Serpens007
Member
I still have to play Bloodborne, so for now I'm more in favor of MGSV. And Hotline Miami 2.
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Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
- Start date
I disagree, I think it tells us a lot of BB without actually showing us BB for nearly all of the game.
This point has been made before, but BB transforming his best soldier into a body double who will draw his enemies' fire and ultimately die in his place -- sacrificing his own memories, personality, and identity in the process -- is really BB's heel-turn into villainy. He does to Venom exactly what the Philosophers did to the Boss: exploiting a soldier's loyalty against them, and trading their life away as a tool for their own agenda.
It doesn't really change the final outcome of the story -- Big Boss still founds Outer Heaven, a Big Boss leads it and is eventually killed by Solid, etc. But it does recontextualize not only BB's fall but also the hero worship around him (and simultaneously, it recontextualizes a lot of the alleged demonization around Zero). It adds a new dimension to the character in an, imo, interesting way.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Inferno313
Banned
Yep.
The events that turn Big Boss aren't in TPP, he has already turned by then. They happened in Ground Zeroes.
When Huey betrayed the team, Big Boss realized that to reach his ideals, he needed to put them ahead of the people around him.
It's really good so far, got atmosphere for days, surprisingly character driven, monsters are a tad weak to me doesn't feel like they need to be there. Writing is tight.
Nintendoga
Member
Berserker976
Member
So either Big Boss has already turned "evil" by GZ, and the whole of TPP can just be inferred, rendering it pointless, or Big Boss went through a character development arc while in a nine year coma.
Both are terrible options. We really don't learn anything new about Big Boss, except that he apparently had a less convincing arc than we all initially thought.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
His VA was awesome.
Serpens007
Member
I don't think this game was meant to add much new to the overall story, but to fill some holes and connect the BB saga with the SS saga.
What it did was filling some holes, adding some of its own, and also gave second meanings to other stuff lol
What I did liked was that the "heel turn" was a little more clever than a usual stuff like killing children and stuff. Watching it from the victim's point of view was something more fresh.
What it did was filling some holes, adding some of its own, and also gave second meanings to other stuff lol
What I did liked was that the "heel turn" was a little more clever than a usual stuff like killing children and stuff. Watching it from the victim's point of view was something more fresh.
It's a tie between mgsv and bloodborne for me,if old hunters delivers on a really high note then BB is my goty,
I'll never finish W3 because for some reason i don't feel like playing it all and i love the previous games.
Arkham knight was a dissapointment.
Soma was alright.
FO4 is my 3rd possible goty candidate.
unless someone finds a way to unlock ch3 in mgsv
Arkham knight was a dissapointment.
Soma was alright.
FO4 is my 3rd possible goty candidate.
Both GZ and TPP are important. The events of GZ shook BB to his core, which is why when he wakes up in TPP, he starts betraying his ideals. Someone destroyed Mother Base and nearly killed him. Now he's not taking any chances, and he's willing to use people if it means realizing his vision.
I was just thinking this morning... why Ground Zeroes? is this ever explained? Is Ground Zeroes like the sequence that leads to Venom? is that what the name is trying to describe?
I had to replay all of the Prologue and Phantom Limbs mission to get to play MGO on the ps4. The more i played i was just wondering how the whole GZ section would tie into the game if it had not been broken off.
Would it still be considered part of the prologue?
GZ definitely adds a lot of context to what happens in TPP. Its crazy that they separated them.
I had to replay all of the Prologue and Phantom Limbs mission to get to play MGO on the ps4. The more i played i was just wondering how the whole GZ section would tie into the game if it had not been broken off.
Would it still be considered part of the prologue?
GZ definitely adds a lot of context to what happens in TPP. Its crazy that they separated them.
Man, I wish we got to play that game.
They could've made GZ the prologue, following a tutorial that teaches the controls, and then integrate a streamlined version of Awakening (so no forced controls) into Ch. 1 proper.
But the reality is they wanted to maintain hype while also recouping costs for Fox Engine, so they released GZ separately.
We did. We just experienced it from the viewpoint of the people actually affected by BB's actions. The people put in the crosshairs and given an unthinkable burden.
