Is it 'unsettling' for a father to get involved in his child's potty training? To demand he take no part in such a crucial part of a child's development is a deplorably regressive attitude.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
- Start date
Is it 'unsettling' for a father to get involved in his child's potty training? To demand he take no part in such a crucial part of a child's development is a deplorably regressive attitude.
Some people suggested the Vol. 3 stuff is a reference to the 3rd Portopia tape that people suspect was suppose to exist to complete whatever those Vol.1 and Vol.2 MSX data tapes are suppose to do.
Wow... I mean i convinced myself that there simply isnt anything else in the game and that it was simply cut but all these things just make me wonder once again... What a damn troll this dude is....
Death Metalist
Member
"My flesh, my bones, joining the silt on the ocean floor"
Maaaaannn...It's probably one of the few tapes in the game that I listened to again. Really damn good.
I think Ch. 3, "Peace" (the title card unearthed in the game files), would simply be the nuclear disarmament scene. It's an eight-minute hidden ending triggered when enough nukes are disarmed.
LurkerPrime
Member
Peace probably was the disarmament cutscene; but I'm interested to see how the chapter naming scheme would have looked when Ground Zeroes was still part of the main game. Would it and the hospital scene have been part of the same prologue chapter? Two Chapter Zeros makes some sort of sense in that context...
The latter is already possible, and once MGO comes to PC we'll have the first one as well.
Kinky
I know, I have seen the ending, but it really doesnt make sense to call that "chapter". Its just a cutscene. I could accept it as an "epilogue", but a "chapter"? It doesnt add up.
I dont know if there is something planned as a DLC, but then again my biggest question is, if there was a planned DLC mission pack (chapter 3), why the hell would Kojima include pretty much the entirety of mission 51 in blu ray extras??
I really dont get why wouldnt Konami want to offer this as DLC. It just makes me think that this (mission 51 reveal) is proof that they have no plans for any kind of DLC (as they said) and that there is nothing scheduled to release as far as campaign goes.
Haunted
Member
Judging by chapter 2, chapter 3 probably would have been
Extracting a High-Skilled Soldier 17
Take out the Heavy Infantry 12
Destroy the Armoured Unit 18
[SUBSISTENCE] Where do the Bees Sleep
Then two shitty cutscenes about Miller and Code Talker without much context on Mother Base and after completing 3 more sideops the nuclear disarmament cutscene plays.
fin
The project ran way over budget as is and got pushed out in a clearly unfinished state, there's no way they're bankrolling more significant content production for the game.I know, I have seen the ending, but it really doesnt make sense to call that "chapter". Its just a cutscene. I could accept it as an "epilogue", but a "chapter"? It doesnt add up.
I dont know if there is something planned as a DLC, but then again my biggest question is, if there was a planned DLC mission pack (chapter 3), why the hell would Kojima include pretty much the entirety of mission 51 in blu ray extras??
I really dont get why wouldnt Konami want to offer this as DLC. It just makes me think that this (mission 51 reveal) is proof that they have no plans for any kind of DLC (as they said) and that there is nothing scheduled to release as far as campaign goes.
From here on out, it's all insurance policies and MB coins and costumes to squeeze out additional revenue.
How much has MGSV sold so far?
well i mean the thing about chapter 2 is that there was no overarching plot. the whole point of the phantom pain was to deal with the events of ground zeroes. chapter 2 is more of an aftermath/epilogue to the main story. it's where paz/eli/quiet/huey all gets resolved, things that don't fit into the narrative of chapter 1. hell i wonder if a better name for chapter 2 would have been phantoms, but kojima had gone to that well kind of a lot already so maybe not.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I know, but wasn't he going to be on the team if Liquid didn't kill him?
Solideliquid
Member
When "Miller" gets on the codec with Snake they seem to have a relationship. I bet Miller helped train or helped in some sort of in-mission support for Solid Snake in previous missions. In other words, they were allies. That likely means Miller was not allied with Liquid Snake.
Haunted
Member
I agree. The whole structure in the latter half of the game is fucked up. There's no natural flow to anything after chapter 1 concludes.
But the structural mistakes start earlier. It's not that all the character resolutions wouldn't have fit into the narrative of "chapter 1", it's that mission 31 is being built up to be the final climax instead of the midpoint. Structurally, 31 is the key resolution for the revenge plot and simply should not have occurred as early as it did in the overarching story.
