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[Neiteio]

I'm still really not seeing this whole: "the medic gets softer" thing. I mean, if his character development was supposed to be him realizing the folly of revenge and becoming a better person or whatever, why is he so on board with Big Boss' plan at the end? I mean, the guy has clearly continued to do some heinous shit, and he seems giddy about the prospect of fulfilling his role.

I don't think the Paz tapes are supposed to be anything more than him coming to terms with his failure in GZ. The only other real evidence for his "change in heart" is the Huey stuff, and it seems far more likely that he spared Huey because Huey has plot armor.

Ha! Well, Venom doesn't know Huey has "plot armor."

Venom says they shouldn't judge their enemies. This is after he judged Skull Face, after he and Kaz killed Skull Face, and after he sees Skull Face still haunting him, showing it brought him no relief. It's also around this time that Paz (in actuality his heart) tells him that killing his enemies won't bring back the dead and it won't fix anything. So for him to spare Huey around this time, seeing no point in adding another body to the pile, shows a growing trend toward mercy.

And he always seemed like a softie, even when he went along with Kaz's quest for revenge. This is a guy who spared Quiet, forgave her and trusted her despite her attempts on his life. (Cynically, we can say, "Because she's hot," but I see it as empathy!)

 

[matrix-cat]

Handcuffs? Escape artist, I guess. Bars in her cell? Well, Ocelot has a whole tape about how he relaxed security and reduced the lock on her cell to see if she'd try to escape. This was when they were still testing her, to see if they can trust her. So she starts getting out more and more, but they're trusting her more at that point, so it's no biggie. (Although I sure as hell wouldn't be comfortable with my would-be assassin walking about!)

It has to be something more than that. In this cutscene she does a little flash of whatever her magical parasite power is and just slips the cuffs off, easy as you like. She can't just be turning invisible; handcuffs don't care if the hands they're cuffed to are visible or not

They released this cutscene as a trailer before the game was out and I always figured she had some kind of molecular disintegration power or something. Then the game comes out and this is pretty much the only time she ever does this.

 

[Berserker976]

Ha! Well, Venom doesn't know Huey has "plot armor."

Venom says they shouldn't judge their enemies. This is after he judged Skull Face, after he and Kaz killed Skull Face, and after he sees Skull Face still haunting him, showing it brought him no relief. It's also around this time that Paz (in actuality his heart) tells him that killing his enemies won't bring back the dead and it won't fix anything. So for him to spare Huey around this time, seeing no point in adding another body to the pile, shows a growing trend toward mercy.

And he always seemed like a softie, even when he went along with Kaz's quest for revenge. This is a guy who spared Quiet, forgave her and trusted her despite her attempts on his life. (Cynically, we can say, "Because she's hot," but I see it as empathy!)

Ok, but he spared Quiet long before he savagely mutilated Skull Face. And this still doesn't help explain where his character eventually end up: Completely complicit in Big Boss' plans.

 

[Mr Touchdown]

It has to be something more than that. In this cutscene she does a little flash of whatever her magical parasite power is and just slips the cuffs off, easy as you like. She can't just be turning invisible; handcuffs don't care if the hands they're cuffed to are visible or not

When her protective skin fades, her remaining body is smaller than the cuffs? That's what I always thought.

 

[Neiteio]

Ok, but he spared Quiet long before he savagely mutilated Skull Face. And this still doesn't help explain where his character eventually end up: Completely complicit in Big Boss' plans.

Can you elaborate on how forgiving BB (in the present, at least) goes against Venom being a merciful person by the end of the game? And regarding Quiet, my point was while he was still growing in this regard (the lack of fulfillment from Skull Face changes him, obviously), he was still a softer person from the start.

 

[Blackthorn]

Isn't it possible to kill Quiet in the game? Skull face too? Apart from Huey, you could play this game as a merciless demon if you wanted, so people saying how much of a good guy Venom is really comes down to most of us playing him that way.

I think that agency is why Venom was created as a character. Big Boss wouldn't be able to have any flexibility, canon wise. Unfortunately it also makes MGSV more inconsequential than the other games in the wider lore, but more personal for the player within its own confines.

 

[Neiteio]

Isn't it possible to kill Quiet in the game? Skull face too? Apart from Huey, you could play this game as a merciless demon if you wanted, so people saying how much of a good guy Venom is really comes down to most of us playing him that way.

I think that agency is why Venom was created as a character. Big Boss wouldn't be able to have any flexibility, canon wise. Unfortunately it also makes MGSV more inconsequential than the other games in the wider lore, but more personal for the player within its own confines.