The real BB was sipping wine by a fireplace somewhere.
Moon_frogger
Member
maybe moreso than other games, but there are still drawbacks. in the beginning especially the tranq timer is so short that guards often wake up before you can actually get to them and fulton them. fultoning itself has caused me a whole plethora of issues because it draws attention, especially in heavily populated areas. but yeah, overall I'm coming to the realization that MGSV is much, much easier than the other games. I'm going back to the missions looking for a challenge and other than the self imposed ones with no reward structure there isn't any. I'm thinking about installing some mods to make the game more challenging for my next play. I've also completely stopped using d dog because he just makes the game boring. It's still been fun trying to s rank all the missions though. I find when s ranking lethal has been my preferred method because it's just so much quicker than fultoning or worrying about tranq timers. every single s rank I've obtained has either been total stealth/ghosting or just straight up murdering my way through.
Stereogatari
Banned
Major is Zero.
Berserker976
Member
I dunno man, he didn't seem so shook to me in the tapes. He went from seeing Mother Base being destroyed, directly into a nine year coma, to completely over it. I mean, in the Truth tapes he just doesn't sound too concerned, am I wrong? He seems extremely put together.
And with all this talk about revenge, you'd think Big Boss would be feeling some desire for it. But apparently he's fine to just completely forget about Skull Face. He's the medic's problem now, Big Boss is too busy smoking and wearing a jacket.
Oh. i get the whole cost thing.
Just wondering how the game would've been presented if GZ was still part of it.
Way I see it, BB is calm and collected because he's passed off the burden to someone else. Someone he trusts is skillful enough to exact revenge, and someone who will take the heat off himself while he continues to pursue his real goal of building a military nation.
Man, just reading some of the stuff in here about potential GOTY's... anyone find themselves having a hard time remembering what games they played this year? I know I played stuff but I just can't remember. I think I'm getting old. Either way, as of this moment, my GOTY is either Monster Hunter 4U or MGSV. Splatoon and Mario Maker were good but don't know that they're GOTY worthy imo.
Also, I'm kind of curious, Huey is obviously a fucked up piece of shit, but what would he classify as in the real world? Is that a psychopath, sociopath? He does nothing but lie and manipulate with no thought for anyones well being but his own, and listening to Strangelove die in the pod was just heartbreaking, and she was happy that she at least got her son away from Huey. Were there any signs of Huey being this fucked up prior to TPP?
Also, I'm kind of curious, Huey is obviously a fucked up piece of shit, but what would he classify as in the real world? Is that a psychopath, sociopath? He does nothing but lie and manipulate with no thought for anyones well being but his own, and listening to Strangelove die in the pod was just heartbreaking, and she was happy that she at least got her son away from Huey. Were there any signs of Huey being this fucked up prior to TPP?
Berserker976
Member
Maybe, but to Big Boss, Mother Base just got destroyed. It seems way out of character for him to just immediately jump on board with the whole medic diversion thing. It just seems to conflict so much with what we know about Big Boss from the early MG games and how he's characterized in MGS3, PW, and MGS4.
We're not privy to BB's reaction the moment he woke up and was reintegrated into the world, so we can't say he didn't react. All we get is him receiving the details of Zero's plan, which he readily goes along with for reasons already described. No more chances, time to break some eggs to make an omelette, etc.
One of the best things of the game was his VA lol It's very... Metal Gear lol
Dick Justice
Banned
Even funnier how Venom doesn't just shoot his ass right there.
Berserker976
Member
Yeah... that seems, like... vitally important.
Ordinaryundone
Member
He definitely turned sour by GZ, that was the whole point of Peace Walker (while still painting him in a more or less heroic light). We see this through his willingness to make a nuclear Metal Gear, recruit child soldiers, Kidnap people and hold them for an indeterminate amount of time, and finally bury his memory of The Boss, which was his strongest moral compass. By Ground Zeroes he is hiding evidence and ready to bold faced lie to an international nuclear arms committee, not to mention execute Paz (or worse, hand her over to Miller for "interrogation"). He's not a nice guy, though up until then we give him the benefit of the doubt because he's Snake and, for the most part, still has the moral high ground vs. His opponents.
