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[Games Bookstore]

Just watched the video and there is something I don't understand : if ps6 handlet struggle to run ps5 games (low power, low resolution...), how will it run ps6 games ???

I suspect (and I stress this is purely my opinion) it will work with PS6 games due to mandates from Sony to force developers to cater for all PS6 platforms, whereas at this point low power mode is purely optional and in a experimental testing phase.

 

[KeplerL2]

The PS6 handheld is going to have 6x less compute/memory bandwidth as the PS6 console. At least the Series S kept up with the One X. PS6 handheld is going to be weaker than PS5.

If a game is 1080p 30fps on PS6 then it's just not going to run on the handheld acceptably. Even 60fps games might struggle.


Doesn't Canis have lower memory bandwidth and less cores available for games than XSS? Some games might struggle no?

It's actually a bit higher mem BW if they use LP5X-9600, plus larger RDNA5 caches and improved compression means effective bandwidth is 50-100% higher than XSS.

 

[Miles708]

So if I get this right, Sony is going to mandate a low-spec mode for every developer in the same way Microsoft did for the series S, despite the disaster that that choice ended up being for Xbox?

An I missing something?

 

[Botan32]

It's actually a bit higher mem BW if they use LP5X-9600, plus larger RDNA5 caches and improved compression means effective bandwidth is 50-100% higher than XSS.

Do you think games will be cross-gen for a long time during the next generation, particularly because of the PS Portable, which will be similar to the PS5 and its user base ?

Or studios will quickly release full PS6 games?

 

[Ar¢tos]

I would prefer if the ps6 handheld would be used like a PocketStation for ps6 games instead of running extremely nerfed versions (that will limit the scope of main game too) of the games.
This with nothing being mandatory, devs decide what they want to do or not.

 

[Loxus]

"It is becoming glaringly obvious that Low-Power mode IS a Trojan Horse for getting PS6 Handheld support ready before its launch, and they honestly seemed a bit annoyed at how few devs directly support it so far."

If Sony doesn't optimize most of the games themselves, this handheld is going to struggle so hard.

Sony should have supported the Vita much more themselves with mobile and AA games to avoid this mess.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

Yeah game dev is currently so fast that sony had to bring potato portable hw and force parity with ps6 games

 

[Bojji]

PS5 is Zen2 8 cores/16 threads with 6.5 cores/13 threads available for games and 1.5 cores/3 threads reserved for OS.

PS6 handheld is 4 cores/8 threads Zen6c available for games and 2 cores/4 threads Zen6LP for OS.

PS6 is 8 cores/16 threads Zen6c available for games and 2 cores/4 threads Zen6LP for OS.

Thanks, that explains a lot.

Reduced performance cost normally means the highest quality but for that given hardware. This was what I was trying to explain with people trying to distance "tiny dlss" on fixed hardware as separate from "dlss".

But tiny DLSS sucks, especially when you have demanding games (like CP2077) using full DLSS3 on the same hardware.

 

[Karim]

Yeah game dev is currently so fast that sony had to bring potato portable hw and force parity with ps6 games

They can't mandate proper ps5 pro version for multiplat how they can force parity for ps6 handheld in more demanding game? If the engine is well scalable that's fine but I can't see any developer doing a special treatment for the ps6 portable which isn't already applied to a multiplat switch 2 port. Ps6 handheld is supposed to compete with the switch 2, it's not low end home console machine as Series S. I think people completely misinterpreted the easy transition which Sony tries to achieve between the ps6 and handheld multiplat development with forced parity.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Yeah. I don't think Devs will bother with handheld optimisation without funding and support from Sony.

I mean, we have no idea how this sells. If it's ps5 pro levels I don't think Devs will bother doing a good job and will just shit it out the door like series s ports.

If it sells a lot more than ps5 pro and the sales are there I'm sure more Devs will support it.

We need to know more to be honest. No point in making any real suggestions without knowing more.

 

[Tobimacoss]

PS5 is Zen2 8 cores/16 threads with 6.5 cores/13 threads available for games and 1.5 cores/3 threads reserved for OS.

PS6 handheld is 4 cores/8 threads Zen6c available for games and 2 cores/4 threads Zen6LP for OS.

PS6 is 8 cores/16 threads Zen6c available for games and 2 cores/4 threads Zen6LP for OS.

