Just a very ham-fisted Lord of the Flies reference.
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Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
- Start date
Just a very ham-fisted Lord of the Flies reference.
GodzillaDB
Member
01) Skull Face was a Hungarian civilian that suffered extensive physical damage as a result of an Allied force bombing in World War II. Rendered congenital analgesia and psychologically influenced by his country being ruled by "foreign tongues" well into the Cold War, he ascended into the high ranks of the espionage world as an assassin for the Soviet Union but later defected to the West after successfully executing the assassination of Joseph Stalin. He managed to join the British SAS where he met his eventual commander, Major David Oh (Zero), who later promoted him as the lead officer for the elite XOF unit after both of them signed to the CIA. Skull Face's first assignment dealt with providing secretive on-site support for Naked Snake (Big Boss) throughout the events of MGS3: Snake Eater to ensure the success of his mission. Behind the scenes, Skull Face despised Major Zero over his desire to enact The Boss' will through totalitarianism and detested Big Boss by extension of being Zero's favorite "ally" even well after he split from Cipher/The Patriots over the unauthorized cloning experiments. He revered the power that language commanded amongst society and disliked the "loss of identity" that comes from outside governments exerting influence at the expense of culture, thus, favoring isolationism. He discretely funneled American funds to assist Code Talker when he stumbled across his vocal cord parasite research and managed to triumphantly infect Zero with a contaminated pen around the events of Ground Zeroes. His grand scheme was a convoluted attempt at ensuring cultural preservation through deterrence theory: the world will be plunged into chaos by using the vocal cord parasites to eradicate the English language as a result of its linguistic imperialism. Nations would ideally secure Walker Gears or miscellaneous Metal Gear tech amidst the pandemonium of their inability to communicate freely across borders and, consequently, a period of international isolationism will occur out of fear of mutually-assured destruction (MAD).
02) In Phantom Pain, Miller outright wanted to enact revenge on Skull Face/XOF for their destruction of Militaires Sans Frontières (MSF) and the physical torture he endured in their captivity. All the efforts throughout the game were to make certain their comrades were avenged before diverting back to re-establishing themselves as a private military/mercenary company. You were supposed to feel sympathetic to their cause since Miller and Big Boss (conversely the player) witnessed all the fruits of their labor from Peace Walker spilling into the sea; however, their desire for payback was supposed to lead them astray with unethical tactics but Kojima was too in love with his characters to portray them in a monstrous light and tried to evoke commiseration over them being pawns of Big Boss executing the doppelganger scheme. Ideologically, MSF and Diamond Dogs were the precursors of Outer Heaven which is an anarchist war-mongering machine by the time of the Zanzibar Land Disturbance (MG2: Solid Snake), but they were a "necessary evil" combating the efforts of Cipher from achieving an international dystopia ruled by an A.I. illuminati-esque entity by the time of Metal Gear Solid onward. They're retro-actively meant to serve as tragic characters since devoted fans are already aware of their fates before the narrative even unfolds.
03) Unless a future interquel clarifies otherwise, Huey manages to simply blend back into civilian life back in the United States. He successfully reunites with his biological son, Hal "Otacon" Emmerich, and remarries a British woman who gives birth to a daughter, Emma, shortly afterward. Unfortunately, Huey discovers that his son was having an affair with his step-mother in the late 1990s. He commits suicide by drowning himself in a pool while trying to unsuccessfully take his daughter with him in the process.
04) Colonel Volgin and Liquid Snake appear as a result of fan service wheres Psycho Mantis and Ocelot could've logically been used for the Soviet-Afghan War. Apparently, the former GRU officer was rendered comatose from the thunderbolt that struck him in the Shagohod finale. Soviet scientists recovered his body and conducted various experiments with him in the same facility that housed the "Third Child," Psycho Mantis. It's implied that the full potential of Mantis' psychokinetic abilities, fueled by immense hatred, were awakened by a combination of Big Boss/Venom Snake resurfacing back into the world of the living and Volgin still harboring abhorrence for the legendary soldier in a way reminiscent of "vengeful ghosts" in Japanese folklore. Mantis draws from the strongest source of antipathy to dictate his power which ranges between Volgin's corpse, Venom Snake, Skull Face and Eli (Liquid Snake) as signified by a couple of visual elements that faintly alter his appearance throughout the game. Unless I'm mistaken, Phantom Pain documents the first time Ocelot utilized self-hypnosis to gradually alter his personality throughout the remainder of the series. It gets a little bit laughable since he seemingly hypnotized Liquid Snake in MGS so that he could influence him during the Shadow Moses Incident according to the MGSV strategy guide.
05) Big Boss was discreetly building his own nation of mercenaries. Major Zero was responsible for ordering that the Medic be altered into Big Boss' doppelganger once the legendary soldier awakens from his coma. Although Zero had intended for this action to serve as a last ditch effort to make amends with his former ally, Big Boss decided to exploit the situation by allowing Venom Snake to parade on the world stage for Cipher while he built his true fortress of soldiers in Africa and, later, Central Asia. His desire to start anew basically betrayed his early comrades since he seemingly wasn't interested in leading the effort to take revenge of XOF over his own ideological endeavors.
Interesting. I was under the impression he went blind as a result of torture overtime. I do believe his literal lack of vision serves a symbolic purpose over his burning desire for revenge. Does anyone know off the bat where it's first suggested that Kazuhira has lost his sight before he makes the official announcement?