31 should have been the key climax, but is reduced to the midpoint climax, which 43 should've been. From all the materials we've seen, 43 was intended as a key turning point for the main character, with Venom's full commitment to revenge and becoming a villain being made clear - then you've got the usual rising action and build up to 31, with 45 and the other character's fates as falling action and 46 as denouement.
Basically, Kojima tried to adhere to a classical dramatic structure but fails - he takes too long to get to the first climax (should've moved a good portion of the first 20 missions past the midpoint climax), incorrectly positions the mid-point and final climax (should've switched 43 and the 28-31 arc) and completely fumbles on the falling action and denouement with weird pacing decisions like repeat missions, cutscenes suddenly appearing without much context or buildup and the unlock structure in general.
I think that the people screaming about cut content are mostly missing the point. There's definitely enough content in the game to build a reasonable structure with a clear mid point climax (43), rising action to final climax (28-31), falling action (Huey cutscene, 51, 45) and denouement (nuclear disarmament, 46). I'm not arguing that this would improve the quality of the writing and individual plot points, but having a clear, flowing plot structure can help appreciation of content immensely.
These are high school levels mistakes in plot structure and pacing and pretty much everyone experiencing chapter 2 naturally picked up on these, even if they couldn't really articulate why.
is the game about venom giving in to vengeance and becoming a monster though? after skull face dies and after huey gets dozens of people killed, venom's reaction is to give huey a shot (by exiling him), and to always remember the fallen by making them into diamonds. he gives eli the opportunity to kill him or take his own life instead of having the little shit killed. i think this is meant to serve as a contrast to naked snake, who puts others in front of himself and kind of lost the plot in regards to honoring the boss's wishes.
i can only guess as to kojima's intentions, but i think instead of explicitly showing big boss's downfall, you were meant to feel at least a little bit of betrayal for him having gone along with this plan.
that's where i feel that chapter 1 is the story and chapter 2 is more the epilogue. chapter 1 feels complete (if a little overdrawn), but chapter 2 doesn't really have a lot as an arc unless you look at it as the falling action from the climax (venom finding his own way as big boss).
Miller trained Solid Snake initially, Snake calls him "Master" because he was a boot camp instructor and most likely the first person to teach Snake about being a soldier. Liquid went rogue on everyone a long time ago and Big Boss was doing his own thing completely leaving everyone behind, so Miller's idea was to get his hands on the other clone early and train him up specifically to surpass and kill Big Boss and probably Liquid. Ocelot was the one who was invested in Liquid, in MGS1 he talks about the fact Liquid is an amazing man who is the only one who can make his dream come true.
The primary reason Miller was going to be on the codec team was because he had lived in Alaska longer than Snake, so he was there to talk about the overall environment of Shadow Moses and provide general moral support as his teacher.
Liquid and Ocelot knew Snake was going to be sent by the patriots to stop them, killing Miller was a convenient way to keep tabs on Snake and to also remove a problematic element.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, he helped train Snake (he was known as "Hellmaster" because he was such a hard ass) and was part of the MG2 support team.
I assume so otherwise Liquid wouldn't have needed to replace him. That doesn't contradict anything he said though since there is nothing to indicate he was on the team specifically to go against Liquid. He was drafted in as an advisor because of his knowledge of Alaska and general survival techniques. Just another job, I guess.
Edit: Ninja'd!
I agree with this. Venom does seem to regret how Skull Face was handled. Even in the ending scene of Chapter 1 after having mutilated Skull Face (via Miller's guided hand) you can see through his facial expression the realization that they went too far with this and that there is no end to their lust of vengeance. Vengeance acts as their Phantom Pain now like Miller admits at the end of Chapter 1.
So Venom clearly understand that Skull Face handling was a mistake and from then on decides to give people a second chance, exiling Huey, giving Eli so many chances etc.
The message is pretty clear for me.
funkystudent
Member
I am not even sure what would even be in a Act 3.
I think the ending of Eli's story could have easily fit into act 2 and thats really the only big dangling thread.
MAYBE they do more missions leading up to The Truth because there is zero build up there. It just happens after you meet the requirements.
Also I guess something with Miller to give him a conclusion.
Oh and something with Kid Mantis like a boss battle and some Kojima 4th wall fuckery.
With all the stuff we know what cut (Mission 51, Usable Battle Gear) I do wonder what else was cut we dont know about.
I think the ending of Eli's story could have easily fit into act 2 and thats really the only big dangling thread.
MAYBE they do more missions leading up to The Truth because there is zero build up there. It just happens after you meet the requirements.
Also I guess something with Miller to give him a conclusion.
Oh and something with Kid Mantis like a boss battle and some Kojima 4th wall fuckery.