Didn't MLID say Orion has one of the Zen 6C cores disabled, so 7 Cores/14 threads available for games.

 

[PaintTinJr]

At a high level everything you said here sort of makes sense to me. But I refuse to believe it will work out that way, because at some point physics should matter right?

Your interpretation on what Mark Cerny said about the future of hardware technology and how things are slowing down and it has become harder and harder to get more performance between each generation makes sense. I for the life of me can't understand why sony would put out 2 devices at the same time that would be forced to play the same games when clearly one does not have the ability to do with the other can do.

There's no way somebody can explain to me how just lowering the resolution to 540p and then using fsr4 or pssr2 and upscaling it to 1080p would look and feel the same as that same game running on the PlayStation 6 with raytraced lighting, shadows, and AO rendered at 1080p and being upscaled to 4K at 60 frames per second can possibly work on both devices. Especially when that handheld device is operating at 20w whereas the PlayStation 6 is operating at 200w.

Does what I'm saying make any sense to anybody here? I mean ... That's an order of magnitude more wattage available to being used for the full console compared to the handheld. I feel like I'm living in Alice the Wonderland with people trying to convince me that the impossible is possible.

I get what you are saying, but it is the same QHD versus HD ready comparison between say UC on Vita and PS3. Visually the Vita version looks amazing via minification despite the resolution difference and the much lighter use of highly demanding fx that the PS3 UC games handle.

So the reality is that the tradeoff is again portability versus big screen experience. PS6 level PT is way beyond the portable power budget and even if it wasn't the minification automatically makes the subtlety of the PT benefit even harder to discern outside of a docked mode, so on the little screen, even using fallback raster faked GI or doing similar PS5 level RT via the radiance cores making up the difference and then a lightweight version of PSSR2 upscaling back to 1080p will give small screen visual parity with the big screen other than the very taxing PT capability that needs the big screen to show it off anyway.

 

[Romulus]

Still waiting on ps5 first party games. Then I can get excited about ps6 remasters of them.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Yeah. I don't think Devs will bother with handheld optimisation without funding and support from Sony.

I mean, we have no idea how this sells. If it's ps5 pro levels I don't think Devs will bother doing a good job and will just shit it out the door like series s ports.

If it sells a lot more than ps5 pro and the sales are there I'm sure more Devs will support it.

We need to know more to be honest. No point in making any real suggestions without knowing more.

We've already reached the end of the road for advance graphics to improve by eating 50-70% of your power budget on base rasterization and spending the remainder on advanced fx.

Sony won't need to mandate that developers make the best looking games on the main platform - to increase the chances of selling their games - because that's what they've been doing since the beginning of SNES/Mega Drive, and only by optimising the base game without advance graphics is the way they will achieve making the best looking games. They need as much resources as they can for AI upscaling/PT denoising and PT.

We are even at a unique point in which going below 720p/540p with superior AI upscaling recovers a three dimensional workload in resources saved, meaning this optimisation is the main method by which advance graphics can return to have multiple in gen graphics gens, like hardware gens used to, so the best devs will willingly do this work for the PS6 games and freely get the benefit on the PS6 Portable.

The PSSR2 update on the the PS5 Pro is likely to show a game like Demon's Souls combining the low power mode the new PSSR2 and with the left over resources a huge improvement in the lighting with the remaining resources IMO.

 

[Three]

Thanks, that explains a lot.



But tiny DLSS sucks, especially when you have demanding games (like CP2077) using full DLSS3 on the same hardware.

Cyberpunk is 30fps with drops to maintained 25fps in sections even then the low resolutions it has to drop to to maintain its fps still introduces those artifacts with "full dlss". At the end of the day with fixed hardware something has to give and devs make the choices that, to them, gives the best quality based on what they are aiming for. Whether that is 60fps, their fixed res targets, or whatever.

 

[Bojji]

Cyberpunk is 30fps with drops to maintained 25fps in sections even then the low resolutions it has to drop to to maintain its fps still introduces those artifacts with "full dlss". At the end of the day with fixed hardware something has to give and devs make the choices that, to them, gives the best quality based on what they are aiming for. Whether that is 60fps, their fixed res targets, or whatever.