Venom might've been duped through Ocelot's hypnosis, but he ultimately took the heat on the world stage that Big Boss choose to not handle himself and put down the "ultimate" Metal Gear in the process. I don't believe he ever reciprocated any romantic feelings that Quiet developed as a result of his actions, which felt like compassion more so than anything purely affectionate, even when they're frolicking in the rain. He handled Huey's exile with the same amount of sympathy when Diamond Dogs was ready and willing to execute him. Despite Miller's accusations, the Mammal Pod did hold solid evidence that he committed voluntary manslaughter by allowing Dr. Strangelove to suffocate inside the machine in response to her refusal to left their son serve as a test pilot for ST-84 Metal Gear. Her death allotted Huey full authority over developing the project as well under supervision of Skull Face and XOF. Venom executing his own staff honestly felt like an arguably positive or ambiguous sequence, too. Code Talker acknowledges they're infected with a new strain which might not be curable and it's quickly deduced their escape could lead to contamination of the entire world.
I typed in Big Boss' real name, Jack, and I ball-parked an accurate birth date as well. Since Venom was supposed to already be brainwashed into thinking he was the real deal, I felt it wouldn't make sense otherwise to write anything else (although I expected it to serve as an easter egg similar to dog-tags in MGS2: Sons of Liberty in the end).
Moon_frogger
Member
Turn on subtitles and hit fast forward when you finish reading a line. It skips to the next line of dialogue.
I'm gonna put this post of mine from the MGSV controls thread here as well since it's maybe a more relevant place for this heap o' words about game design in MGSV:
Yep, nailed it.
You mention Arsenal in MGS4 and I agree with you about that being a great area in that game, but it's a prime example for showing why MGS5 is even better. In MGS4 the frogs are scripted completely, they will always appear when you hit certain points. Basically the game cheats, and you can't out-plan the enemies until after you trigger them.
This type of AI cheating is all over MGS4 and MGS2 to a lesser extent. Like the enemies spawning forever CoD style in Act 1 and Act 2. Stealth an area but then, oops- time to infinitely spawn more enemies directly in front of or behind Snake. This is aggravating as hell. What's amazing about MGSV is doesn't do that type of scripting with very few exceptions (usually involving prisoners). Guards have patrols they go on without the psychic AI bullshit. And the areas are just as tense to sneak through. If a guard comes through and finds a body it's because it was a long range recon patrol that always would, or a set shift change that'd always occur regardless of where the player is. This is brilliant because it allows one to plan, yet also be surprised by enemies in a fair way.
I know this is a thread for the controls, but since a lot of people aren't staying just to that topic I just gotta say: MGSV doesn't get enough credit for how great the systems of AI it has work, and how it juggles them. You have tons of AI soldiers in an area, with great reactions to pretty much everything the player does. From firing a silenced gun, seeing missing supplies, missing vehicles, seeing a box move, etc. The AI also multitasks. If a soldier thinks he sees a suspicious individual, and then hears a noise he may look in the noise's direction briefly, but then will go right back to investigating the more important suspicious individual rather than forgetting about them (like GZ and previous games). On top of that it also is keeping track of the AI on long patrols, and state of alert in other bases.
Just having all that would already make the game great AI wise. But there's so much more. There's other AI going, AI buddies are all pretty great. And the enemy AI can actually see them, no Last of Us style invisible buddies here. If the soldiers see Quiet they'll react, same if she knocks someone down while traveling. You can recreate the scripted CoD "you take the one on the left, I'll take the right one" at any time. D-walker will be destroyed on sight. If the enemies see d-dog they'll shoo him away. If they're searching for Snake they'll ask "Hey boy, smell someone?", or if d-dog charges they'll react accordingly and shoot. There's multiple levels to each interaction accounted for and it makes the game feel great to interact in. Sure D-dog will run around and into guards as a big dog would, but you can tell him to sit and it's pretty minor considering the amount of ground and obstacles he and Snake can traverse. This interaction continues with the wild animals around. The AI will engage each threat accordingly, and separately. This allows the player to use the animals, buddies, and helicopter to all be diversions.
And one more thing, having a separate alert and combat alert is brilliant and makes that possible. It works a lot better than the way MGS4 shoe-horned the old one into its battlefields. And even if one uses a weapon and shoots at enemies from a distance and are not seen, if you keep firing they'll pick up on the location the fire is originating from blindly return fire even if they don't know for sure the player is there exactly. It's a lot more fair then them just knowing like the old games and getting an alert while still offering some resistance to just sniping everything. Oh and how the enemy fights in a combat alert is also great, once Snake breaks line of sight they will assume he's in that area, they won't psychically know if he went somewhere else unless they see him go there. Watching them shoot the hell out where I used to be while sneaking behind them is a thrill. Things like decoys give great ways to test and explore this.
Combine these controls and AI systems and you've got something that is fun to play regardless of environment. That said, I'd put the level design of the bases in mission 3, 4, 6, 9, 12, 13, 16, 28, 30, and 35 up against any of the areas in MGS4. MGS4 offering similar advances in tech, similarly large areas, and being known for similarly good level design as the previous games.