This changes in The Phantom Pain though. The twist reveals that the heroic deeds of "Snake" are no longer those of Big Boss. He doesn't have that smoke screen to hide behind anymore, and what's left is the truth: A man willing to steal the life and identity of loyal soldier, sending them to their death, to accomplish their dream of a war washout end. He's no better than the Patriots/Philosophers/Cipher, not anymore.
I agree it would've been interesting, but we still see where he settled, which was the plan he accepted over his ideals.
Berserker976
Member
I'm not arguing that the events of TPP don't paint him in a different light, I'm saying that we don't actually see the change happen. We see the before and we see the after, but yet again, the middle of Big Boss' change is missing.
In MGS3 the change was missing, but they gave you what you needed to fill in the change in your head, and honestly, I think that's where the prequel shit should have stopped.
PW attempted to fill in some stuff, and more or less succeeded in showing Big Boss becoming a man who could be seen as an evil dictator with good intentions. This took the course of the game to show, however.
TPP just expects us to believe that he went from well-intentioned warlord to straight up manipulative asshole for like, no reason, and in no time.
RandomExpletive
Member
The biggest crime of MGSV is that we won't get to hear more of Skull Face or Zero, their VA's absolutely nailed it... Cmoooon MGO voice packs!
Roni
Gold Member
Now that logic makes very little sense to me, and this is the thing that I've been trying to address, how did The Phantom Pain undo any of the stuff you saw previously?
You saw him become bitter over The Boss' treatment by the goverment and then you saw him escalate to an evil warmonger. How does The Phantom Pain make it more difficult for you to believe he'd do something like that? Dude already had evil tendencies in Peace Walker... What do you think happens after everything he built gets destroyed, most everyone he knows is killed and he himself gets blown out of the sky in Ground Zeroes?
How doesn't that help him go over the edge?
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
It's not hard for me to believe that, upon awakening, BB looked back on what happened and realized how close he came to dying (and thus failing The Boss, in his view), and how this led to him accept a plan he would've resisted in the past. It's not a "muahaha" sort of evil; it's him rationalizing something in a new way. It's like how some people experience no cognitive dissonance over the bombing of Hiroshima. They see it as a necessary evil. BB is taking a similar stance with Venom and the Diamond Dogs and the hospital at Cyprus. They're expendable, but for a "noble cause." One that he feels is too important to lose. Of course, he's now losing sight of the forest for the trees, going against the will of The Boss, who said to leave the world as it is and respect the will of others. To not use people as a means to an end.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Kojima has a knack for leaving vitally important plot elements out of his last few games.
Guys you have accept this.
Big Boss was never going to turn evil after MGS3.
At best we'd found that he did some dodgy shit, but both Outer Heaven and Zanzibar Land must have been just propaganda to drive the Patriots AIs against him.
Why are we blaming the attack on the Cyprus Hospital on Big Boss?
He couldn't possibly have known that Volgin was going to contact a telepath kid that would track him down across countries.
Big Boss was never going to turn evil after MGS3.
At best we'd found that he did some dodgy shit, but both Outer Heaven and Zanzibar Land must have been just propaganda to drive the Patriots AIs against him.
Why are we blaming the attack on the Cyprus Hospital on Big Boss?
He couldn't possibly have known that Volgin was going to contact a telepath kid that would track him down across countries.
Berserker976
Member
So wait, is he already over the edge pre-GZ, or does GZ push him over the edge? This is what I don't get. If you're saying we already saw him become an evil dictator pre-GZ then TPP added nothing to his character, and if GZ did push him over the edge, we don't get to see that transformation.
Pilgrimzero
Member
So I got the battle with Quiet and KO her (thanks supply drops!). Miller starts throwing a fit.
Even goes so far as to tell me that he won't allow her to come onto MY base.
Then he gets dudes to point guns at the helicopter I'm in and again tell me what I can and cannot do with my base.
If it had not been a cut scene I'd have fucked his world up. Venom is not above beating a blind crippled man's ass. There is only room for one Big Boss (or 2 or whatever).
Even goes so far as to tell me that he won't allow her to come onto MY base.
