It feels especially weird for me, because now the gameplay has finally arrived to match the story I've always adored. It's like Kojima stands up and goes, "Aha! I got it!" And then promptly leaves the room. Can you imagine an MGS6 building on this gameplay foundation? It would be incredible.
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Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
- Start date
Unparalleled_Mediocrity
Neo Member
They're armed with five five sixers and pineapples
Berserker976
Member
Solid Snake and Otacon forming Philanthropy was a natural progression for those characters, and Otacon picking Snake up in a boat isn't really "a key plot point." As for the rest, you're not really wrong, and that's partially why I think the MGS series after 3 has so many issues.
But we're not talking about a missing scene, we're talking about a character that has been developed in the timeline before and after this point being changed into something unfamiliar. Big Boss was never made out to be some sneaky, manipulative asshole that would use people to get ahead. Not in MGS3, PW, MG2, or MGS4.
Stereogatari
Banned
"A Hind D? Colonel, what's a Russian gunship doimg here?"
"SS60 Kasatka, the Killer Whale."
Moon_frogger
Member
Exactly. What we got in Mgsv was a ton of great character moments. Venom didn't speak much but when he did it was to the point and people listened. I loved it. My main complaint with the story was ocelot. I really don't think anybody can defend how pointless he was in this game. He has a starring role in nearly every other game but here he was just an info dump. They really just shoehorned him in other than some of the zero stuff in the tapes. It was a real shame because I think baker did a pretty decent job with what he was given.
Ka-60 Kasatka. Kamov Chopper. "Killer Whale."
Stereogatari
Banned
Yes the Ocelot inclusion was disgusting. No character whatsoever. Compare him with Miller who had a lot going on. Ocelot was the coolest guy in the series, his young version is my fav. character in the whole damn series and here he is being less relevant than Natasha Romanenko, Sigint, Drebin and hell even Fatman's mentor.
Thank you
I knew I had some of that wrong.
Roni
Member
While Big Boss may be very hands on, he does use a lot of people. Everyone of his followers is a pair of hands fanning the flames of war across multiple battlefields. He would accomplish nothing by himself. That very speech about the war orphans in MG2 is all about manipulation and reframing perspectives. Those children think he is their saviour. Look at how Gray Fox, Sniper Wolf or Naomi talk about him.
And I'll draw a simple parallel that should show this problem didn't start after MGS3: you wanted to play as Big Boss in MGSV. See his true story progress and watch how things developed from his perspective.
Well, I wanted to play as Iroquois Pliskin in MGS2. See how the story progressed from his perspective, what he was doing, what were his objectives and struggles. But I didn't get that...
Why? Because both Solid Snake and Big Boss are not being manipulated by anyone in those two moments in history. Kojima has never let us play as a character in-the-know, in an MGS game there has to always be an interesting plot twist that affects the main protagonist. Solid Snake already knows about the Patriots in MGS2 and has a clearer idea of what's going down.
Big Boss in MGSV is the same. He's working with Ocelot and others to build his free nation. He is on control of his destiny at that moment in time. He's the manipulator, he's a character who has answers. The franchise's DNA dictates we can't play as him.
Imagine how balls out crazy it would be.
The twist.
You were dating your right hand all along... while your left hand chopped it off because it was jealous. All for the lust of Revenge! WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Does... does it star Quiet?
Berserker976
Member
This is a really interesting observation, only undercut by MGS2. Remember, Solid Snake actually was being manipulated to some degree even in MGS2:
Otacon: Snake, you there? It's me. I've finished going over that disc.
Solid Snake: Did you find the Patriots' list?
Otacon: Of course. It contains the personal data of twelve people. There was a name on it -- Snake, it was one of our biggest contributors.
The idea that we couldn't possibly play as Big Boss in MGSV because Kojima will never let you play as someone who knows what's going on at the highest level is interesting. But it's an explanation, not a justification.
lucablight
Member
There's a scene in the nuclear trailer where Snake gets one of the motherbase soldiers to put a knife to his chest and the soldier is terrified saying nonono. When does that scene occur in the game?
Not really, it'd just be the banal, predictable sort of creepy. Look up some skirts, sniff some panties, feel up a teenager, take photos of women having psychological meltdowns.
A Kojima-dating sim, on the other hand...
Chico's corpse.
Roni
Member
The same thing could be said for Big Boss, he never knew Zero was his saviour and the conceiver of the body double plan. Everyone is being played to some degree in MGS. The only constant is we're always playing as the character being manipulated the most.
I reject your fantasy and substitute it with mine:
You date Quiet... AND her identical twins, Murmur and Not Very Talkative.