In fact, let's compare the traveling through the power plant area and mansion to the Laughing Octopus battle (arguably the best of the beauty core) in Act 2 of MGS4 to Mission 6 "Where the bees sleep" in MGSV. So the areas themselves are similarly large and filled \ as many nooks, hidden goodies, and secret paths. Both have small buildings that can be entered. The rewards for exploring those areas in MGS4 are chaff grenades, prisoners to save, ipod tracks, and guns. MGSV is similar and saturated with rewards like radios, soldiers, prisoners, diamonds, and materials. They've got the same patrolling helicopter and heavy enemy presence, etc. Although mission 6 does without the bullshit infinitely re-spawning like in 4.
If the player takes out the snipers on the bridge in MGSV, they accomplished something, same if they shoot down the helicopter. The game rewards them with less threats in the area and more points. If they extracted the soldiers, potentially new soldiers with cool skills as well. If the player takes out the snipers in the towers in the area past the power plant in MGS4, another one will magically appear 1 minute later and knowingly take the dead or knocked out soldiers place. One gets nothing other than the drebin points if for picking up his gun before he gets there. Shitty risk reward there. Coming across the helicopter in mission 6, its patrol is actually a serious concern. In daylight it can easily spot the player if they're anything but prone. If it does get alerted and the player hasn't brought a missile launcher Snake is fucked in a fight. Unless they call in a launcher and avoid it in combat until they can retrieve it. If one manages to sneak by, it's a real relief. Take it out, and it really feels like something was an accomplished. The threat is removed permanently and the player get points towards rank and achieve a hidden side objective for it. Now let's compare that to MGS4's patrolling chopper. This might as well be a prop. It can't see Snake unless it's an alert. It doesn't even shoot at the rebels if I recall correctly. If the player decides to destroy it they effortlessly go into inventory, equip a missile launcher, and hit with ease since it moves so slowly. Then they get some drebin points. woo. Oh and then in another minute the same helicopter comes and takes it's place. :/
So okay, what about those prisoners? That's where MGS4 should shine given the emphasis put on the battlefield. In 4 prisoners are about to be executed. Sneak by or risk detection to save them. Saving these initial prisoners gets outfit and shotgun, pretty good. But past that the rebels come in to help whether saved or not, but still it's a good sandbox where the player gets to figure out how they want to save them. Saving further prisoners doesn't offer any reward, they will just run off screen or get shot immediately. Although, if Snake helps them take out the power plant (the only way to stop the infinite soldiers in that area) it'll leave have an extra path without enemies an access to a area with a stinger. Also a decent reward (well not the stinger, that's pretty worthless compared to the Javelin). Now to the prisoner in MGSV, sneak to the bridge and one can see him getting water-boarded and interrogated (this is actually the animation ripped directly from a cutscene in the e3 redband trailer, just with soviets instead of marines). Can choose to save him there by rushing over or can mark him and watch him lead me directly to the mission objective. The key difference here is this all very subtle, if the player doesn't carefully scope out the area they may never see this prisoner, it doesn't cut to a cutscene and throw the stakes in anyone's face. Rather, even noticing the prisoner is a reward for observant players. This is the thing that makes V so controversial. Some want that cutscene, they don't want to potentially miss a cool gameplay gimmick. Others like having to earn that intel, and become more engaged from knowing they found something on their own. In any case if tracked the prisoner he will eventually lead the soldiers on a windy path to the Honey Bee, where they'll execute him. Orthe player can set up a trap for the guards and extract him. The main reward at stake here is the location of the hidden mission objective, getting a most likely good soldier and completing another hidden extra objective. Certainly a pretty good reward in it's own right since the caverns are big and double back a lot. Seems like a wash design wise since both offer a lot to do with the prisoner.
So what about exploring? As pointed out, both areas in the games offer substantial shortcuts if you explore. Both offer rewards in terms of hidden items. Diamonds and materials found are arguably more valuable due to the improved economy over 4, which basically gives infinite drebin points. But MGS4 does give out that shotgun and chaff grenades, unique items that can't be found elsewhere. The rest of the guns are basically worthless though, and MGS5 has similar things with blueprints or prisoners that can make new guns, but not in this mission. So it seems about the same to me.
So then there's the boss encounters, vs. Skulls and Laughing Octopus, respectively. First time through, Octopus is definitely more substantial, with all her tricks and such. And the Frogs offer a nice chance to potentially sneak up on them for a change rather than just shooting, the only place with really varied tactics possible in the fight. I have to give the gimmicks and bombast to Octopus certainly, hiding as a dead enemy or a painting, its great! But I really like the encounter with the skulls too. Because it has the one thing the actual fight with Octopus is lacking, a myriad of ways to take her down. With the Skulls the player is given an immediate choice, use the honey bee or not. If used it will mean be throwing away a lot of mission points. But if one doesn't care about rank it's got a great weapon to use. Miller also makes it clear running is a viable and safe tactic and that meaning the potential is there to run or sneak past the skulls. On top of that there's even more options, not spelled out explicitly. Such as the way I went my first time through, my plan was to try using an LMG but that fell through and I figured the fight out in a different way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlPTn7u3IvM
Dying a few times and then discovering I could counter their attacks and take them out in a smooth and cinematic fashion was extremely rewarding. It made me feel even better than after beating Octopus, and the things I did in her fight like figuring out that comically huge Mark II was the boss and not actually Otacon. Because I figured it out, the game didn't even tell me that was an option. Of course, the reward comes because it is all optional.
