Death Metalist
Member
Everybody seems to forgot that this ends around the time that BB comes back to the US government as the leader of foxhound. But, you're not alone in feeling this dude so don't worry.
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Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
- Start date
Everybody seems to forgot that this ends around the time that BB comes back to the US government as the leader of foxhound. But, you're not alone in feeling this dude so don't worry.
Haunted
Member
Yup!
I wonder if some of the confusion stems from the fact that some people just see credits starting to roll and shut down their PC/console.
Especially the end of chapter 1 is clearly marked as such.
Died in the helicopter crash in Ground Zeroes.
Haunted
Member
so now you're shooting logical holes into Kojima's writing
what's next
stealing candy from a baby
shooting fish in a barrel
making fun of creationists
youre a real tough guy aintcha
I wish rainbows would appear when I drink water through my boobs.
Yo breh I got some shit make you see rainbows allllllllllll day long, just step into the van bro.
bro
van
bro
do it
i love you
Haunted
Member
That's just chapter 1. Roughly 66% done in terms of the main story.
Roni
Gold Member
Might have to double check this, but were the Wolbachia a universal solution or were they specific to strains and took months to develop just like the strain?
*Neiteio wakes up from a drug-induced haze and realizes he's in bed with Johndoey and a llama*
What... what just happened?
This is amazing, hahafixed that for you.
Stereogatari
Banned
What I love is that we feel exactly the kind of victimhood that you would from a master of espionage.
I guess while MGS2's ending is definitely out there and raises tons of questions it actually makes sense as a literal series of events, or a narrative conclusion.
Raiden is slowly infiltrating the Big Shell until he gets to Arsenal Gear where he talks with Solidus, Solid, Ocelot
Etc. He then fights Solidus again on the Treasury building on Wall St before having a last talk with Solid Snake.
Nothing about the who, where or how of the ending is particularly hard to grasp, even if some of the things said are wacky or confusing. I understand the basic narrative.
Alternatively, the Phantom Pain's ending I don't understand at a basic narrative level. A mission unlocks that is a different version of the Prologue from the ACC. There is no narrative jusitification as to why that should happen, since Venom will not remember his true identity until 10 years after the game ends.
You then replay the first level, which again I stress cannot possibly be Venom himself remembering things because of the timeline, and also since it also shows stuff Venom was not present for.
It's capped off by a series of tapes called the "Truth". Now, whereas most tapes present themselves as debriefings or random conversations Venom overhears on Motherbase (except the Paz tapes I guess, but they still make sense as a manifestation of Venom's guilt) these are tapes that Venom gets from somewhere, that again he cannot actually have listened to since he doesn't have his identity revelation until 1995. There is no narrative explanation for them.
That's why people say the ending feels slapped on. Because while most other MGS games will have twists or moments of revelations at the ending, they're grounded in ways you understand how the protagonist got the info (People talking to Raiden, Eva talking to Big Boss about the Boss, Big Boss talking to Solid etc). TPP just info dumps on you without even a tangible context for why you're getting that information which is why I find it frustrating.
Haunted
Member
delusion still at an all time high i see
Roni
Gold Member
I believe Kojima read this snippet of the wikipedia article while writing the story.
"Overall, the heart rate is decreased while blood pressure is increased, resulting in a net increase in stroke volume, leading to increased tissue perfusion. This causes the myocardium to work more efficiently, with optimized hemodynamics and an improved ventricular function curve."
The time skip happens in the middle of the mirror scene; you can tell from the way the logo in the mirror's reflection changes. He learns the truth in the first half, before the time skip, closer to the events of Ch. 2. So he knows he's a body double for roughly a decade.
In terms of how it unlocks, I'm not too miffed about it. After the first few missions of Ch. 2, I could see it was going to be like a short story collection following the standalone story of Ch. 1.
As for the tapes, I see those as for the player, but there's room for interpretation, I suppose.
Roni
Gold Member
That's some good articulation and you are right in saying the ending stills holds a good link between cause and effect, but I will submit to you the fact that MGSV's ending feels slapped because most people fail to understand it's the manifestation of a memory. Like remembering something long forgotten. The game actually starts at the end and what we play is actually one huge flashback until we get back to the point when Venom starts listening to the tape and the real memory of what happened in the hospital comes to him.
Go back to the beginning, you see the Outer Heaven scene before ever seeing the hospital. The scene's details change, but it's the same bathroom in Outer Heaven. Which is why it's sudden, it's like having an epiphany: the truth simply drops on your lap and you question how it came to you. And that's why I can't agree with the fact that it's objectively worse.
MGSV attempts to give the player the tools to live like Big Boss would've lived: like a mercenary, amidst war and taking on contract after contract. You're supposed to lose track of your sense of self, to let life take its course. Until either the tape or the true memory comes to you and hits you like a train. It's attempting to do something different.