Most drops in CP on S2 are CPU related, it's just too weak for this game (especially in DLC area). Even with issues (very low base res) full DLSS is still far better than this crap:

 

[Three]

Most drops in CP on S2 are CPU related, it's just too weak for this game (especially in DLC area). Even with issues (very low base res) full DLSS is still far better than this crap:

Sure, just like PSSR has very good game implementations and bad ones it's dependent on the dev too but "that crap" is still DLSS, just one where they made choices for their game, their frametime targets, resolution, optimisation ability etc. They obviously aim for "the highest quality at the lowest cost" with given fixed specs and get different results based on dev choices.

 

[Bojji]

Sure, just like PSSR has very good game implementations and bad ones it's dependent on the dev too but "that crap" is still DLSS, just one where they made choices for their game, their frametime targets, resolution, optimisation ability etc. They obviously aim for "the highest quality at the lowest cost" with given fixed specs and get different results based on dev choices.

It's DLSS by name only (and some parts of algorithm), if this was available on PC no one with respect for their eyes would use it. Cuts are too severe, it's even worse than FSR2 in some aspects.

"Developers making choices for the players" is often recipe for disaster, many games are released with dumb fuck configurations (looking at you From Software), just give players options...

 

[Three]

It's DLSS by name only (and some parts of algorithm), if this was available on PC no one with respect for their eyes would use it. Cuts are too severe, it's even worse than FSR2 in some aspects.

"Developers making choices for the players" is often recipe for disaster, many games are released with dumb fuck configurations (looking at you From Software), just give players options...

You're beginning to get choices to turn off specific upscaling in console games now too (no choice on Switch 2 yet) but for a curated experience you will always end up with these dev choices made for quality or performance modes, handheld vs docked and so on. If it's not the upscaler there will always be other choices too like motion blur or CA. Most people couldn't care less about tweaking though and would rather just enjoy the game the dev intended. It's like those who love Linux vs those who love iOS. some just couldn't care less about that "control" or "freedom" linux gives you. They prefer something that just works and prefer not fiddling with things.

 

[OLED_Gamer]

You're beginning to get choices to turn off specific upscaling in console games now too (no choice on Switch 2 yet) but for a curated experience you will always end up with these dev choices made for quality or performance modes, handheld vs docked and so on. If it's not the upscaler there will always be other choices too like motion blur or CA. Most people couldn't care less about tweaking though and would rather just enjoy the game the dev intended. It's like those who love Linux vs those who love iOS. some just couldn't care less about that "control" or "freedom" linux gives you. They prefer something that just works and prefer not fiddling with things.

So those people don't have to fiddle? Leave the "Advanced Options" for those who want to use them, and leave the "Performance" and "Quality" modes for the simpletons.

 

[Three]

So those people don't have to fiddle? Leave the "Advanced Options" for those who want to use them, and leave the "Performance" and "Quality" modes for the simpletons.

Yeah, more options aren't a bad thing. Never said I wouldn't welcome them. I'm saying most people don't care for them and gave an example where people are happy just using things like iOS because it "just works" for them.

Keep in mind that this does burden QA and support too if some combination of settings doesn't work as intended so options aren't without some cons too for development.

 

[Bojji]

You're beginning to get choices to turn off specific upscaling in console games now too (no choice on Switch 2 yet) but for a curated experience you will always end up with these dev choices made for quality or performance modes, handheld vs docked and so on. If it's not the upscaler there will always be other choices too like motion blur or CA. Most people couldn't care less about tweaking though and would rather just enjoy the game the dev intended. It's like those who love Linux vs those who love iOS. some just couldn't care less about that "control" or "freedom" linux gives you. They prefer something that just works and prefer not fiddling with things.

So those people don't have to fiddle? Leave the "Advanced Options" for those who want to use them, and leave the "Performance" and "Quality" modes for the simpletons.

Yeah, options locked in "advanced" menu are the way to go for power users.

Sony games don't have that but they (most of them) allow users to tailor experience to their needs, many options including 120Hz output, 40FPS options, RT on/off, unlocked framerate etc. This is how all games should launch, including Disable CA, Radial Blur, Motion Blur options.

PS5 Pro suffers sometimes from this when game launch with one bad performance profile (like MGS Delta and Avatar before patches).