MGS4 ensures the player sees that cool moment, makes them see it. V has those moments too, but leaves them to be found or potentially missed by the player. Making the experiences far more subjective in it versus 4. I think that's one reason opinions on it vary so wildly. If someone fought the Skulls in a different way and their fight sucked, was unsatisfying, left them hollow- that's obviously a valid experience and feeling. Whereas everyone is basically going to get the same fight with Octopus. Maybe they a gun that damaged her blue bar instead, but the actual actions of how they did it will pretty much be the same. Even hitting her with an assault rifle vs a LMG doesn't really change the speed of the fight (unlike with skulls where an LMG tears them up in mission 6 as I later found going back to retry that strategy from earlier). And that's another big thing, anyone can go back and try a different, more fun strategy with them. As opposed to Octopus which is lacking in that department compared to previous MGS bosses. This difference of letting the player discover vs. force feeding carries into the other things I mentioned. It's why the soldiers infinitely respawn in MGS4, the games wants to make sure the player sees them, to know wow, this place is battlefield! Same reason the Frogs are scripted to appear in Act 5 as the player sneaks through, to make sure they all have the same tense experience of a frog squad patrolling right past them. MGSV is confident enough in its gameplay and advanced AI systems to know someone sneaking through OKB0 is going to have that tense moment if they choose to.
So yeah, I guess I'm not seeing the gulf in scenario and level design quality between this and other recent MGS games people talk about. I see it as a different approach to how it is presented, but the core quality is still there and just as good. Players just might not see it depending on how they play.
Okay there, huuge off-topic rant that no one will probably read over.
Back on topic of controls: being able to cqc from the ground is such a small, yet very welcome change. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCISJDiAEco
The level design is excellent in this game. Each installation feels unique, with multiple ways in and out, routes around/over/under enemies, makeshift cover with hiding places, lights to shoot out, distractions to create, etc.
Some favorites that come to mind (and the names allude me, being in a foreign tongue):
A terraced hillside village with layered and overlapping housing, with wraparound decks and hilly alleyways, rife with sniper perches and lighting to shoot out; a camp in a wetland connected by boardwalks lined with tiki torches, with rolling hills and dense forest on the perimeter and outposts throughout; a collapsed palace with interconnected rooms and floors bridged by rubble; an intricate cave system and the camp at its exterior, with two distinct paths around the perimeter; a quarry with descending layers and backdoor exits; the oilfield with its interior/exterior pathways and multi-level backend; a Fallingwater-esque mansion at the crossroads of a rugged mountain path to the north, and a three-pronged river valley with outposts, lush jungles, and hidden waterfall path to the south; and of course OKB Zero with its many approaches.
These are just the first that spring to mind. I thoroughly enjoyed all of them. Many of the installations feel similarly complex to Arsenal Gear in MGS4, which was arguably the best-designed level in that game.
And when you go for the optional mission tasks, it's neat how much variety they pack into them. I really came to appreciate the open world in the many instances where you had to stalk targets from one installation to the next, find chokepoints to sabotage or stall enemy movements, or deduce the optimal path to stop an execution or rescue an escapee. Scripted moments play out differently depending on when and where certain characters meet each other, and eavesdropping on them without arousing suspicion can turn a seemingly routine mission into a detective yarn with its share of sleuthing. I love how complex and nonlinear many of the missions can be. High potential for replay here.
Yep, nailed it.
You mention Arsenal in MGS4 and I agree with you about that being a great area in that game, but it's a prime example for showing why MGS5 is even better. In MGS4 the frogs are scripted completely, they will always appear when you hit certain points. Basically the game cheats, and you can't out-plan the enemies until after you trigger them.
This type of AI cheating is all over MGS4 and MGS2 to a lesser extent. Like the enemies spawning forever CoD style in Act 1 and Act 2. Stealth an area but then, oops- time to infinitely spawn more enemies directly in front of or behind Snake. This is aggravating as hell. What's amazing about MGSV is doesn't do that type of scripting with very few exceptions (usually involving prisoners). Guards have patrols they go on without the psychic AI bullshit. And the areas are just as tense to sneak through. If a guard comes through and finds a body it's because it was a long range recon patrol that always would, or a set shift change that'd always occur regardless of where the player is. This is brilliant because it allows one to plan, yet also be surprised by enemies in a fair way.
I know this is a thread for the controls, but since a lot of people aren't staying just to that topic I just gotta say: MGSV doesn't get enough credit for how great the systems of AI it has work, and how it juggles them. You have tons of AI soldiers in an area, with great reactions to pretty much everything the player does. From firing a silenced gun, seeing missing supplies, missing vehicles, seeing a box move, etc. The AI also multitasks. If a soldier thinks he sees a suspicious individual, and then hears a noise he may look in the noise's direction briefly, but then will go right back to investigating the more important suspicious individual rather than forgetting about them (like GZ and previous games). On top of that it also is keeping track of the AI on long patrols, and state of alert in other bases.