I think the agency just slows down the mercy arc, if you play it not mercifully, but it doesn't change it since the second half of the game is fixed in terms of decisions. Remember, Paz (scenes #2 and #3, plus tape #5) are exclusive to Ch. 2, Huey's trial and exile is in Ch. 2, etc., and all of that comes after Quiet and Skull Face. So regardless of how you handled Quiet and Skull Face, Venom still grows after the fact. And the two ghosts that appear before him (Skull Face and Paz) support the idea he's learning that revenge is no good. It's subtle but it's there.

 

[valkyre]

The gamingbolt explanation link that has been circulating a lot in this thread, while it is a great writeup as a whole, I believe that has the whole MG1 events thing wrong.

I do not interpret the Intrude Mission real BB gives to Venom as a mission for the latter to perish in the hands of SS. It doesnt add up, and it is quite leaving a number of plotholes open.

I believe BB who was working with Venom at all times, sent him the Intrude Mission for him to prepare adequately, and use SS to spread wrong information about Outer Heaven, thus keeping the entire thing out of anyone's interest.

Problem was SS was better than BB anticipated and while he tried at the end to sabbotage SS's mission, eventually SS killed Venom.

 

[Neiteio]

You guys see this music video? The song was inspired by MGSV. Guy appears to be a one-man band, and his work here is excellent.

 

[Blackthorn]

I think the agency just slows down the mercy arc, if you play it not mercifully, but it doesn't change it since the second half of the game is fixed in terms of decisions. Remember, Paz (scenes #2 and #3, plus tape #5) are exclusive to Ch. 2, Huey's trial and exile is in Ch. 2, etc., and all of that comes after Quiet and Skull Face. So regardless of how you handled Quiet and Skull Face, Venom still grows after the fact. And the two ghosts that appear before him (Skull Face and Paz) support the idea he's learning that revenge is no good. It's subtle but it's there.

Good points.

I guess those scenes serve as the lesson for Venom, but the ability to still become a demon after that point means the player can still choose whether or not to take that lesson on board.

Whether or not you develop a nuke is the final lingering question Kaz leaves you with, and doing so hugely increases your demon points (I think over the threshold for the the most demonic appearance Venom).

So the player can either ignore the ghosts of Venom's past and continue the cycle of revenge, becoming a demon, or resist the temptation of building the nuke and break the cycle.

 

[Neiteio]

Good points.

I guess those scenes serve as the lesson for Venom, but the ability to still become a demon after that point means the player can still choose whether or not to take that lesson on board.

Whether or not you develop a nuke is the final lingering question Kaz leaves you with, and doing so hugely increases your demon points (I think over the threshold for the the most demonic appearance Venom).

So the player can either ignore the ghosts of Venom's past and continue the cycle of revenge, becoming a demon, or resist the temptation of building the nuke and break the cycle.

Beautifully put.

Also, there's that cutscene people have unearthed in the files where Venom and company are disarming the world's nukes. It's speculated that we'll only see it if most (or all) players disarm their nukes. It may very well go along with the "Ch. 3 - Peace" title card that was also found in the game files.

If that's the case, then it goes perfectly with your take (and mine) that there's room for agency in whether the player allows Venom to "learn from the ghosts of his past," as you put it.

 

[Moon_frogger]

Ok, but he spared Quiet long before he savagely mutilated Skull Face. And this still doesn't help explain where his character eventually end up: Completely complicit in Big Boss' plans.

Quiet didn't rape and mutilate children. How is his treatment of skull face vs quiet puzzling to anybody? Skull face needed to be punished.
He got off easily.

 

[Neiteio]

Quiet didn't rape and mutilate children. How is his treatment of skull face vs quiet puzzling to anybody? Skull face needed to be punished.
He got off easily.

From a story standpoint, Skull Face needed to die in order for Venom to start thinking about the folly of revenge and the value of mercy.

The way Venom is by the end of the game, I don't think he'd kill Skull Face. But he had to kill Skull Face in order to reach the point where he realized killing his enemies isn't good.

Therein lies the rub.

 

[Berserker976]

Can you elaborate on how forgiving BB (in the present, at least) goes against Venom being a merciful person by the end of the game? And regarding Quiet, my point was while he was still growing in this regard (the lack of fulfillment from Skull Face changes him, obviously), he was still a softer person from the start.

It's not about him forgiving Big Boss, it's about him becoming Big Boss, and all that that entails. You can't be a mercenary warlord obsessed with perpetuating war and have a good heart. At the end of the game, Venom is just as much a bad guy as BB himself. This completely breaks his alleged character arc.

Edit: Also, isn't it implied in mission 51 that he carpet bombed an island full of children infected with the English strain of the vocal cord parasite?

 

[Neiteio]

It's not about him forgiving Big Boss, it's about him becoming Big Boss, and all that that entails. You can't be a mercenary warlord obsessed with perpetuating war and have a good heart. At the end of the game, Venom is just as much a bad guy as BB himself. This completely breaks his alleged character arc.