With all the stuff we know what cut (Mission 51, Usable Battle Gear) I do wonder what else was cut we dont know about.
After this game's post-credits conversation, I couldn't handle being bludgeoned to death with any more clumsy foreshadowing/callbacks.
The pacing issues stem from the game being too big. There is too much bloat to the game, and any momentum the story carries is lost when you're forced to do 3 unrelated missions or a variety of side ops.
Without editing the content of the game, I feel the game could be improved if missions were categorised differently and bloating was removed. Replayability would remain largely unaffected, and I feel these changes would improve first playthroughs. Main missions are story based only, and there is no delay or padding caused by unrelated missions.
Main missions would be story based only i.e. 1,6,11,19,20,23,28,29,30,31,43,44 and 45. Equally, any of the story based side ops would be classed as main missions too i.e. Side Op 82,11,113, 143, 144, 150. The mission order would be re-arranged in the ways that you detail, which I can't disagree with.
The majority of Side Ops would be cut. Instead, all main missions that are not story related would be Side Ops. The side ops that would remain are the animal rescue , mine removal, mother base soldiers and child rescue missions as they provide some variety.
This is actually following the structure that GZ established, and I still don't understand why Kojima abandoned it when it was effective and simple. You want actual substance to your game, not rubbish.
Great post. Never even thought about placing 43 towards the middle but it makes total sense.
Haunted
Member
Yes! Less bloat and a smart re-classification of sideops and main missions would help the flow of the story so much.
The subsistence/total stealth modifiers could still be in the game somewhere, just clearly marked as post-game or alternative "challenge-mode" content instead of randomly appearing in the midst of the main mission menu while the story hasn't even concluded yet. Who ever thought that would be a good idea.
Alex_Mexico
Member
It really, really does.
I was totally seeing Big Boss downward spiral into full blown villainy while playing that superb mission but not, it wasnt Big Boss but an inconsequential body double.
Ugh.
After finally playing/learning "The Truth", I found myself not caring because I felt an great emptiness about losing Quiet. For me she was the glue holding me to the game. When she went away,, everything else seemed so mundane. I know if I end up playing this game again, I will be wearing the Butterfly emblem to prevent her departure!
Just finished the game, my fresh thoughts...
1. I felt unsatisfied at how surreal the story was. What I chalked up to hallucinations due to the bone fragmented in Phantom Snake's head ended up all being explained as real.
2. Was the gas-mask wearing child real? How could they fly? Parasites?
3. How are the Snakes' voices exactly the same?
4. We were in Africa and didn't get to see kid Raiden at all? I thought Eli was Raiden at first. Missed opportunity much?
5. Paz just... somehow survives GZ and comes back to sit on a bed the whole time? Something else I thought was a hallucination but seemed oddly real.
6. Same with Volgin. How is this scientifically possible? I'd say it's a hallucination, but tape recordings referred to him as real, unless Ocelot and co. knew about the hallucinations and simply played along with them.
7. Can someone explain exactly what real Big Boss' motives were in the end? Is he working with Zero? What's their ultimate goal? Why does Phantom Big Boss go on to be a villain in MG1 and real Big Boss in MG2?
8. Can anyone remind me of Ocelot's actual alignment? What does he want?
Other than that, another great postmodern game from Kojima that truly bent the mind. A lot of my questions can be answered with the line "There is no truth, only interpretation" from the game, I'm sure.
1. I felt unsatisfied at how surreal the story was. What I chalked up to hallucinations due to the bone fragmented in Phantom Snake's head ended up all being explained as real.
2. Was the gas-mask wearing child real? How could they fly? Parasites?
3. How are the Snakes' voices exactly the same?
4. We were in Africa and didn't get to see kid Raiden at all? I thought Eli was Raiden at first. Missed opportunity much?
5. Paz just... somehow survives GZ and comes back to sit on a bed the whole time? Something else I thought was a hallucination but seemed oddly real.
6. Same with Volgin. How is this scientifically possible? I'd say it's a hallucination, but tape recordings referred to him as real, unless Ocelot and co. knew about the hallucinations and simply played along with them.
7. Can someone explain exactly what real Big Boss' motives were in the end? Is he working with Zero? What's their ultimate goal? Why does Phantom Big Boss go on to be a villain in MG1 and real Big Boss in MG2?
8. Can anyone remind me of Ocelot's actual alignment? What does he want?
Other than that, another great postmodern game from Kojima that truly bent the mind. A lot of my questions can be answered with the line "There is no truth, only interpretation" from the game, I'm sure.