Just having all that would already make the game great AI wise. But there's so much more. There's other AI going, AI buddies are all pretty great. And the enemy AI can actually see them, no Last of Us style invisible buddies here. If the soldiers see Quiet they'll react, same if she knocks someone down while traveling. You can recreate the scripted CoD "you take the one on the left, I'll take the right one" at any time. D-walker will be destroyed on sight. If the enemies see d-dog they'll shoo him away. If they're searching for Snake they'll ask "Hey boy, smell someone?", or if d-dog charges they'll react accordingly and shoot. There's multiple levels to each interaction accounted for and it makes the game feel great to interact in. Sure D-dog will run around and into guards as a big dog would, but you can tell him to sit and it's pretty minor considering the amount of ground and obstacles he and Snake can traverse. This interaction continues with the wild animals around. The AI will engage each threat accordingly, and separately. This allows the player to use the animals, buddies, and helicopter to all be diversions.
And one more thing, having a separate alert and combat alert is brilliant and makes that possible. It works a lot better than the way MGS4 shoe-horned the old one into its battlefields. And even if one uses a weapon and shoots at enemies from a distance and are not seen, if you keep firing they'll pick up on the location the fire is originating from blindly return fire even if they don't know for sure the player is there exactly. It's a lot more fair then them just knowing like the old games and getting an alert while still offering some resistance to just sniping everything. Oh and how the enemy fights in a combat alert is also great, once Snake breaks line of sight they will assume he's in that area, they won't psychically know if he went somewhere else unless they see him go there. Watching them shoot the hell out where I used to be while sneaking behind them is a thrill. Things like decoys give great ways to test and explore this.
Combine these controls and AI systems and you've got something that is fun to play regardless of environment. That said, I'd put the level design of the bases in mission 3, 4, 6, 9, 12, 13, 16, 28, 30, and 35 up against any of the areas in MGS4. MGS4 offering similar advances in tech, similarly large areas, and being known for similarly good level design as the previous games.
In fact, let's compare the traveling through the power plant area and mansion to the Laughing Octopus battle (arguably the best of the beauty core) in Act 2 of MGS4 to Mission 6 "Where the bees sleep" in MGSV. So the areas themselves are similarly large and filled \ as many nooks, hidden goodies, and secret paths. Both have small buildings that can be entered. The rewards for exploring those areas in MGS4 are chaff grenades, prisoners to save, ipod tracks, and guns. MGSV is similar and saturated with rewards like radios, soldiers, prisoners, diamonds, and materials. They've got the same patrolling helicopter and heavy enemy presence, etc. Although mission 6 does without the bullshit infinitely re-spawning like in 4.
If the player takes out the snipers on the bridge in MGSV, they accomplished something, same if they shoot down the helicopter. The game rewards them with less threats in the area and more points. If they extracted the soldiers, potentially new soldiers with cool skills as well. If the player takes out the snipers in the towers in the area past the power plant in MGS4, another one will magically appear 1 minute later and knowingly take the dead or knocked out soldiers place. One gets nothing other than the drebin points if for picking up his gun before he gets there. Shitty risk reward there. Coming across the helicopter in mission 6, its patrol is actually a serious concern. In daylight it can easily spot the player if they're anything but prone. If it does get alerted and the player hasn't brought a missile launcher Snake is fucked in a fight. Unless they call in a launcher and avoid it in combat until they can retrieve it. If one manages to sneak by, it's a real relief. Take it out, and it really feels like something was an accomplished. The threat is removed permanently and the player get points towards rank and achieve a hidden side objective for it. Now let's compare that to MGS4's patrolling chopper. This might as well be a prop. It can't see Snake unless it's an alert. It doesn't even shoot at the rebels if I recall correctly. If the player decides to destroy it they effortlessly go into inventory, equip a missile launcher, and hit with ease since it moves so slowly. Then they get some drebin points. woo. Oh and then in another minute the same helicopter comes and takes it's place. :/
So okay, what about those prisoners? That's where MGS4 should shine given the emphasis put on the battlefield. In 4 prisoners are about to be executed. Sneak by or risk detection to save them. Saving these initial prisoners gets outfit and shotgun, pretty good. But past that the rebels come in to help whether saved or not, but still it's a good sandbox where the player gets to figure out how they want to save them. Saving further prisoners doesn't offer any reward, they will just run off screen or get shot immediately. Although, if Snake helps them take out the power plant (the only way to stop the infinite soldiers in that area) it'll leave have an extra path without enemies an access to a area with a stinger. Also a decent reward (well not the stinger, that's pretty worthless compared to the Javelin). Now to the prisoner in MGSV, sneak to the bridge and one can see him getting water-boarded and interrogated (this is actually the animation ripped directly from a cutscene in the e3 redband trailer, just with soviets instead of marines). Can choose to save him there by rushing over or can mark him and watch him lead me directly to the mission objective. The key difference here is this all very subtle, if the player doesn't carefully scope out the area they may never see this prisoner, it doesn't cut to a cutscene and throw the stakes in anyone's face. Rather, even noticing the prisoner is a reward for observant players. This is the thing that makes V so controversial. Some want that cutscene, they don't want to potentially miss a cool gameplay gimmick. Others like having to earn that intel, and become more engaged from knowing they found something on their own. In any case if tracked the prisoner he will eventually lead the soldiers on a windy path to the Honey Bee, where they'll execute him. Orthe player can set up a trap for the guards and extract him. The main reward at stake here is the location of the hidden mission objective, getting a most likely good soldier and completing another hidden extra objective. Certainly a pretty good reward in it's own right since the caverns are big and double back a lot. Seems like a wash design wise since both offer a lot to do with the prisoner.