That's the thing he couldn't shake. He shows more and more mercy to individuals, but he still believes that a safe haven for soldiers is a cause worth pursuing, and that ultimately involves repelling the governments that come for him. He probably sees it as self-defense.

Someone refresh me, did Outer Heaven actually instigate anything with its nukes, or was it merely harboring them that was a concern?

Edit: Also, isn't it implied in mission 51 that he carpet bombed an island full of children infected with the English strain of the vocal cord parasite?

I think this moral ambiguity falls along the same lines of M43. Did you see his handling of the pandemic at Mother Base as merciful and/or for the greater good? Or did you see it as evil and cruel? (Not implying there's a right or wrong answer -- it's an honest question)

 

[Moronwind]

Edit: Also, isn't it implied in mission 51 that he carpet bombed an island full of children infected with the English strain of the vocal cord parasite?

They were willing to rescue Eli until they discovered he had symptoms, so who knows about the other kids.

 

[Berserker976]

I think this moral ambiguity falls along the same lines of M43. Did you see his handling of the pandemic at Mother Base as merciful and/or for the greater good? Or did you see it as evil and cruel? (Not implying there's a right or wrong answer -- it's an honest question)

Personally, I'm still torn on this. Because it's presented in the game as something that absolutely had to be done, but I don't think the way Venom handles it is necessarily the only option. I mean, the danger in that mission was that the birds were going to spread the disease by feeding on the infected, so instead of killing all the infected couldn't they have just shot/blown up all the birds that were circling the place. It would have at least bought them some time.

If you are to take the game at face value though, then obviously it was the right thing to do, since the game presents no other option.

 

[Neiteio]

They were willing to rescue Eli until they discovered he had symptoms, so who knows about the other kids.

Venom even freaks out when he thinks he shot Eli. Despite the fact that Eli just tried to kill him. Again. It's only when he learns Eli has the parasites that he leaves him to his fate. He gives Eli a gun to take his own life, if he wishes. But they need to wipe the area clean in order to make sure the parasites don't spread and destroy civilization.

I think, given the circumstances, it was understandable.

 

[Neiteio]

Personally, I'm still torn on this. Because it's presented in the game as something that absolutely had to be done, but I don't think the way Venom handles it is necessarily the only option. I mean, the danger in that mission was that the birds were going to spread the disease by feeding on the infected, so instead of killing all the infected couldn't they have just shot/blown up all the birds that were circling the place. It would have at least bought them some time.

If you are to take the game at face value though, then obviously it was the right thing to do, since the game presents no other option.

Yeah, it's hard to say. Definitely no easy answers.

 

[Berserker976]

Honestly, the problem I have with Venom is that there's too little character there to reliably extrapolate anything of value. I think all of these ideas about his motives and feelings are interesting, but the game just doesn't have enough "stuff" in it to call any of these theories probable.

 

[Neiteio]

Honestly, the problem I have with Venom is that there's too little character there to reliably extrapolate anything of value. I think all of these ideas about his motives and feelings are interesting, but the game just doesn't have enough "stuff" in it to call any of these theories probable.

I think we might just be used to the way MGS usually handles characterization, which is to have characters monologue endlessly about their changing feelings to the point we can't possibly -not- see it.

But if we divorce ourselves from the hours and hours and hours of gameplay between each story point, and just look at the story points themselves, it's a series of dots -- simple but real -- that connect. It just feels "sparse" in comparison to the enormity of the game as a whole.

I like what we got in terms of Venom's development, so of course I'd like more "exhibits," but it's an arc all the same. Probably would've benefitted in the context of a story that completes itself more quickly.

 

[Stereogatari]

Because it makes the entire game a pointless diversion.

It's not pointless for the real Big Boss.

 

[Neiteio]

It's not pointless for the real Big Boss.

Exactly. Even though BB is largely absent, the consequences of his actions are not, and they reframe our view of him such that it's believable he could be the hypocrite he is in MG2.

 

[Berserker976]

I think we might just be used to the way MGS usually handles characterization, which is to have characters monologue endlessly about their changing feelings to the point we can't possibly -not- see it.

But if we divorce ourselves from the hours and hours and hours of gameplay between each story point, and just look at the story points themselves, it's a series of dots -- simple but real -- that connect. It just feels "sparse" in comparison to the enormity of the game as a whole.

I like what we got in terms of Venom's development, so of course I'd like more "exhibits," but it's an arc all the same. Probably would've benefitted in the context of a story that completes itself more quickly.

I really have to disagree. MGSV is sparse by any standard, it just sticks out even more since it's part of the MGS series. I had multiple people who aren't into video games walk by during cutscenes in MGSV and wonder why the guy with the eye patch wasn't saying anything.

The amount of dialogue and development is low by general media standards, not just Metal Gear standards.

Also, you can make a whole lot of different pictures when you're only given four dots.