Inferno313
Banned
You didn't finish all of the Extract Wandering Mother Base Soldiers side ops. Complete them, visit Paz after each completed one, listen to the tapes you get. This will reveal the truth about Paz.
Haunted
Member
1. I know what you mean, MGS always had pseudoscience explaining away magic, ghosts, vampires and zombies, but the better the realistic military action gets, the weirder these elements tend to stand out. Hallucinations were severely underutilised, a missed opportunity, really.
2. Yes, it's Psycho Mantis (from the first Metal Gear Solid). In MGS world, there are people with psychic powers.
3. Vocal cord surgery
4. Wiki says Raiden was born between 1983-1986, Africa gameplay takes place in 1984
5. Funnily enough, that's actually a hallucination, revealed when you complete her sidequest.
6. Not a hallucination. Again, supernatural powers.
7. 8. whatever
And no, most of your questions have actual, clearly defined answers. They're not good or satisfying answers because Kojima is a hack writer and his stories are full of plot holes, deus ex machinas and retcons, but you know.
Inferno313
Banned
Man, is that a common train of thought amongst Metal Gear fans? Because that bums me out. Those elements are, to me, what separates MGS from the overabundance of generic military games. In fact, I generally find Kojima's recent trend of over explaining those things with pseudo-science answers to be a detriment. Parasite Therapy and Nanomachines are the Midicholorians of the MGS world. I would honestly prefer if the games had more supernatural and surreal shit with less explanations.
Haunted
Member
I completely agree. We've had some fun with Lucas analogies earlier in this thread, from the apparent need to (over)explain everything to "shrinking" the world by making everyone related to everyone else.
Quality responses guys, much appreciated. I don't mind the surreal stuff in MGS, but it sticks out when so much else is explained by the game's science.
One other thing that's been bugging me quite a bit...
What's the consensus on why Kojima did what he did with this game's story? With the Phantom Snake? 90% of the game is almost meaningless as a character piece IF you disregard the postmodernism (we are Big Boss, etc).
Like, to me, this was the perfect game to show us building Outer Heaven, connecting the bridge to Metal Gear 1. Mother Base could have been exactly that. This was our chance to see the real Big Boss become the man that would eventually be hunted down in the original games. It could have ended with us overlooking our perfect, nationless state.
Instead we see a random man become haunted by demons, and revenge whilst Big Boss remains nonexistent, like he has been for the majority of the Solid saga, relegated to the backroom, to instruction manual blurbs...
I get that Phantom Snake is a man that's mean to represent us, as the player. Which is super smart as a piece of writing and I'm totally cool with that. Give me more of those Spec Ops: The Line vibes any day.
But it's wholly unsatisfying in its disregard as a conclusion to a longstanding series... as a Metal Gear Solid game that was marketed as a bridge to the story "gap."
It's satisfying from a symbolic perspective, like Batman. Big Boss is an idea, he's a legend, sure. But his character is chopped up in the game and used as a metaphorical writing stick rather than an emotionally congruent one in line with what audiences wanted.
Perhaps that's the point though? The line at the end from Big Boss to Phantom, "you're your own man." Perhaps Big Boss is meant to be that legend that we never fully get to be intimate with.
I suppose this is how people felt when MGS2 came out though. It's all apart of the Kojima charm.
One other thing that's been bugging me quite a bit...
What's the consensus on why Kojima did what he did with this game's story? With the Phantom Snake? 90% of the game is almost meaningless as a character piece IF you disregard the postmodernism (we are Big Boss, etc).
Like, to me, this was the perfect game to show us building Outer Heaven, connecting the bridge to Metal Gear 1. Mother Base could have been exactly that. This was our chance to see the real Big Boss become the man that would eventually be hunted down in the original games. It could have ended with us overlooking our perfect, nationless state.
Instead we see a random man become haunted by demons, and revenge whilst Big Boss remains nonexistent, like he has been for the majority of the Solid saga, relegated to the backroom, to instruction manual blurbs...
I get that Phantom Snake is a man that's mean to represent us, as the player. Which is super smart as a piece of writing and I'm totally cool with that. Give me more of those Spec Ops: The Line vibes any day.
But it's wholly unsatisfying in its disregard as a conclusion to a longstanding series... as a Metal Gear Solid game that was marketed as a bridge to the story "gap."
It's satisfying from a symbolic perspective, like Batman. Big Boss is an idea, he's a legend, sure. But his character is chopped up in the game and used as a metaphorical writing stick rather than an emotionally congruent one in line with what audiences wanted.