 

[viveks86]

It's actually a bit higher mem BW if they use LP5X-9600, plus larger RDNA5 caches and improved compression means effective bandwidth is 50-100% higher than XSS.

Any insights on what Universal Compression is from a hardware standpoint? Are there new dedicated hardware compression/decompression blocks within the GPU? That sounds different from PS5's I/O decompression blocks… is it equivalent to Blackwell's DE and nvCOMP?

 

[Gaiff]

Yeah, options locked in "advanced" menu are the way to go for power users.

Sony games don't have that but they (most of them) allow users to tailor experience to their needs, many options including 120Hz output, 40FPS options, RT on/off, unlocked framerate etc. This is how all games should launch, including Disable CA, Radial Blur, Motion Blur options.

PS5 Pro suffers sometimes from this when game launch with one bad performance profile (like MGS Delta and Avatar before patches).

More options means more QA and more time spent implementing them for practically 0 return because 99% of the console crowd doesn't give a fuck about them. Quality and Performance Mode and leave it at that.

 

[Bojji]

More options means more QA and more time spent implementing them for practically 0 return because 99% of the console crowd doesn't give a fuck about them. Quality and Performance Mode and leave it at that.

That's bare minimum - assuming that both modes work correctly. With From Software games, every mode is fucked up...

 

[Karim]

Cyberpunk is 30fps with drops to maintained 25fps in sections even then the low resolutions it has to drop to to maintain its fps still introduces those artifacts with "full dlss". At the end of the day with fixed hardware something has to give and devs make the choices that, to them, gives the best quality based on what they are aiming for. Whether that is 60fps, their fixed res targets, or whatever.

But but Bonji is ended in my ignore list because he can only repeated just PSSR is broken where the DLSS is immaculate, you tell me his argument is unfair

 

[Bojji]

But but Bonji is ended in my ignore list because he can only repeated just PSSR is broken where the DLSS is immaculate, you tell me his argument is unfair

I don't think there are PS5 Pro games running in resolutions switch 2 was using here. But PSSR artifacts are clear as day even with more than 1080p internal rea, at least they are easy to detect...

Being ignored by you is like a badge of honor.

 

[Panajev2001a]

But PSSR artifacts are clear as day even with more than 1080p internal rea

"Mostly when the camera is still, better than native when camera is moving / game is in motion" … *be honest beckham.gif*.

 

[Karim]

"Mostly when the camera is still, better than native when camera is moving / game is in motion" … *be honest beckham.gif*.

Lol no way how many time you try to show to him some bright side of the pssr, you talking with a guy who said ps5 pro and pssr suck well before he owns one and he ended to spending 699 bucks practically just to continue even more It show to you how toxic and pathological can be the attitude of some people on the net. I mean spend so much money an hardware which you clearly despise wtf is wrong with some mind

 

[Bojji]

Lol you taking with a guy who said ps5 pro and pssr suck well before he owns one and he ended to spending 699 bucks practically just to have the excuse to continue to blame the hardware It show to you how toxic and pathological can be the attitude of some people on the net. I mean spend so much money an hardware which you clearly despise wtf is wrong with you.

Me despising PS5 Pro hardware is your imagination and persecution complex. It's still the best console to play games*

* Majority of them, unless super wise developers decide to use PSSR in games/engines that show problems with it.

 

[Zathalus]

"Mostly when the camera is still, better than native when camera is moving / game is in motion" … *be honest beckham.gif*.

It really depends on the game and implementation. Most UE5 games it looks terrible, even in motion. Other games it can look great. The biggest problem with PSSR is usually that boiling look in many games.

I'm sure PSSR2 is going to look miles better.

 

[Karim]

Me despising PS5 Pro hardware is your imagination and persecution complex. It's still the best console to play games*

* Majority of them, unless super wise developers decide to use PSSR in games/engines that show problems with it.

ps5 pro price announcement:

Yep, fuck that shit. My plans for PS5 Pro are out of the window. Next target - 5070ti/4080.

Bipolarism?

 

[Bojji]

So you see my posts!

 

[Karim]

So you see my posts!

Until you continue to post laugh reaction how I can't? You are so proud to be in my ignore list meanwhile you continue to read me, reply and quote me. WTF is wrong with you. Yeah another laugh gif. Are you sociopath or wat?