 

[Chariot]

There it is. Metal Gear Pachinko. Every dream is dead.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1120428

 

[Neiteio]

I really have to disagree. MGSV is sparse by any standard, it just sticks out even more since it's part of the MGS series. I had multiple people who aren't into video games walk by during cutscenes in MGSV and wonder why the guy with the eye patch wasn't saying anything.

The amount of dialogue and development is low by general media standards, not just Metal Gear standards.

Also, you can make a whole lot of different pictures when you're only given four dots.

I think there's plenty when you look at what Venom does and doesn't do. He doesn't need to talk with words to say a lot with his actions. Even simple contrasts like killing his comrades and agonizing over it afterwards vs. sparing his enemies after being haunted by their phantoms can show the changing tides in his heart.

But we can agree to disagree. I think we've discussed this enough to appreciate each other's viewpoints, even if we don't share them. I always enjoy hearing your thoughts.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I really have to disagree. MGSV is sparse by any standard, it just sticks out even more since it's part of the MGS series. I had multiple people who aren't into video games walk by during cutscenes in MGSV and wonder why the guy with the eye patch wasn't saying anything.

The amount of dialogue and development is low by general media standards, not just Metal Gear standards.

Also, you can make a whole lot of different pictures when you're only given four dots.

I guess that is part of Kojima's new 'Show don't tell' approach to story telling. No bad thing. I noticed it because of the lack of ostensible character moments like in past games (Raiden breaking down to Rose, Meryl opening up to Snake etc.), but I think it's just a lot more subtle than before. Kaz is a great example of this, I think. His transformation from sleazy (PW) to angry (TPP - Chapter 1) to complete paranoiac (TPP - Chapter 2) was pretty interesting to watch.

 

[Hypron]

Damn...

After feeling happy about finishing the game earlier tonight...

Now it's starting to sink in that this is the final Metal Gear game.

There ain't gonna be another one.

Shit

It's that same feeling you have when you've been binge watching a TV series/anime for a few weeks and it ends. Except here it's a huge series that spans tons of games. I spent like 4 months playing through it this year.

I'm not sure if it's better or worse for people who's been playing the games as they released. But still :/

 

[Berserker976]

I think there's plenty when you look at what Venom does and doesn't do. He doesn't need to talk with words to say a lot with his actions. Even simple contrasts like killing his comrades and agonizing over it afterwards vs. sparing his enemies after being haunted by their phantoms can show the changing tides in his heart.

But we can agree to disagree. I think we've discussed this enough to appreciate each other's viewpoints, even if we don't share them. I always enjoy hearing your thoughts.

Sure thing! I may kind of hate this game and what it did to this series, but there's something undeniably comforting to me about hearing someone defend a Metal Gear game's plot.

That said, how to you reconcile Venom's actions towards Quiet in chapter 2? I'm basing this on how these scenes triggered in my game, but it seems super weird that right after the rain cutscene that showed Venom and Quiet growing closer, I almost immediately got the cutscene where Venom is overseeing Quiet's torture via electrocution, and apparently not giving a shit.

These are the kinds of contradictions that make it hard for me to latch on to a coherent character theory of Venom Snake. When he goes to rescue Quiet, is he doing it because he cares for her and that's overriding his sense of self-preservation and safety, or is he doing it because Ocelot convinced him that Quiet is extremely loyal, and she's a useful asset? The fact that those two previous cutscenes exist muddies the waters to the extent that both are equally viable interpretations. The problem is that they have wildly different implications for who Venom is as a character.

 

[Forkball]

BBC: Nobel Prize for parasitic disease discoveries.

 

[Hypron]

BBC: Nobel Prize for parasitic disease discoveries.

Good to see the Wolbachia getting some use.

 

[Roni]

Its a basic plot point of MG 2.

I'm not questioning the retirement, I'm challenging the notion he retired immediately after Outer Heaven. That's never said anywhere.

well the way you're phrasing implies that you don't think it happens. and in the wiki there's actually quite a lot of info on him between mg1 and 2. So unless that info comes from a non canon source there's no reason to not believe it.

Cool, but do you have any evidence pertaining to my actual point? 'Cause I've already explained I'm not challenging his retirement, but when it happens.

 

[Broken Joystick]

BBC: Nobel Prize for parasitic disease discoveries.

BBC
Big Boss Central.

 

[Neiteio]

Sure thing! I may kind of hate this game and what it did to this series, but there's something undeniably comforting to me about hearing someone defend a Metal Gear game's plot.

That said, how to you reconcile Venom's actions towards Quiet in chapter 2? I'm basing this on how these scenes triggered in my game, but it seems super weird that right after the rain cutscene that showed Venom and Quiet growing closer, I almost immediately got the cutscene where Venom is overseeing Quiet's torture via electrocution, and apparently not giving a shit.