Perhaps that's the point though? The line at the end from Big Boss to Phantom, "you're your own man." Perhaps Big Boss is meant to be that legend that we never fully get to be intimate with.
I suppose this is how people felt when MGS2 came out though. It's all apart of the Kojima charm.
That list looks like he's lamenting the chapter 3 that never got started, let alone finished.
Inferno313
Banned
Let me see if I can dig up that excellent Giantbomb forum post analyzing the ending. However, the interpretation that a lot of us have taken here is that you still see Big Boss's turn, it's just from the perspective of the victim and not Big Boss, as the trailers implied.
Big Boss goes from swearing off nations at the end of MGS3 for how they used the Boss as a pawn in their battle for power, to someone who is so driven by his ideals that the people around him become pawns to him.
After being betrayed by Huey in Ground Zeroes, he's learned that to accomplish his ideals he has to put them ahead of the people around him.
He goes along with a plan that rewrites a person's entire life and history to place them in danger as his decoy, and that also leads to a massacre at a hospital. He's used the player as a pawn in the same way America used the Boss as a pawn, and he doesn't even realize that.
EDIT: Here's a great read on the twist: http://www.giantbomb.com/forums/met...-ultimate-ending-discussion-spoilers-1781915/
Why is Phantom the one shown as the demon throughout the game (and at the end after punching the glass) then? If he's a pawn, it's strange that he's the one being dragged through the dirt and showponied as the bad one, when Big Boss is meant to be by that interpretation.
Unless Phantom's visage being Big Boss' is symbolic of Big Boss himself turning corrupt.
And thanks for the article link! I'll give it a read.
Just to add my two cents in, by creating another "clone" of big boss and also manipulating a person into becoming a "snake" big boss becomes just like cipher and the patriots by recreating the Les enfant terribles project and the S3 plan with the creation of Venom snake.
Inferno313
Banned
Heh, apparently Kojima tweeted about a number of different "Chapter 3s" over the weekend, and r/neverbegameover is freaking out.
https://twitter.com/HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN/status/653203242478768128
https://twitter.com/HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN/status/653202598929920000
https://twitter.com/HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN/status/653234252603985920
https://twitter.com/HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN/status/653203242478768128
https://twitter.com/HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN/status/653202598929920000
https://twitter.com/HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN/status/653234252603985920
Modest Mauser
Member
He's just fucking with people. Probably salty Konami didn't give him another $40 million to make Chapter 3.
MAX PAYMENT
Member
Well that article was enlightening as all heck.
Cursing how I would've never known how deep things went if I hadn't read it though.
I actually didn't know that was an MSX at the end. That's insane.
By the way, do we find out who Skull Face is? Or is he meant to be a new character, a clean slate that represents the themes of MGSV? (Being without one's nation, language -- being just a skull, with no skin, etc.)
Cursing how I would've never known how deep things went if I hadn't read it though.
I actually didn't know that was an MSX at the end. That's insane.
By the way, do we find out who Skull Face is? Or is he meant to be a new character, a clean slate that represents the themes of MGSV? (Being without one's nation, language -- being just a skull, with no skin, etc.)
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
He's been falling since the end of MGS3. Dude kidnaps people to work in his own private army, employs child soldiers, builds a nuke and a Metal Gear. Hell, didn't he originally think the GZ mission was a whack job?
Like you said, this is the first time we've seen anything from outside his perspective.
Death Metalist
Member
Continuing Venom's legacy for world peace through music(Rock Band 4).
ShadowSoldier89
Member
this is one thing I dont get. You are seeing a bit of a downfall, and you are seeing big boss's downfall. The original Big Boss makes it clear that Venom is big boss now too, and this also cleans up the plot of MG1/2 a little by making the Big Boss in MG1 and MG2 different characters
Venom is anything but inconsequential
Completely agree with this. Only thing I'd add is instead of outright cutting current armored vehicle/prisoner rescue side ops I'd make them like dispatch missions, where you can do a random assortment (maybe just found on free roam), and they don't factor into completion progress at all. Then people that want to keep playing or extract some extra tanks/soldiers would be able to. Also make extreme, total stealth, and subsistence modes a toggle on each applicable mission like hard mode in GZ. Put a star or something next to it if you beat it or reward a S++ soldier for completion. Also add hard mode back.
A PC mod that did all of this (maybe added fast travel between LZs) would pretty much fix any pacing/structure issues I have with the game.
PetriP-TNT
Member
47 hours in and I just found the menu where you can customize your weapons