Moonjt9
No Silksong? = Delivering the pain.
After buying both ps4 pro and ps5 pro Honestly this really solidifies my conviction to skip ps6 launch and wait for Ps6 pro. Feels like the same trap that Xbox series x and s fell into.
[MLiD] PS6 & PSSR2 Dev Update
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
- Start date
- News Rumor Hype
viveks86
Member
Do you really think GAF would not find issues to rage about?If PSSR 2 delivers - and I really hope it does - what will some people rage about here?
Bojji
Member
Bojji
Member
Based on rumors there will be 2 separate devices (probably with similar launch date):
- PS6 Portable
- PS6 "normal"
And now we don't know what will happen next (for sure). PS6 Portable may have separate library (like Vita or PSP) or they will treat it like Series S/X - every game would have to work on both. If that's the case we have repeat of current gen where developers are held back by super weak device, in this case with 0.5 GPU power of regular PS5 (5-6x weaker than PS6 GPU).
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PSSR is the R&D for FSR4 and the collaboration. You are assuming they would get this same FSR4 quality if Sony wouldn't have researched PSSR first. What if AMD decides to lock FSR5 or other features in future cards (for example FP4)? Sony would get a full generation with FSR4? What about the handheld?
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5-6 weaker GPU and 4x lower resolution and probably half framerate. Why are you comparing directly the handheld console with a full desktop one?
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vivftp
Member
The portable will have the benefit of scaling to a locked lower resolution (likely 1080p) and will have PSSR2 and other advances like frame gen to help it punch well above its weight class. There are a lot of variables that could help the Portable to scale to the PS6 without hindering the PS6 itself. The fact that Sony are deeply involved in engineering the hardware and software along with AMD should give hope that they're aiming to minimize potential bottlenecks that the Portable could cause. Cerny is all about making devs lives easier and reducing bottlenecks and pressure points. It's logical to conclude that they'll be going into next gen with that same philosophy in mind.
kevboard
Member
no, I want a low spec anchor system that developers have to optimise for.
I love that the Series S exists, I am sad Sony didn't have a similar system this gen to make devs put even more effort into optimising their games (the Series S being the loser system sadly means they can just release sub-par ports and noone cares).
when devs are forced to optimise for a low spec machine, it means the high spec machines will get cleaner looking, better running games.
I would bet for example, that the Series S is one of the biggest factors in the trend of nearly every game this generation having a 60fps mode.
they already have to accommodate a system with only 1/3 the GPU power. so, making that Series S mode a tiny bit prettier and turning that into a performance mode is usually pretty straightforward.
so developers often have no excuse not to offer a 60fps mode... unless it's a CPU limit because UE5 sucks (see Hellblade 2)
the PS6 Portable would have a downgraded CPU as well, which means it would essentially guarantee a 60fps mode on all home console versions of games.
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Bojji
Member
Because IF devs are forced to make 1:1 games on both (like with Series consoles) then it's quite fucking relevant.
Reality is: many games on PS6 will have 1080p internal resolution, where you go from that with 5-6x weaker hardware?
vivftp
Member
A PS6 game with a 1080p internal resolution will be scaled up to 4k via PSSR2. That same game on the Portable will have an even lower internal resolution on the Portable and will be scaled up to 1080p via PSSR2.
Bojji
Member
5x less internal resolution is below 540p. Ok.
Felessan
Member
30fps 400p mode with some cuts in setting?
You don't really need 1080p internal resolution for 8" screen
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vivftp
Member
DLSS 2.0 from 5 years ago could already convincingly upscale 540p to 1080p, do you think the next gen of PSSR will have trouble doing that?
Bojji
Member
Of course, but at the same time there are limits what scaling can do. On the other hand some people may tolerate it if it's (PSSR2/3) close in quality to DLSS4:
It's surprisingly... not absolutely tragic.
Bojji
Member
Of course he think it
I guess you won't make fun about Switch 2 low resolutions anymore.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
mckmas8808 As I said in the other thread, Sony is getting the devs ready with tools and documentation.
MLID keeps referring to it as PS6 handheld. Seems Sony is going to mandate support if "they NEED us to support it directly eventually."
The number of PS5 low power mode patching is low, Sony is getting annoyed, so they will 100% mandate support if adoption is too low.
Just because MLiD refers to it as a PS6 handheld doesn't mean Sony does.
I told yall Kepler wouldn't know if Sony will mandate this handheld to play every PS6 game. He can't know that. And I'm not even sure Sony knows at this point. But they also barely mandate anything, so why mandate this?
Series S SUCKS! And I hope Sony understands that. I'm sure Mark Cerny has told them that the "problem" with the Series S
Hold on.................NO WAY Sony will release three "consoles" at once.
- PS handheld
- PS 6s
- PS 6x
How can anyone believe Sony would do this? What would be the point of having so many pieces of hardware?
Why do yall keep calling it the PS6 portable?
vivftp
Member
It uses the same hardware base as the PS6 itself. It makes sense that it's be a PS6 Portable so they can co-market it a part of next gen.