So what about exploring? As pointed out, both areas in the games offer substantial shortcuts if you explore. Both offer rewards in terms of hidden items. Diamonds and materials found are arguably more valuable due to the improved economy over 4, which basically gives infinite drebin points. But MGS4 does give out that shotgun and chaff grenades, unique items that can't be found elsewhere. The rest of the guns are basically worthless though, and MGS5 has similar things with blueprints or prisoners that can make new guns, but not in this mission. So it seems about the same to me.
So then there's the boss encounters, vs. Skulls and Laughing Octopus, respectively. First time through, Octopus is definitely more substantial, with all her tricks and such. And the Frogs offer a nice chance to potentially sneak up on them for a change rather than just shooting, the only place with really varied tactics possible in the fight. I have to give the gimmicks and bombast to Octopus certainly, hiding as a dead enemy or a painting, its great! But I really like the encounter with the skulls too. Because it has the one thing the actual fight with Octopus is lacking, a myriad of ways to take her down. With the Skulls the player is given an immediate choice, use the honey bee or not. If used it will mean be throwing away a lot of mission points. But if one doesn't care about rank it's got a great weapon to use. Miller also makes it clear running is a viable and safe tactic and that meaning the potential is there to run or sneak past the skulls. On top of that there's even more options, not spelled out explicitly. Such as the way I went my first time through, my plan was to try using an LMG but that fell through and I figured the fight out in a different way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlPTn7u3IvM
Dying a few times and then discovering I could counter their attacks and take them out in a smooth and cinematic fashion was extremely rewarding. It made me feel even better than after beating Octopus, and the things I did in her fight like figuring out that comically huge Mark II was the boss and not actually Otacon. Because I figured it out, the game didn't even tell me that was an option. Of course, the reward comes because it is all optional.
MGS4 ensures the player sees that cool moment, makes them see it. V has those moments too, but leaves them to be found or potentially missed by the player. Making the experiences far more subjective in it versus 4. I think that's one reason opinions on it vary so wildly. If someone fought the Skulls in a different way and their fight sucked, was unsatisfying, left them hollow- that's obviously a valid experience and feeling. Whereas everyone is basically going to get the same fight with Octopus. Maybe they a gun that damaged her blue bar instead, but the actual actions of how they did it will pretty much be the same. Even hitting her with an assault rifle vs a LMG doesn't really change the speed of the fight (unlike with skulls where an LMG tears them up in mission 6 as I later found going back to retry that strategy from earlier). And that's another big thing, anyone can go back and try a different, more fun strategy with them. As opposed to Octopus which is lacking in that department compared to previous MGS bosses. This difference of letting the player discover vs. force feeding carries into the other things I mentioned. It's why the soldiers infinitely respawn in MGS4, the games wants to make sure the player sees them, to know wow, this place is battlefield! Same reason the Frogs are scripted to appear in Act 5 as the player sneaks through, to make sure they all have the same tense experience of a frog squad patrolling right past them. MGSV is confident enough in its gameplay and advanced AI systems to know someone sneaking through OKB0 is going to have that tense moment if they choose to.
So yeah, I guess I'm not seeing the gulf in scenario and level design quality between this and other recent MGS games people talk about. I see it as a different approach to how it is presented, but the core quality is still there and just as good. Players just might not see it depending on how they play.
Okay there, huuge off-topic rant that no one will probably read over.
Back on topic of controls: being able to cqc from the ground is such a small, yet very welcome change. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCISJDiAEco
I just died a little inside watching this trailer again. What a wasted potential this game was. It's sad.
You know, I actually really appreciate what they did for him, in that they gave him a body that looks like it does belong to an older man. Venom/Big Boss aren't young bucks by any stretch of the word. It's believable.
meltingparappa
Member
Wow. You made a canon choice, as far as I'm concerned.
The problem with MGSV is we are getting mixed messages and not enough answers, some things are intentional, Kojima is a man who is OCD about detail (He spent time testing every hanging area in the Shadow Moses section of MGS4 for example) We know this, he will comb every inch of his games.
So some things to me are intentional, DD containers in OKBZero and so on, Skullface's chopper number being an ID for a Anti-psychotic drug, there is an underlying story here we are sort of missing because we think that everything that is not real or a hallucination should be completely obvious to us or sort of made clear as a "This is not real" thing, but I don't think that's true, the thing about mental disorders is generally the victim doesn't know he is seeing things that aren't real, if you rewatch the Paz cutscenes, when Ocelot and Miller talk, I truly feel like they are actually talking to Venom about his own mind and how everything might actually be way different than it looks, the problem is however, the way that the game is structured messes with the themes of things that are not how they seem as you start merging Kojima telling a story to you non-verbally with "Oh the game is unfinished, this is probably incomplete content or re-used assets or whatever".
There is more going on in MGSV than people realize, it's just not in the way we want/hope, and it's hard to tell what is and isn't suppose to be as it's all too easy to be cynical, but Kojima is a details man, always has been.
So some things to me are intentional, DD containers in OKBZero and so on, Skullface's chopper number being an ID for a Anti-psychotic drug, there is an underlying story here we are sort of missing because we think that everything that is not real or a hallucination should be completely obvious to us or sort of made clear as a "This is not real" thing, but I don't think that's true, the thing about mental disorders is generally the victim doesn't know he is seeing things that aren't real, if you rewatch the Paz cutscenes, when Ocelot and Miller talk, I truly feel like they are actually talking to Venom about his own mind and how everything might actually be way different than it looks, the problem is however, the way that the game is structured messes with the themes of things that are not how they seem as you start merging Kojima telling a story to you non-verbally with "Oh the game is unfinished, this is probably incomplete content or re-used assets or whatever".