These are the kinds of contradictions that make it hard for me to latch on to a coherent character theory of Venom Snake. When he goes to rescue Quiet, is he doing it because he cares for her and that's overriding his sense of self-preservation and safety, or is he doing it because Ocelot convinced him that Quiet is extremely loyal, and she's a useful asset? The fact that those two previous cutscenes exist muddies the waters to the extent that both are equally viable interpretations. The problem is that they have wildly different implications for who Venom is as a character.

Interesting to hear you got the interrogation right after the rain scene. I got the rain scene like immediately at the start of Ch. 2, and the interrogation some time later, IIRC.

This is just my interpretation, and I totally understand if you don't find it satisfying, but this is the way I intuitively read the interrogation scene:

I've shared examples before of how Venom is a "passive" personality compared to BB, and part of this is submitting to stronger personalities in the room. His sub-commanders are assertive and convinced him interrogation was necessary for the greater good of the base. So much like how he put down his own men during the pandemic, also for the greater good, he allowed Quiet to be tortured. But there's a moment when Ocelot says "she's in love with the legend" and Quiet and BB exchange looks. This is in the interpretive part, but I didn't sense Quiet begrudging BB. I think she implicitly understood why he was allowing this to happen and wasn't holding it against him. The unspoken language they share, etc.

But that was just my take in the moment.

 

[Neiteio]

Also, to go with my above post, I just want to say that I, myself, never approve of torture. But I think I understand where they were coming from in that situation.

 

[SomTervo]

I would argue if your remove Quiet from the story it actually affects almost nothing.

People need to stop using this argument. Plot is not paramount to any story, ever.

You could argue that if Shakespeare removed Mercutio from Romeo and Juliet it would affect almost nothing.

That doesn't stop him being 100% valid and important in the story. Story is more than plot.

 

[Berserker976]

I've shared examples before of how Venom is a "passive" personality compared to BB, and part of this is submitting to stronger personalities in the room. His sub-commanders are assertive and convinced him interrogation was necessary for the greater good of the base. So much like how he put down his own men during the pandemic, also for the greater good, he allowed Quiet to be tortured. But there's a moment when Ocelot says "she's in love with the legend" and Quiet and BB exchange looks. This is in the interpretive part, but I didn't sense Quiet begrudging BB. I think she implicitly understood why he was allowing this to happen and wasn't holding it against him. The unspoken language they share, etc.

But that was just my take in the moment.

Interesting, this interpretation could also turn Venom's sparing of Huey into a moment of character growth, when Venom finally gets the confidence to challenge Kaz directly, and start acting on his new-found goodness.

Agh! I hate this, because this is legitimately cool character stuff, but I still feel like the game works against itself with the ending. Venom being totally ok with the twist just seems to throw all that out the window. He (following the assumption that Venom is a character) goes through all this growth, and then it's all thrown out so he can fit into the greater plot.

 

[SomTervo]

Sure thing! I may kind of hate this game and what it did to this series, but there's something undeniably comforting to me about hearing someone defend a Metal Gear game's plot.

That said, how to you reconcile Venom's actions towards Quiet in chapter 2? I'm basing this on how these scenes triggered in my game, but it seems super weird that right after the rain cutscene that showed Venom and Quiet growing closer, I almost immediately got the cutscene where Venom is overseeing Quiet's torture via electrocution, and apparently not giving a shit.

These are the kinds of contradictions that make it hard for me to latch on to a coherent character theory of Venom Snake. When he goes to rescue Quiet, is he doing it because he cares for her and that's overriding his sense of self-preservation and safety, or is he doing it because Ocelot convinced him that Quiet is extremely loyal, and she's a useful asset? The fact that those two previous cutscenes exist muddies the waters to the extent that both are equally viable interpretations. The problem is that they have wildly different implications for who Venom is as a character.

A lot of people probably hate this reading, but I think Kojima wrote Venom perfectly to justify contradictions like this.

> spends years becoming near-best soldier in a PMC
> sacrifices self to save his boss (/Boss)
> for 9 years is hypnotised and psychologically manipulated into having the experiences/memories/thoughts of someone else
> wakes up with a different face
> subconsciously knows something is wrong, that he's not who/what he should be or doing what he should be doing. Is constantly internally at war with himself
> ultimately finds out Zero/BB's plan (end of Truth)

I see his silence, his mixed or apathetic responses and behaviours, as a person who is basically fucked up. You can tell he doesn't quite know how to behave, or can't reconcile what he should or shouldn't do in each situation. The only things he shows conviction about are things which are introduced throughout MGSV itself.

[Edit: Neietro's justification of Venom passing off responsibility to others nearby is really clever and I like that, too. He still has this subconscious training going on all the time - to defer to superiors, etc, but is ostensibly the 'Boss', so is constantly at war with himself. It really shows in how he's written. (Or how he's "not" written.)]