And next gen I think we get:
PS6 digital
PS6 disc
PS6 Portable
PS6 Lite (box with the guts of the Portable)
PS6 Pro in the middle of the gen
Boy bawang
Member
My understanding is that this is what Sony wanted to release.
If it is marketed as a PS5 portable while releasing at he same time as the PS6, then SOny is even more retarded.
And if it is marketed as its own thing like a PSP-3, then get ready for sub 20 millions sales considering how everyone already struggles with dev times.
PlayStaytion
Member
Be anything but don't make Microsoft's box look generic.
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viveks86
Member
The thing about a 1080p game on a PS6 is it is likely path traced at 30 fps (quality mode) or heavily ray traced at 60 (performance mode).
Just halving the framerate of performance mode gives you 2x as well as covers for CPU throttling. Then apply 1/4th the resolution as the absolute minimum. Limiting the RT further to just RTGI should maintain the overall look of the game as well. So 540p30 with PSSR 2.0 (or 3.0) upscaled to 1080p may actually be viable.
This is assuming 1080p is the bare minimum next gen. Who knows what UE 6 will do to this math? lol
So I share the same concerns, but as long as they don't design the handheld with some weird bottleneck, it might actually be ok this time around. With a 60 fps mode increasingly being available on every game AND AI upscaling, they may be able to avoid a Series S situation. The problem with the Series S is that you can't afford to hit rock bottom resolutions to overcome the memory/bandwidth bottleneck as AI upscaling isn't viable.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Clueless.
The reason why they are sling-shotting off of PS5 is so they start out with a complete catalogue. Also being x64 based they can pull in from the larger PC market as it won't require too much code refactoring.
The reason why Vita failed was that it was just an outlier tech wise. Noone wanted the risk of developing for a system with all sorts of bespoke features that were simply not applicable to anything else, and crucially at a scale greater than typical for mobile.
This thing is going to be like a Steam Deck on steroids, that they can price competitively because it remains inside their walled-garden licensing model.
I doubt they'd ever consider opening it up to the extent that it could work as a Steam Deck equivalent, but the reality is that the hardware will be functionally equivalent and capable. At the end of the day its just an AMD x64 mobile APU running a Linux derived OS... What does that sound like?
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mayham2199
Member
To be fair the Series S was a mess created by MS that could have been easily fixed by just giving it more RAM. That was really the whole issue with the Series S.
With all these other low power handhelds coming out and the Nintendo Switch 2 it doesn't really matter anymore. Devs are going to focus on all those devices now. The PS6 handheld will just be one more of those devices. The best you can hope for is that the handheld fails and Sony devs no longer have to focus on it but every other dev will still be focusing on low powered handhelds for their future games.
Felessan
Member
It doesn't look very well on 27" 4K, but on 8" it looks surprisingly... normal
Being a small screen hide a lot of artefacts and imperfections (like people play just fine on SteamDeck and Sw1/Sw2)
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
PS6 handled
PaintTinJr
Member
I'd recommend going back and listening to Cerny's technical seminar on the PS5 Pro to see the simple algebra of system power in action to see why this will be mandated for PS6 native games.
If you've only got 160watts of power (230watts max) and Moore's law gains are slowing to 1.5x against cost and you've just cut that further by using 35% less power versus OG PS5, and you need to add high quality AI upscaling and PT denoising capability and best in class next gen PT capability as your generational leap, the algebra says you need to lower the native PS5 logic/rasterized game power use on the new silicon to as little as possible just to have the processing power headroom to power upscaling/denoising and high quality PT in whatever is left over after you've added new PS6 logic/raster improvements.
The fact that it would nicely align with low power and releasing a PS6 portable too is just the happenstance that makes a PS6 portable a easy viable option, now IMO with devs able to hit two birds with one stone.
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1920x1080=2.073.600
854x480=409.920
2.073.600/409.920 =5,0585
4k is 4x times 1080p. 1080p is 4x times 540p
It's pretty clear what a handheld using PSSR 2 is going to scale from 480p and 540p internal resolution in demanded games. They can lower the framerate too and lower the settings.
The problem with Series S is not even the CPU or GPU, it's the memory pool.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
All they have to say is it can play PS1, PS2, PS4, PS5, and some PS6 games. Calling it to the PSP2 wouldn't be a problem.
StereoVsn
Gold Member
I don't see PS6 requirements being pushed, but PS5 is possible.
At the same time, right this moment, I can grab my Legion Go S Z1E (not even Z2E), and can play vast majority of games on PC at palatable frame rate and res. I can play KCD2 or BG3 just fine (but really prefer my PC due to format).
Like others said, what hobbled XSS was paltry RAM allocation, but the CPU/GPU. As long as Sony is reasonable about RAM (unfortunately right now that's a big ???), it should work out.