Instead of living a linear narrative akin to a book or movie like in previous games, you're supposed to get this information once you've lost yourself in your own stories and memories. A long time after you've convinced yourself you're Big Boss. And there is no need for spectacle, for my money the reveal is bombastic enough. Even though I saw it coming...
You're in for some serious dick-stabbing, pal.
They are short stories, but they always follow the linear perspective of Venom. Even Mission 45 establishes a tangible reason for why Snake is going on a mission; to pursue Quiet. We're shown the who, what where and how. They don't start breaking narrative perspective or giving you no context as to why you're on a mission until that last mission, which has no context.
As for the tapes, what logical interpretation could be made? The games do present information solely for the player; the event timelines post credits for example, but never the tapes. It's clearly shown that it's Venom listening to them. They're a physical object in the game (except the Paz tapes I guess, but Venom is clearly listening to them inside his head).
Or are we saying that Venom is not listening to this last set for some reason and we are? Even if this doesn't bother you (and to be honest, it kind of doesn't bother me overmuch) it's a totally different way to present an ending to pretty much every other game, and in a way that's totally inelegant.
My problem with treating it as a memory is that Venom remembers things he simply wasn't present for. Ocelots conversation with the real Big Boss for instance. Or as I've alluded to, half the truth tapes.
Now, I think you're right and this probably is what Kojima was going for, but that sort of means the perspective "cheats" in the game by making things personal and subjective when it wants to trick us (Paz) and then making things omniscient and objective when it needs exposition (the ending).
It's not a fatal sin, and I don't hate the ending, but I do think it cheats by shifting between the unreliable narrator and the omniscient info dump in a way previous MGS games simply haven't (at least not to the same extent).
I get the use in that situation, but seeing someone getting a shot of digoxin randomly freaked me out. You got to be careful with that shit, digoxin will kill you dead and it doesn't take that much over dose to do it. I want to see Big Boss's medical license.
I would've felt more comfortable if Big had some digibind on hand and made sure Venom's potassium levels were solid.
Stereogatari
Banned
How do I know if I've captured an enemy guardpost? Is there anything on the map that indicates it?
What about knowing which animals I've captured? When I mark them with my gun or binoculars how do I know if I've captured it before?
Also what do I need to do to unlock the Paz cutscenes and Quiet leaving?
What about knowing which animals I've captured? When I mark them with my gun or binoculars how do I know if I've captured it before?
Also what do I need to do to unlock the Paz cutscenes and Quiet leaving?
I see what you're saying.
It's true there is a thread running through the "short story collection" of Ch. 2. Like you said, a certain sequence of events. But I saw M45 as the end of those events, and M46 like an epilogue shortly thereafter. I didn't need a direct link. Credits roll after M45, the second time they appear once you count the credits after M31. Life goes on at Mother Base, and at some point Venom learns the truth. The third and final credits roll after M46.
While I can't prove it, I wonder if we received the "mirror scene" tape when Mother Base finally achieved a level of stability. No more Skull Face, no more witch-hunts, no more outbreaks, no more disappearing buddies. Some semblance of peace, and so it was decided Venom could know.
RE: the tapes:
While I'm not sure what to make of the "truth tapes" in terms of where they exist -- to be honest, I hadn't really thought of it until now -- in terms of my experience, they were just an awesome reward for finishing the game. I made myself a milkshake and listened to Time Winters' delightful British accent!
Can anyone think of a cooler name than Time Winters, its so damn cool.
The Zero tapes are amazing. I would've loved to see them as cutscenes, although they work perfectly well as radio drama. I'm surprised how effectively they conveyed stuff like Paz trying to locate Zero's room (her bumbling about the empty hallways while Zero calls to her from an unseen location), or how Zero thrashes about after Skull Face's trap sets in.
Roni
Gold Member
I acknowledge your concerns and I respect them, but I can't agree when we've already had things like that in MGS3, for example.
Check the latter half of this scene, for example. There's no way Naked Snake could have access to the information on that chopper without someone telling him about it... And when you assume that, someone could've just as easily told him about the scenes he's not involved in.
Oh you're right that all the MGS games cheat a little bit, hence my comment about "not to the same extent", and the end of Virtuous Mission when Volgin fires the Davey Crockett is a clear example of that.
But why I don't have a problem with that scene is;
1) Snake Eater as a game isn't really one framed as a memory or from an unreliable narrator. It's framed as a Bond-esque story where early and often you see stuff from not Snake's perspective (the conversation between LBJ and Khruschev for instance). TPP is not framed like that at all until the last chapter.
2) Nothing that happens on that chopper is particularly hard for Snake to guess; he just saw the Boss give Volgin the Davey Crockett and drooling over them like new toys; so he can put 2+2 together.
3) EVA fills him in later on it anyway explaining how the Boss had to become a sacrifice after that point.