There is more going on in MGSV than people realize, it's just not in the way we want/hope, and it's hard to tell what is and isn't suppose to be as it's all too easy to be cynical, but Kojima is a details man, always has been.
erotic grandpa
Member
Oh god, now it seems so obvious.
btw. I was kind of disappointed that Venom's "horn" never changes throughout the game. Turns out there actually is a mechanic that makes it grow the more evil stuff you do. I guess I was just too much of a nice player.
That is a good point. I thought almost everything Venom sees is real since it was often acknowledged by Kaz and Ocelot. But the last Paz cutscene reveals that even their presence doesn't mean anything. It kind of puts a lot of the seemingly supernatural stuff into question.
They gave him a body that doesn't seem to belong to his head ... which sort of makes sense, I guess. The Phantom Pain should have been a game about Big Boss being self-concious about his low resolution upper body.
I do appreciate that he's not super ripped, though. He looks like just a soldier dude.
This video is very old, but I gave it a watch after reminding myself that we won't be getting another Metal Gear game by the original author, and it gave me some massive goosebumps. Truly a fantastic series, and one of my favorites of all time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx2_C--BE60
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx2_C--BE60
Game should be called The Phantom Gains
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Finally finished Mission 46 after like 70 hours played.
I heard people hating on the ending, but I thought that was pretty awesome! Leaves a lot of questions, of course, but I thought it was a great way to conclude this part of the story.
I heard people hating on the ending, but I thought that was pretty awesome! Leaves a lot of questions, of course, but I thought it was a great way to conclude this part of the story.
The more I think about it the more I feel like Venom really might be the soldier always in the background of the chopper in GZ, he's on the main menu mirroring Big Boss instead of the Medic, which has always been kind of weird to me
The other thing that makes me buy into the theory is the fact Medic is literally Ishmael 9 years ago.
So the question is, how can Ishmael be both Medic and Big Boss while Venom is also the medic with a different face he apparently had all along? Do you see the problem here?
The other thing that caught my attention was the fact when you watch the Paz cutscene in broad daylight.
The other thing that makes me buy into the theory is the fact Medic is literally Ishmael 9 years ago.
Someone on reddit checked out the model. Ishmael in TPP without his bandages, he has Medic's face but with a receded hairline to look older.
So the question is, how can Ishmael be both Medic and Big Boss while Venom is also the medic with a different face he apparently had all along? Do you see the problem here?
The other thing that caught my attention was the fact when you watch the Paz cutscene in broad daylight.
Big Boss, Soldier & Paz are the only people in the scene at first, I bought this up the other day but I wanted to draw attention to this because it seems like it's this way for a reason, this soldier actually seems to stare at Big Boss all throughout the entire cutscene.
His body doesn't look particularly old, though I do appreciate that they tried to make his proportions more believably athletic. Though I still think having the actual Big Boss look identical to his GZ model without a single grey hair was a bizarre decision - as it is, he doesn't age at all between 1964 and 1984; then turns into Sean Connery in time for 1995.
The nipples I've lost...they won't stop hurting.
The official guide says that that soldier (the only one who save himself by getting in Big Boss's chopper) is Mosquito.
You know what is interesting, Venom and GZ Big Boss have different body shapes, GZ Big Boss was bulkier, the GZ Suit on venom is actually thinner overall.
And big boss does age, if you compare MGS3 to PW and GZ, he is aging noticeably in that time, he was only about 30 in MGS3 and 39 or 40 in GZ, so he looks about right, the issue though is the 9 years between GZ and TPP that his aging becomes a little weird, Venom I kind of get because his face was sculptured through surgery so it might be a little odd, and he actually does look like shit with the scars and stuff, he definitely looks like he aged in 9 years, but the fact real Big Boss actually looks a bit younger/fresh faced is really odd.
but I could deal with all of this still if they had made it so when DD becomes Outer Heaven at the end he had aged into grey Boss. But instead we have the implication that we skipped to the 90s without venom aging in ANOTHER decade, which you know makes me wonder if there is more illusionary nonsense going on, they went to the effort of making Venom and BB have slightly different body shapes and yet can't give him some grey hair, so that discrepancy makes me wonder.
The entire game is a flashback to begin with, it zooms into the tape at the start from the weird bathroom looking room it ends in.
But how, where the hell did Mosquito go if he survived by escaping on the chopper? all the Motherbase soldiers were away from Motherbase when it fell under attack, how did he end up blaming Big Boss if he literally watched Big Boss fighting off XOF soldiers and escaped with him?
Well, Mosquito thinks that Big Boss sold them, so maybe when Big Boss and Venom were secretly transported to Cyprus he didn't get the whole picture of what really happened.
Who knows, that incident is portrayed very badly two choppers crash over the sea and nobody knows how they could save all those people from the water with just one man losing a hand and the rest that just got flash wounds with Big Boss's heart that stops just when Big Boss is in the hospital with Miller that is still wearing his glasses and Chico who died because yes i don't think that Chico is dead, otherwise there is no point for that hole in his chest.