When you understand the secret reason why they cover each other's naked bodies in Cool Whip and lick it off, you will be ashamed of your words and deeds.
In the end you fall in love with Kaz
Amazing.
You know what's interesting?
I met up with a friend today who is a hardcore gamer with great taste who doesn't follow any forums or communities. He plays every big game release and many of the good, smaller offerings. He loves games along with every other art(/entertainment) medium.
He asked me if I'd played The Phantom Pain. I said yes. He asked me if it was good. I said yes. And he said that's a relief, because he'd heard overwhelmingly from the internet (Twitter, various gaming sites, enthusiast press) that it was great.
That surprised me. I've been living so long in the GAFbubble it's hard to get a grip on how the gaming world generally feels about MGSV. And it seems, just as the critics gauged, that it is very broadly loved and hailed as a great game. This is going by one guy's subset perspective, though, obviously.
Yeah it's fair enough from that perspective, but I think from a non-fan's standpoint, or evaluating MGS4 as a game not in a series (a totally valid thing to do) it's a load of shit. MGS3, MGSV, and MGS1 all work perfectly as standalone games outwith MGS (story wise, they all stand alone as games). All the others fail at it.
Lmfao, just noticed that!
Meryl and Johnny obviously.
I met up with a friend today who is a hardcore gamer with great taste who doesn't follow any forums or communities. He plays every big game release and many of the good, smaller offerings. He loves games along with every other art(/entertainment) medium.
He asked me if I'd played The Phantom Pain. I said yes. He asked me if it was good. I said yes. And he said that's a relief, because he'd heard overwhelmingly from the internet (Twitter, various gaming sites, enthusiast press) that it was great.
That surprised me. I've been living so long in the GAFbubble it's hard to get a grip on how the gaming world generally feels about MGSV. And it seems, just as the critics gauged, that it is very broadly loved and hailed as a great game. This is going by one guy's subset perspective, though, obviously.
Yeah it's fair enough from that perspective, but I think from a non-fan's standpoint, or evaluating MGS4 as a game not in a series (a totally valid thing to do) it's a load of shit. MGS3, MGSV, and MGS1 all work perfectly as standalone games outwith MGS (story wise, they all stand alone as games). All the others fail at it.
Lmfao, just noticed that!
Meryl and Johnny obviously.
That's only the bad ending. If you manage to gain an even spread of affection points for all the sisters, instead of dying in the climactic fire, they'll survive their comas, with near-total amnesia. After which they're convinced they're your obedient little sisters, who'd do anything to make onii-chan happy.
Meanwhile, Miller dies alone in Alaska.
Berserker976
Member
I don't see how that really excuses anything. It sort of just means that the medic was created by Kojima out of necessity because he ran out of ways to have the main character manipulated for most of the game at this point in the lore.
Wow, I hope that's not true, because that is really lazy.
Haha. I think maybe he's just saying he's truly 'burning' with revenge? That's how I'd read it.
We did. It happens, it's just in the background. (Well, we see how shaken BB and Kaz are in GZ's closing cutscene. And he has even more drive and determination when we see him in TPP.)
Well if you see MGS2's "twist" as the ultimate "twist", then there's no way MGSV could have beaten it. We still got a unique, clever twist, although he was obviously never going to match that high. I'm just glad he did something different.
You are cheeky.
Well said.
And I really hope we get one. Even if Koji isn't involved, the precedent has been set, you know?
I don't see why people keep playing this 'out of necessity' line.
That's what Kojima has been doing for four games. Probably more. (Bad) writers create inconsistencies and complications. They make new complications to answer these things. Kojima is notorious for this.
The medic thing is fine. It wasn't necessary, but it worked to show that Big Boss has finally turned totally insane in his defence of his ideals - enough to go along with somebody being manipulated, moulded into being his body double and follow through with the plan. If you take the 'it wasn't necessary' line, you're throwing fucking thousands of great characters and plot lines from thousands of great works of fiction out in the trash. Not everything has to be superimportant to the overall plot or lore.
Moon_frogger
Member
how anybody could accuse hideo kojima of being lazy or a 'lazy writer' is beyond me. there were so many fresh, original ideas in MGSV. so many moments I couldn't predict and subverting of expectations. I guess it's a lose lose situation because if it would have been the fan service, lord of the rings style finale with everybody's favorite characters along for the adventure he would have been bashed for 'pandering' like he was in MGS4. Ah well, I loved it which i guess is all that matters.
Berserker976
Member
Fill me in man, because I must have missed all of these. Chapter One is a straight arrow of a story. And as has been pointed out before, you can see pieces of every cutscene in the entire game in the trailers. I thought the game itself might recontextualize them in an interesting way at least, but nope.
So, please, show me these fresh, unexpected moments that subverted expectations.