So while the player is given information Snake isn't (at least at that point in the game) it doesn't break anything in the narrative regarding what Snake knows, or prompt questions about basic context for me (ie; I know the whos, whats, wheres and hows of that scene when I watch it, even if the perspective cheats).
i mean it makes for a real neat dramatic scene and ending for quiet but yeah... it's never really explained. i can sort of buy that accepting the wolbachia might actually kill her, but she doesn't seem suicidal, or at least wasn't while she was on mother base.
Code Talker said she refused them because part of her still wanted revenge.
Really? I think Cloak and Dagger is much better. Maybe I'm just getting into bad matches, but the team effort required in C&D is so much more satisfying than the deathmatch of BH.
KOMANI
KOMANI
Yea. I'd like to know too.
Yeah, C&D is great, too. I just tried it.
right. still makes me wonder why someone who already was made infertile from the parasites couldn't just go in and administer the wolbachia. unless she still really really wanted revenge despite explicitly saying that wasn't the case.
I think the idea is a small part of her was waffling until the end.
Ideally, it wouldn't have been a mutually exclusive setup - having a few promoted into framing cutscenes while the rest remained as tapes could have benefited the rest of the narrative's structure greatly.
Everyone in MGSV is Oracle. Clearly, the recurring theme of characters refusing to receive treatment for their physical conditions or debilitating illnesses is a commentary on the effects of the monstrously privatised US healthcare insurance system; an analogy only strengthened by Konami's own insurance racket.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Ok this latest patch confused the hell out of me.
Why do I only now own 3 of each vehicle while the rest are shown besides a world icon? If I sell or destroy my 3 jeeps how can I get access to the other 19 I have in the world icon?
Why do I have now a portion of my processed materials with a world icon too? Does that mean I can get those stolen from FOB invasions too??? I thought it was only unprocessed materials you could get stolen!
Can someone please clarify?
PS: do unprocessed materials get processed in real time even when my game's completely turned off? I'm not sure but I think I have way more processed fuel resources than I had last night.
Why do I only now own 3 of each vehicle while the rest are shown besides a world icon? If I sell or destroy my 3 jeeps how can I get access to the other 19 I have in the world icon?
Why do I have now a portion of my processed materials with a world icon too? Does that mean I can get those stolen from FOB invasions too??? I thought it was only unprocessed materials you could get stolen!
Can someone please clarify?
PS: do unprocessed materials get processed in real time even when my game's completely turned off? I'm not sure but I think I have way more processed fuel resources than I had last night.
For the first two, because they wanted to push their online mode.
Materials now seem to process while offline.
I just got to play some main missions for the S rank and it's creepy how Quiet is absent from all the cutscenes where she used to be, even briefly. Erased from the face of the Earth, in the old Stalin way.
Sometimes I dream I run as hard as I can after her but I cannot reach her. Then call her name, but she doesn't look back and disappears into the Afghan sands forever, and then I wake up covered in sweat. I quickly go back to the ACC, but she is not there. She isn't in her cell either.
This is when I truly realized that she is gone.
Is this The Phantom Pain?
Sometimes I dream I run as hard as I can after her but I cannot reach her. Then call her name, but she doesn't look back and disappears into the Afghan sands forever, and then I wake up covered in sweat. I quickly go back to the ACC, but she is not there. She isn't in her cell either.
This is when I truly realized that she is gone.
Is this The Phantom Pain?
Wow, they even remove her from the cutscenes?!
No.
Other than the chapters where you fight her, yes.
I just fought Sahelanthropus one more time and she is not with the rest of the main characters when they get out of the chopper at MB.
The exit was real. The haters won.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Why the fuck would I want part of my processed materials as FOB inventory? They're not good for me there if I can't use them to develop stuff! I get the unprocessed ones but this is bullshit!
Also, 3 vehicles in allowed to use now? Vehicles on FOB (i.e. Almost all of them) can't be used on my normal missions or side ops now???
Max Power.
hipsterpants
Member
nuke development is now limited to FOB resources. Thanks konami!
MGS x Nazis would be amazing.
MGO Ocelot really does do more justice to his character than TPP's version.
It's also kind of weird that they take down her photos in the ACC afterwards, as if she were never there. Doubtless it'd be simpler from a programming point of view (especially if it's tied to the same flags determining whether she's in the cutscenes), but surely it wouldn't have been that much more difficult to check if she had left due to Mission 45 rather than never being recruited at all?
...also, since you can imprison her again after replaying her boss fight, would that restore the photos despite not bringing her back as a usable buddy?
It all makes sense now, I withdraw my previous complaints.
best story
best story
best story
best story
best story
... follow the money honey...
Seriously Quiet's logic and critical thinking are garbage tier
I want you to really look at the handling of some of the stuff in this game, and imagine if Kojima really tried to tackle the things that went on in WWII. The only future I see is an indescribable agony.