Interesting, this interpretation could also turn Venom's sparing of Huey into a moment of character growth, when Venom finally gets the confidence to challenge Kaz directly, and start acting on his new-found goodness.

Agh! I hate this, because this is legitimately cool character stuff, but I still feel like the game works against itself with the ending. Venom being totally ok with the twist just seems to throw all that out the window. He (following the assumption that Venom is a character) goes through all this growth, and then it's all thrown out so he can fit into the greater plot.

Remember he's not okay with the twist in the end.

When we see him at the mirror at the end of Truth, listening to the From The Man Who Sold The World tape, he smirks because he sees BB's overarching plan and that he has worked in partner with BB on it. He's happy. Then he turns the tape over and we see the Intrude tape, with Outer Heaven in the background, there's a 10 year time skip, and he is not happy about how BB abused and manipulated him. He's not happy that ultimately he was a pawn in BB's plan and how he will die at the hands of Solid Snake. Sold down the river by BB in the end, he punches the mirror in rage and turns to meet his fate.

 

[valkyre]

Guys in mission 9 backup back down, do any of the prisoners get killed if you take too long?

My strategy is to shoot all tanks and upcoming reinforcements and then bide my time with all prisoners. Will it work, or are they eventually killed if you take too long to reach them?

 

[Springfoot]

The amount of dialogue and development is low by general media standards, not just Metal Gear standards.

Also, you can make a whole lot of different pictures when you're only given four dots.

Yes, and it's basically the result of the gameplay options getting in the way of the story in a manner that's especially bizarre for a Metal Gear game. The bulk of those 'silent thousand yard stare' Big Boss cut scenes are ones that allow for your alternate player-character soldiers to be swapped in. Rather than write and record extra dialog for three voice actors (BBoss, generic male, generic female), they opted to do nothing so we're left with this weird, mute meat puppet shuffling about.

I think the agency just slows down the mercy arc...

There isn't a mercy arc. The player gets to choose whether to save or kill Quiet, Paz is hidden away and optional as well, at the very least he dismembers Skullface out of revenge (at this point we're 4/5 of the way through story missions, so if there's an arc, it should have started much earlier), and then chooses to save Huey because retconning that would require more clones or hypnotized facial transplants than even Kojima could stomach.

I'm really not seeing the overarching shift from violence to compassion in his limited characterization - that reading comes off as gross extrapolation considering we only have a half dozen scenes to work with (possibly fewer depending on player actions). Venom still barely speaks or emotes in those few scenes, and the final scene we get shows a flash forward to a Venom that has transformed into a bloody large-horned 'demon' before cutting back to the smokey shot the present version of him that the player continues playing as in the open world/mission replays.

It's pretty blatant that the game tells us "Hey, in the future right around the time of MG1, this guy has gone entirely over to the dark side and there's nothing you, the player, can do to change that" - it's simply what his character becomes regardless of your actions.

We can read and infer stuff into his character all day long because he's such a blank slate/sock puppet, but the few scenes we get that aren't player choice driven make it clear that he shifts from being sort of okay for a lawless merc to being pretty evil.

 

[valkyre]

When we see him at the mirror at the end of Truth, listening to the From The Man Who Sold The World tape, he smirks because he sees BB's overarching plan and that he has worked in partner with BB on it. He's happy. Then he turns the tape over and we see the Intrude tape, with Outer Heaven in the background, there's a 10 year time skip, and he is not happy about how BB abused and manipulated him. He's not happy that ultimately he was a pawn in BB's plan and how he will die at the hands of Solid Snake. Sold down the river by BB in the end, he punches the mirror in rage and turns to meet his fate.

This is a popular opinion lately and I disagree with the notion that Venom is angry at how BB manipulated him and yet he is just willing to go die for him no matter what. Doesnt make sense. If you are angry at someone who manipulated you, you dont just put your tail between the legs and go jump a cliff as they asked you to do.

So, in my opinion and as it is expressed at MG Wiki, BB and Venom work together, BB uses Gray Fox and then SS to just try and spread misinformation to U.S. about the existence of Metal Gear in Outer Heaven, thus hoping US will stop being interested at what is going on over there and leave them be.

BB sends Venom the tape, informing him about the mission so that he prepares adequately, just like he did for Gray Fox. Problem is SS is better than what BB and Venom anticipated, resulting in the death of Venom.

 

[Berserker976]

Remember he's not okay with the twist in the end.

When we see him at the mirror at the end of Truth, listening to the From The Man Who Sold The World tape, he smirks because he sees BB's overarching plan and that he has worked in partner with BB on it. He's happy. Then he turns the tape over and we see the Intrude tape, with Outer Heaven in the background, there's a 10 year time skip, and he is not happy about how BB abused and manipulated him. He's not happy that ultimately he was a pawn in BB's plan and how he will die at the hands of Solid Snake. Sold down the river by BB in the end, he punches the mirror in rage and turns to meet his fate.