We need to stop assuming that "subverting expectations" is good all the time. Subverting expectations is not good just because it gives you something you didn't expect. The result has to actually be good.
If you liked the result of MGSV that's fine, and completely valid. But let's not assume that we must all accept it and like it just because "we didn't expect it".
get your GMP in the red (spend all of it). Go back to MB. Great scene, Keifer was awesome in it.
MGSV's ending is like the more cynical, inverse of MGS2's. That game ends with Snake telling Raiden to break free of his programming and live his own life; MGSV ends with the realization that Venom hasn't been his own man at all, that his identity has been taken, and he just submits to that.
Roni
Member
That's what I think happened, for both Raiden and Venom. They were conceived out of necessity. But I don't think it's because he ran out of ideas for manipulating the main characters, that's just the point at which they were in their lives.
I'm happy you finally understand the similarities, though you still can't seem to accept them.
With time, maybe...
That's good. Although I read it as him 'breaking free' at the end- though by that time it's too late and Solid Snake is coming to kill him.
ShadowKhaN
Banned
Hating psn more every day.
Love Deterrence
Member
Paz was a double agent, Kaz was in bed with Cipher, Chico sold them all again after being tortured, it was obvious Huey had something to do with the assault on Mother Base...
After nine years in a coma Big Boss wakes up and probably realises there's not that many people he can trust after all, except for maybe Ocelot. With so few trustworthy friends left it would be quite logical for him to feel betrayed and be pretty pissed off. He goes along with Ocelot's plan and leaves everyone behind to start anew, only ever reaching back to the guy who actually did something for him nine years back, that being the medic. I believe trying to make sense of the smaller details of the lore in this series is generally an exercise in futility, but in this particular instance I don't see a problem.
I agree.
As fantastic as the gameplay itself is, in terms of outposts there's nothing quite like Camp Omega. At this point I'm just hoping that the inevitable next entry in the series gets it right and experiments with bigger and more intricate location layouts. I don't care much for the open world itself, and I'm fine with smaller locations in exchange for bigger compunds.
Serpens007
Member
I think that both twists are fairly different.
I don't believe that Raiden is in fact "the player", I think he is who he is, the representation of the mindless masses that has a double morality. The fourth wall breaking feels more like a way to put the player in that place of double morality, and also giving the message of "try to find your own line of thoughts".
The twist in MGSV works in several levels. It makes the heroism of Big Boss a relative one, because his heroic actions were made by "the player", not necesarely Big Boss. And even if he did, the plot twist works because then it makes the betrayal a personal one. I think another possibility is that the Big Boss speech was a way of convincing Venom on keeping his role. Was a thing of charisma, let's make him feel he is the real deal, but fuck him. Not meant fully for the player.
In any case, that's the beauty of this twists. We can argue far more about this, and find different meanings behind them, far more than MGS3 or 1 endings.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Exactly, but it's only during the bit Snake isn't "in the know" that we could actually play as him.
I wonder if Stefanie Joosten will find more work in games. Her digital likeness might be owned by Konami now, although it was stylized, so it could be tweaked. But it wasn't just looks -- she proved she could do VA in both English and Japanese, and she did all of the motion capture and facial capture. Heck, she even sang one of the theme songs. Pretty impressive for an out-of-nowhere model. I'd think the bilingual VA and motion/facial capture would make her a candidate for more work, but who knows.
Make her the basis for a Resident Evil protagonist, pls.
Make her the basis for a Resident Evil protagonist, pls.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
she'll be in Metal Gear Venom II so it's all good
When Quiet comes back to rescue Venom as Outer Heaven is about to explode, and they elope to a romantic getaway in Europe and get married and have babies and live happily ever after.she'll be in Metal Gear Venom II so it's all good
;_;
Alternatively, I'll take a Quiet stylish character action game from Platinum Games.
Call it Metal Gear Silence: Deafening.
To come back to this point, his turn happened way back at the end of Peace Walker, when he rejected The Boss' ideals for his own.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
i'd settle for dlc that makes her join the DDogs again... i miss my sniping buddy q_q and i didn't even like her before i played the game ;p
but i dunno, her camaraderie with venom won me over and i miss her humming and headshots
but i dunno, her camaraderie with venom won me over and i miss her humming and headshots
MAX PAYMENT
Member
Her humming was absurdly annoying. There were only like 2 or 3 audio samples.
I like how she sneaks around by creating sonic booms and dust devils that can be heard/seen for miles. Very stealthy.
GreyOcelot
Member
which is exactly what we do when we play video games as another character. we can't break free. choice is an illusion that leads to the same result. it's playing on a lot of the same themes that the bioshock games did