Now that i think about it, what is behind the fact that in GZ every character that appears for the first time is presented with golden subtitles? In TPP that doesn't happen
mgs2master2
Banned
meltingparappa
Member
Hideo himself retweeted that, and it makes me happy.
Ah shite. When that trailer started I muted the TV and shut my eyes as I didn't want to be spoiled. That'll teach me. Still got about 30 side ops and several missions to S rank as well. Piss.
This is the thing. I love what's there and I think there's plenty there, but the execution is so fluffed in a bizarre way that what's not there really, really stands out. The gameplay is pretty holistically solid but the way the story fits in is just so... Not. I still like it, but it still has no impact, and obvious things are missing.
Don't have time to get full into it, but isn't the Ishmael face wi/ bandages just a head mask? There's that GIF of Kojima putting on the mask on one of those livestream shows. The whole Ishmael head is a mask/cast thing you put on. You seem to be confusing things here, anyway! I think it's pretty simple and all the model stuff is just ruse/complexity to make it harder to double guess before the twist happens.
That was my original thought and it probably is that, I just think it's weird they're using the face of a character who was unmasked and then masked but also has a different face.
Solideliquid
Member
You guys think the issues with the story portion of the game was by design or because of the issues between Kojima and Konami later in the development cycle?
The whole Konami debacle is likely to blame.
Kojima probably wanted way more time to get the game completed but instead was forced to release in a specific time window.
Can we discuss the whole Paz side ops situation? I'm of the mind that she's Venom Snake before Venom Snake if you get where I'm going. Obviously Kojima couldn't spell it out directly with a one to one correlation but she signifies a hint to his past. What does she symbolize? Yes, I've listened to the tapes but this is Metal Gear so there's always another explanation or interpretation.
Is there a detailed list of in-game hints that allude to the main thing people have speculated on since the game's first spoiler hit? Trying not to spoil for everyone else like myself still playing but know what's coming later on.
Is there a detailed list of in-game hints that allude to the main thing people have speculated on since the game's first spoiler hit? Trying not to spoil for everyone else like myself still playing but know what's coming later on.
meltingparappa
Member
I can't imagine what it's like to cobble together a "complete" story when you potentially have a ton of important elements at 40-80% completion. The fact that Chapter 51 isn't even closed to finish, and there's that monologue by Keifer that sounds like it could be an ending speech definitely make me impressed we were able to get whatever closure that we did, especially with working conditions as miserable as they were. Another year of development in a benevolent work atmosphere and I'm sure the last third of the game would be far closure to Kojima's original intention.
But this has been said a million times before and will be said a million times again.
toddhunter
Member
I "finished" the game last night and I'm still convinced we were meant to just get chapter 1 with our purchase, with chapter 2 and maybe 3 to follow in the coming years as different releases.
Just assume everything ends when chapter 1 does and the game stands alone as a great work. Sure we will never get the full answers now, but lets be honest, it was never going to make much sense anyway and we know where it ends up.
I think the Skullface transition is more to represent his and Venom's similarities in that they are both phantoms. In Skullface's own words before dying, he'll "vanish from human memory". Venom ultimately meets the same fate, not even Solid Snake is ever made aware of who he actually killed in the original MG.
Angry Fork
Member
Amazingly detailed post, thanks a lot for taking the time to respond, it explained everything for me.
What tweets are you referring to? Did he tweeted/hinted something about chapter 3?
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Not really. All that's said is that he'll side with the phantom and BB's sons over BB when the time comes. But by MGS1, BB and his Phantom are both thought to be dead. Why fight against Liquid too and side with the Phantom's killer? Liquid basically has the same plan that Miller and the Phantom were both into so much. Did he just want in on killing Ocelot?
miller is dead during mgs. i assume he buddies up with solid snake as a way of being against big boss now that venom is dead and that solid snake seems pretty good at killing big boss type people.
missed opportunity that the poop doesn't stain you and make you stinky
I tried rolling in it
Would be great with the chicken hat on and the guards laughing at you
This is my new fetish...
So he made 3 tweets within a few hours of eachother.
I forget the order exactly but
He tweeted about Starwars posters with C-3PO having a red arm like Snake, the poster has something about Vol. 3. in nice red letters
Then was tweeting about finding "The Killing" and how he has been wanting the set for a long time but that there's no season 3.
And then he was talking about E-cigerettes being in True Detective Season 2 Episode 3. (Which as it turned out was in Episode 2, not 3.)
It's probably nothing, but all the tweets are just riddled with people assuming he is trolling fans.
If you do it while wearing the Raiden costume, you'll actually come closer to realising Shinkawa's ambitions for the character than anyone else has ever done.
Considering how she produces energy, you'd basically be commanding her to breathe.
Death Metalist
Member
So, this game strangely made me love Paz as a character where as in PW I thought she was an annoying little shit. Her side ops thing is one of the best parts of MGS5 and a nice glimpse into Venom's self. I never finished her side ops because I read what happens when you do and what you get for it however, yesterday I did it and damn, her final tape is really something. Fantastic stuff.
I love that tape so much that I made a video of it.
If you had told me in the past I'd like an MGS codec so much I'd record it, I'd tell you you're crazy, lol.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
He didn't. Liquid killed Miller 3 days before the Shadow Moses Incident.
Between this and "Quiet acts like a daughter" this thread takes an unsettling turn.
Kojima knew what he was doing all these years. He just wanted this opportunity to forever mess with his fans. Such a fucking troll.