I've mentioned this before, but I think it's more than likely that Venom doesn't punch the mirror because he's angry at Big Boss.

When Venom looks into the mirror, we see reflected all the different incarnations of "medic boss" from the hospital to current day. Then, Venom punches the mirror, shattering his past self, rejecting fully his medic persona, and all that's left is Big Boss. He didn't punch it because he was angry with Big Boss, he punched it because he became Big Boss. By shattering the representation of his medic self, he's simultaneously rejecting his "player" self, since that's the point at which he goes off to act as the villain in MG1.

 

[SomTervo]

oh shit, double post

 

[SomTervo]

This is a popular opinion lately and I disagree with the notion that Venom is angry at how BB manipulated him and yet he is just willing to go die for him no matter what. Doesnt make sense. If you are angry at someone who manipulated you, you dont just put your tail between the legs and go jump a cliff as they asked you to do.

Ah, that's not what's happening though. He's not saying "Fuck you Big Boss, but fine I'll do what you want and fight Solid Snake."

He literally can't escape. Solid Snake is about to kill him; he's cornered. He's covered in blood and there's sounds of a massacre – Solid Snake is already killing fucking everything and has basically beaten him by the time he listens to Intrude.

He's saying "Fuck you Big Boss, you sent Solid Snake to kill me, and now I'm stuck here with no way out and Solid Snake right outside. You sold me down the river." *punches mirror*

I've mentioned this before, but I think it's more than likely that Venom doesn't punch the mirror because he's angry at Big Boss.

When Venom looks into the mirror, we see reflected all the different incarnations of "medic boss" from the hospital to current day. Then, Venom punches the mirror, shattering his past self, rejecting fully his medic persona, and all that's left is Big Boss. He didn't punch it because he was angry with Big Boss, he punched it because he became Big Boss. By shattering the representation of his medic self, he's simultaneously rejecting his "player" self, since that's the point at which he goes off to act as the villain in MG1.

That's good, too. I do like this. I'm broadly sticking with the 'angry at BB' reading, though, because it ties to "BB is a true demon now" theory (as above):

Listening to the Intrude tape, Venom realises that Solid Snake is going to kill him, and there's no escape (he's already covered in blood so obviously knows he's probably going to lose), and that ultimately BB has used him as a pawn. Yes, they shared the work and build a dream fortress together, but ultimately he's still just a pawn.

This also ties to Big Boss manipulating people just like Zero et al have since the start - hence it gives the "Big Boss has become a demon" thread full closure. Big Boss has fully become what he apparently was fighting against since the start - using people's entire lives to fulfil his own ends. Only Solid Snake really achieves the autonomy Big Boss wanted by the end of MGS4 and Big Boss lauds him for it, wrapping the whole series up.

Yes, and it's basically the result of the gameplay options getting in the way of the story in a manner that's especially bizarre for a Metal Gear game.

I don't disagree with your post as a whole, but I personally think it's a very good thing that Kojima shifted the focus so drastically on this game. In a way it is definitely a slap in the face of long-time players though.Regardless, see the discussion above with Neieto, Berserker and myself re the story. I think he did a pretty good - if ridiculously subtle - job with MGSV's story.

Pure hypotheticals here, but imagine if Kojima had taken the MGSV gameplay:story focus ratio since the very first one? We wouldn't be complaining about any of this. The story thread would probably still be at 1.

 

[Berserker976]

Ah, that's not what's happening though. He's not saying "Fuck you Big Boss, but fine I'll do what you want and fight Solid Snake."

He literally can't escape. Solid Snake is about to kill him; he's cornered. He's covered in blood and there's sounds of a massacre – Solid Snake is already killing fucking everything and has basically beaten him by the time he listens to Intrude.

He's saying "Fuck you Big Boss, you sent Solid Snake to kill me, and now I'm stuck here with no way out and Solid Snake right outside. You sold me down the river." *punches mirror*

This take is interesting, but I don't think it's supported by the lore. BB sent in SS thinking he would fail. When it becomes clear he has a chance of winning, the real BB even starts giving him bad advice over the codec.

And if Venom really was cornered and cursing Big Boss because he'd been sent to die, why did he still pretend to be the real Big Boss when Solid Snake reached him?

I think it makes way more sense if Venom was totally on board and thought he was going to win right up til Solid Snake blew him up with an RPG.

 

[SomTervo]

This take is interesting, but I don't think it's supported by the lore. BB sent in SS thinking he would fail. When it becomes clear he has a chance of winning, the real BB even starts giving him bad advice over the codec.

And if Venom really was cornered and cursing Big Boss because he'd been sent to die, why did he still pretend to be the real Big Boss when Solid Snake reached him?

I think it makes way more sense if Venom was totally on board and thought he was going to win right up til Solid Snake blew him up with an RPG.

