The clinical art style is even more striking now thanks to how sharp the game looks in HD.

 

[Ridley327]

Anyone know whats up with Amazon? I ordered with 1 day shipping and it says that I should be getting it tomorrow, but it still hasn't shipped. WTF?

I wish I knew the answer to this as well.

 

[Mr.Fresh]

Played the 1st 12 missions on Peace walker in Coop and all i cane say is WOW! The online really makes Peace Walker shine. I liked it on PSP but now its one of my fav games ever.

 

[ctrayne]

And for the person asking about MGS 2 still being pretty, it is. The clinical art style is even more striking now thanks to how sharp the game looks in HD.

I booted up the PC version last night (1080p with some tweaks) and it looks marvelous for a game from 2001.

 

[Salaadin]

I ordered with 1 day from amazon and I got it yesterday even though it was slated for 11/10. It shipped Monday afternoon.

Maybe they have short supply so theyre shipping in the order that they were received. When did you guys order it?
I did on 9/30 maybe a few hours after Warios post about it.

 

[Ridley327]

I ordered with 1 day from amazon and I got it yesterday even though it was slated for 11/10. It shipped Monday afternoon.

Maybe they have short supply so theyre shipping in the order that they were received. When did you guys order it?
I did on 9/30 maybe a few hours after Warios post about it.

I ordered it on Halloween, but if that's the case, then they should be letting people know about stock issues. Don't tell me it's being delivered tomorrow when there's absolutely no indication that it will be.