Then he gets dudes to point guns at the helicopter I'm in and again tell me what I can and cannot do with my base.
If it had not been a cut scene I'd have fucked his world up. Venom is not above beating a blind crippled man's ass. There is only room for one Big Boss (or 2 or whatever).
Foxtastical
Member
You weren't around these parts for MGS2 then.
It could happen. Who knows if it will, but christ, it could happen. I wouldn't put it out of the question.
Berserker976
Member
Miller had every right to do that. Think about what would have happened if Quiet was even half-way good at her job.
You brought an obvious Cipher agent to your home base. All she had to do from that point on was say a few things to Venom and his men and Diamond Dogs would have been history.
In the Truth tapes, BB goes along with a plan where they say they'll deliberately maximize the number of innocent bodies in the building to buy themselves time in the event XOF strikes sooner than expected. He is knowingly putting innocent people in harm's way. It's another example of using people as a means to an end, rather than the end itself.
Agreed. While I admire Venom's mercy, he fucked up bringing Quiet back to Mother Base. Maybe we can chalk it up to his uncanny ability to intuit some goodness in her, but Miller was absolutely within reason to oppose the plan. Quiet was a Cipher agent, and she had just tried to kill Venom. Her defending the chopper was also defending herself. Miller was perfectly rational when he said this was a bad idea, even if it ends up being a good idea.
Ordinaryundone
Member
Peace Walker is when he turns bad, Ground Zeroes is where he goes over the edge. TPP was all about providing a new context to our perception of BB, not about developing him. Changing him from "misunderstood protagonist" to "manipulative villain" was as simple as just changing the point of view.
Agreed. It's arguably more impactful this way. We feel the string of betrayal. Venom himself is able to look past it, for the time being, at least (realizing it only when it's too late), but the player knows where BB is heading, and finally feels it, too, when you realize that much of the danger you narrowly avoided was brought upon you by BB.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Absolutely. I could listen to those two all day.
Their tape together, and the second tape of SF and Codetalker chatting are two of the very best bits of writing in the series IMO and the delivery of all 3 VAs is what sells them. I hold them in such high regard that I think they'd work very well as standalone vignettes.
Roni
Gold Member
Well, I don't hold a patent on the truth, but for my understanding GZ pushed him over the edge and evil tendencies were nurtured by the situation to start growing into actual evil - read: an obsession with his own dreams and visions for the future and a disregard for others.
And yeah, we don't see it happen. Just like we don't see Cipher being founded, or we don't see Solid start to age rapidly or how we don't see Raiden rescue Sunny or get his cybernetic implants. Or how we don't get to see Solid and Otacon start Philanthropy or how we don't see Solid escape the sinking Tanker.
Like I've stated over and over again: a key plot point being handled as a secondary narrative thread is not new to the series and can't possibly be used as an argument to bring this specific game in the franchise down.
After re-playing MGS2 the final twist in MGSV starts to loss his value. Back at the end of MGS2 Kojima was already telling the players (Raiden) to create their own tale and keep their own individuality at the beginning of the digital age of Internet and information. It is pretty clear when Raiden holds the dog tags with the player's name.
If MGS2 didn't have sequels, it could have been implied that Snake was also a projection from Raiden's own mind after assimilating so much information about him.
It also shows that not even Kojima planned for the series to last that long and that he planned every game as a stand alone thing. The ending for MGS and MGS2 feel conclusive enough despite the loose ending and each of them could had been the end of the series if Konami wanted, even if he had to leave some loose ties to ensure the series' future.
If MGS2 didn't have sequels, it could have been implied that Snake was also a projection from Raiden's own mind after assimilating so much information about him.
It also shows that not even Kojima planned for the series to last that long and that he planned every game as a stand alone thing. The ending for MGS and MGS2 feel conclusive enough despite the loose ending and each of them could had been the end of the series if Konami wanted, even if he had to leave some loose ties to ensure the series' future.
That's true, but man I'd really like to see those things. The threat of MGSV being the last Metal Gear really shifted expectations. "Just another adventure in the life of Big Boss"... it kinda implies more to come. But there's nothing after this. And that really sucks.