Yeah, at this point it gets too confusing for me to argue well about this. And I haven't played MG1/2 for more than 10 years, so I struggle to remember the end-game details. True about BB sending SS to his death.

The reading I heard was that when Solid starts getting bad advice over CODEC it's actually Venom Snake messaging him, trying to throw him off.

It does make sense, what you say, but why does Venom look angry and punch the mirror at the end of Truth? I love the thing about fragmenting into all the different Big Bosses, but that's thematic/symbolic more than plot-related. In terms of plot, why does he do it? The only justification I can see is that he feels ultimately betrayed by BB.

 

[Johndoey]

These are the emotions Kojima wanted you to have. You are feeling the Phantom Pain.

But whats the emotion where I don't care about any of the goings on and sell the game so I can buy Soma, is that also phantom pain?

People need to stop using this argument. Plot is not paramount to any story, ever.

You could argue that if Shakespeare removed Mercutio from Romeo and Juliet it would affect almost nothing.

That doesn't stop him being 100% valid and important in the story. Story is more than plot.

Allow to rephrase Quiet don't matter for a goddamn motherfucking thing, was I clear enough this time?

 

[Roni]

Yeah, at this point it gets too confusing for me to argue well about this. And I haven't played MG1/2 for more than 10 years, so I struggle to remember the end-game details. True about BB sending SS to his death.

The reading I heard was that when Solid starts getting bad advice over CODEC it's actually Venom Snake messaging him, trying to throw him off.

It does make sense, what you say, but why does Venom look angry and punch the mirror at the end of Truth? I love the thing about fragmenting into all the different Big Bosses, but that's thematic/symbolic more than plot-related. In terms of plot, why does he do it? The only justification I can see is that he feels ultimately betrayed by BB.

Have you considered that Venom may be shedding the last of his consciousness, the one that subconsciously made him feel out of place and - for my money - made him see himself as a demon for what he was doing? When he looks at the mirror before punching it, he looks confident.

When he punches the mirror, the last piece of his old identity dies and he stops seeing himself as a demon. He's just Big Boss.

He is justified.

But whats the emotion where I don't care about any of the goings on and sell the game so I can buy Soma, is that also phantom pain?

That's just not caring and it's completely fine. A percentage of the audience is never pleased. Too bad the game's themes and metaphors didn't resonate with you.

Perhaps SOMA will fill that void.

 

[Screaming Meat]

A lot of people probably hate this reading, but I think Kojima wrote Venom perfectly to justify contradictions like this.

> spends years becoming near-best soldier in a PMC
> sacrifices self to save his boss (/Boss)
> for 9 years is hypnotised and psychologically manipulated into having the experiences/memories/thoughts of someone else
> wakes up with a different face
> subconsciously knows something is wrong, that he's not who/what he should be or doing what he should be doing. Is constantly internally at war with himself
> ultimately finds out Zero/BB's plan (end of Truth)

I see his silence, his mixed or apathetic responses and behaviours, as a person who is basically fucked up. You can tell he doesn't quite know how to behave, or can't reconcile what he should or shouldn't do in each situation. The only things he shows conviction about are things which are introduced throughout MGSV itself.

[Edit: Neietro's justification of Venom passing off responsibility to others nearby is really clever and I like that, too. He still has this subconscious training going on all the time - to defer to superiors, etc, but is ostensibly the 'Boss', so is constantly at war with himself. It really shows in how he's written. (Or how he's "not" written.)]

That's an interesting point. After rescuing Kaz, he even says to him "Tell me what to do".

Interestingly, the one time Venom/The Player actually gets to make a choice, where he isn't bound by fate or the Will of others, is when he's standing over Quiet.

Not sure what that implies yet. I need to have a think about it. MGSV royally screwed my mind XD

This take is interesting, but I don't think it's supported by the lore. BB sent in SS thinking he would fail. When it becomes clear he has a chance of winning, the real BB even starts giving him bad advice over the codec.

We don't know that now. The frequency changes when he gives bad advice, so there is a valid argument to be made that it is actually Venom trying to deter him (there is no way Kojima planned that, of course. It does fit though).

 

[Johndoey]

Have you considered that Venom may be shedding the last of his consciousness, the one that subconsciously made him feel out of place and - for my money - made him see himself as a demon for what he was doing. When he looks at the mirror before punching it, he looks confident.

When he punches the mirror, the last piece of his old identity dies and he stops seeing himself as a demon. He's just Big Boss.

He is justified.



That's just not caring and it's completely fine. A percentage of the audience is never pleased. Too bad the game's themes and metaphors didn't resonate with you.

Perhaps SOMA will fill that void.

But that is always the issue the themes did resonate with me, but the execution left me numb. The game has these great ideas and fumbles on executing every last one of them. By the end my feelings had congealed into this empty "what a damn waste" feeling.