Still trying to understand what the market is for a portable ps5/ps6 when a ps portal and ps5 at home will give you much better performance. Now if you dont have network connectivity....but that tends to be fairly rare these days.
Gta6 on ps5 pro at home, portal on the go. The hardware is already out.
A portable ps6 thats some mega gimped ps5....for presumably much more than portal...seems like a surefire failure.
AmuroChan
Member
I love the Portal. I use it all the time to play games while watching sports. HOWEVER, I travel quite a bit for work and I would absoultely purchase a PS handheld that can play games natively so I can bring it with me when I'm travelling.
Whats stopping you traveling with your portal? Mine works fine via Verizon 4g hotspot.
AmuroChan
Member
I've tried it and the experience has been a mixed bag. So I rather just have something that runs the games natively.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
They will force it to be supported.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
At a high level everything you said here sort of makes sense to me. But I refuse to believe it will work out that way, because at some point physics should matter right?
Your interpretation on what Mark Cerny said about the future of hardware technology and how things are slowing down and it has become harder and harder to get more performance between each generation makes sense. I for the life of me can't understand why sony would put out 2 devices at the same time that would be forced to play the same games when clearly one does not have the ability to do with the other can do.
There's no way somebody can explain to me how just lowering the resolution to 540p and then using fsr4 or pssr2 and upscaling it to 1080p would look and feel the same as that same game running on the PlayStation 6 with raytraced lighting, shadows, and AO rendered at 1080p and being upscaled to 4K at 60 frames per second can possibly work on both devices. Especially when that handheld device is operating at 20w whereas the PlayStation 6 is operating at 200w.
Does what I'm saying make any sense to anybody here? I mean ... That's an order of magnitude more wattage available to being used for the full console compared to the handheld. I feel like I'm living in Alice the Wonderland with people trying to convince me that the impossible is possible.
PS5 is Zen2 8 cores/16 threads with 6.5 cores/13 threads available for games and 1.5 cores/3 threads reserved for OS.
PS6 handheld is 4 cores/8 threads Zen6c available for games and 2 cores/4 threads Zen6LP for OS.
PS6 is 8 cores/16 threads Zen6c available for games and 2 cores/4 threads Zen6LP for OS.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I'm certain the next-Gen PS Portable will also be able to do the same thing the Portal does today. It'll probably have WiFi 7 in it and be able to direct connect to the PS6 for even better streaming performance.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Thanks for that specification. That's awesome that the PS6 will be able to use the full Zen6c for games, while another processor is used for the OS.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Reduced performance cost normally means the highest quality but for that given hardware. This was what I was trying to explain with people trying to distance "tiny dlss" on fixed hardware as separate from "dlss".
This already happens though doesn't it? with a far bigger delta than 180W. Take a fully pathtraced cyberpunk on a 600W 5090 (GPU only) vs a steamdeck or switch. Severe cutbacks on the handheld is the answer. As long as they don't try to force it on people I think they will be OK. They can have incentives instead. Maybe even give a discount on percentage cut if released on both for the first couple of years.
The first 2 years are likely to be crossgen anyway so as long as they can have PS5 games ported relatively easily (as long as they don't fuck something up like Series S RAM did) they should be OK building that installbase with games support without forcing the other hardware to be tied to it. Then give devs the choice. No different to how the steamdeck works currently but shitty experiences wouldn't make the curated store as much.
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PlayStaytion
Member
X3D must be applied here as well as chiplet design as the bare minimum requirements for next gen hardware, otherwise, it's a vanilla and not the main Sony box. Imagine X3D chip been utilized with Cerny a %100, it's a win/win situation.
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memoryman3
Member
The PS6 handheld is going to have 6x less compute/memory bandwidth as the PS6 console. At least the Series S kept up with the One X. PS6 handheld is going to be weaker than PS5.
If a game is 1080p 30fps on PS6 then it's just not going to run on the handheld acceptably. Even 60fps games might struggle.
Doesn't Canis have lower memory bandwidth and less cores available for games than XSS? Some games might struggle no?
memoryman3
Member
This theory doesn't make sense to me as a handheld chip could easily be repurposed for a gaming laptop, like Magnus will be for PC.
Zathalus
Member
Memory bandwidth is going to be between 205 GB/s and 230 GB/s depending on what flavor of LPDDR5x Sony uses. It will also leverage Universal Compression and a large (relative to the GPU) MALL cache. So memory bandwidth will favor the PS6 handheld vs the XSS.
CPU should still favor the XSS, as it will be 4c/8t vs 7c/14t. Much better Zen 6c vs Zen 2 but I assume the PS6P will have a CPU clock disadvantage as well.
DJTaurus
Member
I found it better to skip all ps5 games produced the last 3 years and play them enhanced on PS6 launch
Its just a matter of patience and better money spending imho.
Physiognomonics
Member
There won't be PS6 only games for years, maybe 4 or 5 years throughout the PS6 gen. And all big GAAS games (the games most played on PS) will still be supported on PS5 (so the handheld) for the whole PS6 generation.
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